Back to the struggle at Monarch

[M60A3TTS]

After having put this game down for some time, I'm back trying to figure out why I'm having such a tough time at Monarch level using the BUG/BAT mod.

I'm posting a new game as Frederick on Pangea. Standard map and speed.

Here is the start

The scout went south to reveal ivory. No second food source spotted but I decide to settle in place and hope for one.

Going with SIP proved the right call as a pig tile showed up to the northeast. Started a worker and set research to AH. The scout headed east and found some nice gold hills.

At the end of 10 turns, the scout ended by popping a hut for gold. Unfortunately the tribal villagers didn't mention the bear sitting nearby. Well he died in the service of the fatherland, all 21 tiles of it.

Here is the map at the end of turn 10. Three city locations marked for consideration.

The frozen tundra is in the north, a mountain range to the west. The Khmer made themselves known, although I couldn't see a unit. I suppose he's part of Ghost Recon.

AH in 2. Worker in 5, then warrior. Priority will be pasturizing with the worker and start BW as next tech for chops/pre-chops & slavery.

 

[nate46]

you have a silly amount of gold mines this game.

I don't think you should build the deer city, at least not until really late. building another gold city to the south would be more profitable.

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

Shame your scout died, we could do with seeing more of the surrounding map.

4 gold mines, but 3 of them are desert hills which makes them less appealing to settle at all costs. I'd send the first warrior SW to explore the wet corn site a bit better and probably settle that first.

On Monarch you could probably chop out The Oracle for CoL (not a bad idea given that you're PHI, have 2 early happy resources and some decent food around). In that case I'd probably settle first on the desert 4S1E of Berlin and work the PH gold to help push on for the Oracle techs.

Capital has good long term cottaging potential; we really need to explore the map some more before we can figure out how we intend to beat it, though.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Turn 20 complete. One new item on the map, horse is discovered in the east, 2 tiles above where I tagged Gold City. Capital will border pop in 30 turns.

Worker went out and pasteurized the sheep. The pig hill is next. Warrior in queue, due in 10. BW in 5.

Buddhism was fiadl in 2480BC, but not by Sury. No other contacts to report.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Start of turn 31.

Roosevelt stopped by for a fireside chat. Ethiopia followed soon thereafter and proclaimed itself the capital of Buddhism. America and Khmer are worst enemies already.

There are 2 warriors built. I sent the first one SW per C2R but not much more to see other than a new FP tile near corn city. It will reveal more next turn. Second warrior send SSE?

First forest chop in with these options for the capital:

Warrior in 1.
Worker in 4.
Settler in 8.

Capital happy cap is 4 of 5. Border pop in 21.

Wheel in 1. Pottery would be next in 9. No marble visible yet, so with Roosevelt at least around, not sure if teching for Oracle a good option.

Start of turn 31

 

[Fippy]

ouch you are growing too much before building a settler, with nice city spots close (especially gold cities need some time) there's no benefit in doing that, forget happy cap.

 

[M60A3TTS]

ouch you are growing too much before building a settler, with nice city spots close (especially gold cities need some time) there's no benefit in doing that, forget happy cap.

OK, so that means whipping a settler next. Got it.

 

[Fippy]

yep, hmm with being size 5 almost you would have the size 6 3-pop whip option as well now.
Chop would work either way into settler now, then you could 2 pop whip or wait and get the overflow. Your pop 4 food bin already filled?

It's not that bad, no worries..slavery gets you out
I think both options might be about even, you will want a 2nd worker quick so 1 can stay with your Cap and another can improve corn (wet corn should almost always be city 2, imo).

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

As Fippy says, I think you could have gone for a more standard pop 3 Settler here.

Still, we don't appear to be under much settling pressure; and with pretty good food in the capital, going for a 4/5 pop first settler followed by 6 pop whipping the next settler is usually only a couple of turns slower to 3 cities.

How much of an issue are barbs on Monarch? If this was Immortal, I'd be considering settling the horses ASAP to get some barb defense chariots out.

I think your tech path so far is fine - although having gone TW -> Pottery, that suggests no Oracle attempt. I'd be heading straight to Priesthood once BW was in if I was going to go for it. Don't worry about marble for the Oracle, it nearly always takes too long to divert to masonry and hook it up. Just chop it/whip overflow it out.

Perhaps you mean in the bigger picture? No marble makes the Aesthetics -> Music route unappealing, and gives less value to Oracling CoL in a sense; but running Caste and Pacifism a little later could be a good move. There's also trade bait value in CoL, plus the chance to infect Sury or Roosevelt with Confucianism.

Both a HA rush and an elepult attack are possible here, but we don't know how far away our rivals are yet, and how much decent land we have to REx into...

Have you decided where your 2nd city is going yet?

 

[Fippy]

Well he has much time for the Oracle on Monarch, i think pottery here looks very good first.

 

[M60A3TTS]

yep, hmm with being size 5 almost you would have the size 6 3-pop whip option as well now.
Chop would work either way into settler now, then you could 2 pop whip or wait and get the overflow. Your pop 4 food bin already filled?

It is at 17/28. Food +10. Growth in 2.

 

[Fippy]

Ah okay, i would 2 pop whip then and chop more for another worker.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Have you decided where your 2nd city is going yet?

Corn City seems the place to go, but then that raises the question whether agriculture comes after pottery. Pottery will actually take 13 turns currently because of the fishing prereq taking 4.
Then agri in 6.

If I go gold city, it will need to take the pig from the capital if it is to grow faster than unimproved FPs. So that location seems the likely candidate for #3.

 

[Fippy]

Oh Agri, yep that should be even before finishing Wheel.
I think you could not tech pottery without anyways, no fishing for germans?

Usually it's best to get another more powerful (food or hammers special like copper) city before a commerce city that needs help growing.

Corn has the benefits of also bringing more floodplains (or sharing them), so with pottery it's commerce as well.

edit: you need either fishing or Agri, can skip fishing and it works well that you need Agri for corn.

It's only 1 turn but i would delay the wheel in favor of Agri now, city will be connected without roads.

 

[Izuul]

It would take 6T to do the S6 settler whip (4T to grow, 1T into settler, then whip) and the granary isn't available yet to put the OF into. OF would have to go into something like a settler/worker.

Size 4 whip would be settler in 3T i believe. Should have 20 chop hammers + 12 HPT of settler production so you can get the 40+ hammers needed for the 2-pop whip in 2T, whip, and the settler will be out in 3T.

Could also just build the settler at S4, but that would take 7T unless you want to to invest a 2nd chop to make it 5T.

Edit: S4 whip seems like the clear winner to me. You only lose 2 FPs and retain your good food tiles. The city will regrow very quickly.

Yeah Germany starts with Hunting and Mining i believe. Ag is definitely a much better choice than Fishing. Starting with Hunting means the riverside Ivory could be improved at some point fairly early. Maybe the corn city could work that until Ag is finished and corn is improved. The extra happy would allow you to be slightly more aggressive with the worker/settler whips as well.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Start of Turn 32.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere...sort of.

Meet Gilgamesh, self proclaimed leader of the Hindu faith. Zara of the Buddhist persuasion is his worst enemy as one might expect. Meanwhile, Roosevelt and Sury are worst enemies as well. Could make for some interesting diplo if this lasts.

Sumeria's border is clearly visible in the south.

I'd propose to 2-whip the settler and head for Corn City. Then chop worker #2.

With all these civs already met, it seems I'm somewhere in the middle of the map.

Next tech is now starting. So fishing -> pottery (13) for economy or agri (6) for growth?

 

[Izuul]

Literally the only benefit from Fishing is that it's 2T faster. There's no water in sight. Getting that wet corn online is worth the 2T and you always need Agriculture. You will want to farm more stuff later. You have 3-4 FPs outside of your capitol that could be candidates for farms. At the very least your gold city will certainly want a farmed FP to help work more of those 0F gold tiles.

 

[Fippy]

If you are taking in-game tips into consideration, like which tech next or what cities can build..
our best tip will be: ignore those, as if they are not here

Some techs are marked as economy, some growth and so on but it's very inaccurate.
Economy is an empty word so early in your game, what would an empire be without food?
Food leads to everything else in Civ4, as general conclusion.

Or maybe you are not aware that sometimes there are 2-3 techs leading to others, but you only need 1 of them. Often the case with ancient techs, writing for example can be reached by either pottery, AH or priesthood.

Having more than 1 of them gives you a little research bonus, but not enuf to tech what you do not need.

You have the choice of either Agri or fishing if you want pottery.
Here we have 6f corn, one of the best tiles. But no water, so your choice should be Agri to improve your resource. And no fishing cos research time is valuable, no seafood or water around.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Thanks to everyone for all the advice so far.

Yes, agri was where I was leaning as well. Glad to see I have that part right.

 

[nate46]

i think growing to size 5 before building a settler is fine on this map. he's got two food resources so he'll grow fast, and lots of good tiles to work even unimproved.

should have mined the plains hill forest (takes 7 turns) to delay the chop until size 5. Its really awkward to stop growth like that, halfway between 4 and 5. should either start building the settler immediately at 4, or grow all the way to 5. but i think you know that, you just mistimed the chop.