Back to the struggle at Monarch

[M60A3TTS]

i think growing to size 5 before building a settler is fine on this map. he's got two food resources so he'll grow fast, and lots of good tiles to work even unimproved.

should have mined the plains hill forest (takes 7 turns) to delay the chop until size 5. Its really awkward to stop growth like that, halfway between 4 and 5. should either start building the settler immediately at 4, or grow all the way to 5. but i think you know that, you just mistimed the chop.

It's been so long since I started playing this game and learning its finer points that I've forgotten some things. Why would I start building the settler immediately at 4? Does it have to do with the size of the food box?

I'm sitting on turn 34 at pop 4 and the food bin is 17/28 and a +10 surplus. I am 50/100 to the settler. I can 2-pop whip for an overflow of 10, and I can also complete a chop for 20. Do I whip now, and chop next turn? Or chop now and 1-pop whip. I can't decide!

 

[M60A3TTS]

Double post- I think it's better to 2-pop whip than 1 since both give 1 unhappy citizen.

 

[MegaLurker]

It's been so long since I started playing this game and learning its finer points that I've forgotten some things. Why would I start building the settler immediately at 4? Does it have to do with the size of the food box?

Yes. You will grow from size 2 back to size 4 faster than you will from size 3 back to size 5. Whipping at a smaller size has less opportunity cost. That you're growing onto unimproved tiles is also a factor. Whipping away citizens working unimproved tiles is much more efficient, assuming you've managed your happy cap.

I'm sitting on turn 34 at pop 4 and the food bin is 17/28 and a +10 surplus. I am 50/100 to the settler. I can 2-pop whip for an overflow of 10, and I can also complete a chop for 20. Do I whip now, and chop next turn? Or chop now and 1-pop whip. I can't decide!

I would whip now just because 1-pop whipping when you don't have a lot of excess happiness is not very good. But you should have had the worker that's chopping improving the ivory instead. You don't want your chops timed like this so that you have to choose between wasting worker turns (to pre-chop, do something else, then move back onto the forest to chop) or efficient whipping.

And you want to time your 2+ pop whips to regrow one population as soon as possible (in the case of a settler or worker, that means regrowing the next turn).

 

[nate46]

these are really math questions not civ questions, lol.

 

[Fippy]

Nate is playing..different than most of us, Marathon and so ~~

Size 4 & 6 are let's call them whipping points for settlers.
You use either 2 or 3 pop for either 60 or 90h.
Size 5 is just in between.

Settlers you want out quickly, at least in the start.
When you delay, you delay your next cities development (and they are further behind your Cap anyways).

So waiting for size 5 usually has no benefits, unless you start with very good tiles like 2 gold mines that you do not want to whip away.
Why delay the new city, that question should be on your mind.
Worth for another floodplains worked? Nopes, cos the new city has corn instead.

Yep you should whip and use the chop for your 2nd worker that you build afterwards.
You want 2 workers, 1 for your Cap and one for your new city.
New cities would build workers very slow.

 

[nate46]

And you want to time your 2+ pop whips to regrow one population as soon as possible (in the case of a settler or worker, that means regrowing the next turn).

in this case, he may actually have been correct to fill his food bar halfway when size 4.

personally i wouldn't whip this city yet. those flood plains are nice tiles even unimproved. Also, he saves half a turn of anarchy by not switching to bronze working until the first settler is created. Whip 2nd settler, maybe.

 

[nate46]

Nate is playing..different than most of us, Marathon and so ~~

This has nothing to do with marathon. doesn't make any difference in this case.

The reason i grow this city to 5 is cause he has two food resources so he's going to grow extremely quickly, and good tiles to work for all 5. (ones with commerce).

If he had only one food resource, or if he didn't have the flood plains (nice commerce squares), then i wouldn't say to grow out.

we're really arguing over almost nothing though... what size he grows this city or whether he whips or not makes very little difference in how fast he develops.

 

[Fippy]

It's just not how you should play, if you whip settlers for 2 pop you do that at size 4 unless you have so many great tiles that 5 is better.
Floodplains are 3f, they are not those great tiles.

When i whip from 4 to 2 i am back at my 2 good tiles here, sheep and pigs.
Every new pop costs more food..these are all well estabilished strats over years and years here.

 

[MegaLurker]

Nate is playing..different than most of us, Marathon and so ~~

Size 4 & 6 are let's call them whipping points for settlers.
You use either 2 or 3 pop for either 60 or 90h.
Size 5 is just in between.

Settlers you want out quickly, at least in the start.
When you delay, you delay your next cities development (and they are further behind your Cap anyways).

So waiting for size 5 usually has no benefits, unless you start with very good tiles like 2 gold mines that you do not want to whip away.
Why delay the new city, that question should be on your mind.
Worth for another floodplains worked? Nopes, cos the new city has corn instead.

Yep you should whip and use the chop for your 2nd worker that you build afterwards.
You want 2 workers, 1 for your Cap and one for your new city.
New cities would build workers very slow.

This is a great, succinct analysis. Compare the number of turns it takes you to grow from size 4 to size 5 without a granary to the number of turns it takes you to complete the settler at both sizes. You'll find that growing to size 5 gets the settler out slower than starting it at size 4. So that extra tile better be worth it. In this case that extra tile is another unimproved floodplain. Not worth it. Remember that each extra population point consumes 2 food, so growing onto an unimproved floodplain is only giving you +1 food, +1 commerce.

Goldmines are the perfect example because they slow your growth but are still worth working because of that sweet, sweet commerce.

 

[MegaLurker]

This has nothing to do with marathon. doesn't make any difference in this case.

The reason i grow this city to 5 is cause he has two food resources so he's going to grow extremely quickly, and good tiles to work for all 5. (ones with commerce).

If he had only one food resource, or if he didn't have the flood plains (nice commerce squares), then i wouldn't say to grow out.

we're really arguing over almost nothing though... what size he grows this city or whether he whips or not makes very little difference in how fast he develops.

I don't see how un-cottaged floodplains qualify as "nice commerce squares."

 

[M60A3TTS]

Turn 40

2nd city down, both workers farming the corn. The capital is recovering pop. America's border spotted in the west. Another red border spotted southeast, but that is an unmet civ. Russia or Japan maybe.

No new civ contacts or religions gained/founded. No wonders yet.

 

[nate46]

Every new pop costs more food..these are all well estabilished strats over years and years here.

yeah but working flood plains = more food surplus per turn, which makes up for that.

It hardly matters, either way you do it.

aaahhh you're going to make me math this out explicitly. Let's actually math this out.

strategy #1: start him out at size 4 with 7 surplus food in the food bank.

scenario 1: whip two settlers while chopping non-stop.

0: anarchy
1: 0/100
2: forest chopped: 32/100 in the bank.
3: 44/100 in the bank. Whip a settler.
4: 7/24 food stocks with +8 food per turn, with enough hammer overflow for a free warrior or something.
5: 15/24
6: 30/100 settler (worker chops a forest)
7: 23/24
8: 7/26 with +9 fpt
9: 16/26
10: 61/100 (worker chops a forest)
11: 25/26 (unfortunate. He was right to put food in the food bank at size 4!)
12: whip the 2nd settler with a bunch of overflow.
13: 2nd settler done.

scenario 2: grow to 5, make a mine then chop more, and slow build the first settler and whip the second.

0: 7/28 food
1: 17/28 food
2: 27/28 food
3: 0/100 settler
4: 13/100 settler
5: 56/100. plains hill Mine complete (along with the chop that comes with it)
6: 70/100.
7: 84/100.
8: 98/100.
9: settler done. forest chopped.
10: anarchy
11: 32/100
12: 46/100. whip a settler with a some overflow.
13: settler done.

so, assuming i didn't mess up the math, you get the 2nd settlers at the same turn no matter which strat you use. The advantage of my method is that the cap is 1 higher pop and better developed when I'm done whipping, and i've saved a forest for later. and i've accumulated a bit more commerce. The advantage of your strat is you have more whip overflow to work with and you have 5 extra turns of growth in city #2.

edit: i'm pretty sure there actually is a math error in the above... but can anyone else find it? why do i spend so much time arguing with people on the internet over 10 year old video games...

Its pretty much a wash, isn't it? aren't we arguing over almost nothing?

 

[SittinDown]

I'm learning, so take my input with a grain of salt. (see my other thread where Fippy and Nate (and a bunch of others) are giving me tons of good advice.

...but I would whip here. ...you'll have the new city a turn earlier, and you'll be able to apply the chop to something else. a 2 pop whip always seems better than a 1 pop whip, since the happiness cost is the same, and you've got plenty of food around to grow back quick.

i defer to others on the wisdom of working a FP or not. but new cities earlier is usually better (provided you can pay the maintenance). sometimes just a turn or two early on hake a huge difference... in the other thread, I've seen how making what seem like small adjustments to my gameplay has made huge differences in the outcomes. (40 versus 60 more beakers at turn 71, for instance, just by rearranging chops and teching pottery before writing).

 

[nate46]

edit: nevermind i forgot he was playing with huts on.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Still turn 40, switched capital from warrior to settler to avoid unhappiness next turn and get the next city in queue. Once the 2 workers finish the farm, they can go back and chop another tile at the capital. Pottery will then be in so I have the ability to start cottaging FPs if not chopping.

 

[MegaLurker]

yeah but working flood plains = more food surplus per turn, which makes up for that.

It hardly matters, either way you do it.

aaahhh you're going to make me math this out explicitly. Let's actually math this out.

strategy #1: start him out at size 4 with 7 surplus food in the food bank.

scenario 1: whip two settlers while chopping non-stop.

0: anarchy
1: 0/100
2: forest chopped: 32/100 in the bank.
3: 44/100 in the bank. Whip a settler.
4: 7/24 food stocks with +8 food per turn, with enough hammer overflow for a free warrior or something.
5: 15/24
6: 30/100 settler (worker chops a forest)
7: 23/24
8: 7/26 with +9 fpt
9: 16/26
10: 61/100 (worker chops a forest)
11: 25/26 (unfortunate. He was right to put food in the food bank at size 4!)
12: whip the 2nd settler with a bunch of overflow.
13: 2nd settler done.

scenario 2: grow to 5, make a mine then chop more, and slow build the first settler and whip the second.

0: 7/28 food
1: 17/28 food
2: 27/28 food
3: 0/100 settler
4: 13/100 settler
5: 56/100. plains hill Mine complete (along with the chop that comes with it)
6: 70/100.
7: 84/100.
8: 98/100.
9: settler done. forest chopped.
10: anarchy
11: 32/100
12: 46/100. whip a settler with a some overflow.
13: settler done.

so, assuming i didn't mess up the math, you get the 2nd settlers at the same turn no matter which strat you use. The advantage of my method is that the cap is 1 higher pop and better developed when I'm done whipping, and i've saved a forest for later. and i've accumulated a bit more commerce. The advantage of your strat is you have more whip overflow to work with and you have 5 extra turns of growth in city #2.

edit: i'm pretty sure there actually is a math error in the above... but can anyone else find it? why do i spend so much time arguing with people on the internet over 10 year old video games...

Its pretty much a wash, isn't it? aren't we arguing over almost nothing?

Whip overflow can be put into the second settler. You also need to consider lost growth and production from settling your second city later.

 

[nate46]

Whip overflow can be put into the second settler. You also need to consider lost growth and production from settling your second city later.

this stuff hurts my brain anyway. who knows how many math errors are in my posts, when i make posts like this, LOL. Can we just all agree that whichever way is better, the difference is less than 1 full turn of development?

 

[nate46]

you can also save turns here and there by switching to scout or barracks production and then timing your warrior to complete the same turn as you reach your desired pop, putting max hammer overflow into the settler you'll start producing next turn and minimizing your food overflow. This can save you a turn if you only plan to whip the city once.

 

[M60A3TTS]

This will wrap up tonight's activities.

Turn 51.

The red civ revealed this jolly fellow.

Spoiler :

For diplo consideration, all the known civ leaders can plot at pleased, and both Stalin and Gilgamesh have low peace weights. Sury does too, but his border isn't visible. Quite possible he's on the other side of one of our neighbors. Roosevelt to the west and Zara wherever he is are more inclined towards peace.

The capital border popped, so horses can be brought online. That needs to happen pretty quick as barbs are spawning now.

Finished pottery and writing. Next tech is in its first turn. Math for better chops is what is set as a placeholder for the moment.

Spoiler :

Cities 2 & 3 in place. Added some tags for new cities to round out the first ring. All civs only show 2 cities currently. It should not be too difficult for Germany to reach 10 at least before things get crowded, but I'm hesitant to pump out settlers into the wilderness until the first chariot rolls out. That should be in a few turns.

 

[nate46]

You're doing quite well so far. Are you sure you're only a monarch player?

but as for planning ahead... I think your planned cities (except the lake city) are total crap, and you should research horseback riding and kill gilgamesh with horse archers. He probably has better land than you do.