Balance Feedback

I don't know if it is a balance issue or a bug :

in the victory conditions I had (for religious)
FoL 12%, Esus 0%
Esus is present in at least 10 cities out of 17 cities in the whole world.

I think it might be related to the fact that CoE in any city is hidden from the other civs if they don't have CoE as state religion.
Thus it is not counted toward religion victory.

So I don't know if the victory condition doesn't work for CoE (bug)
or if CoE is deprived of victory condition (balance issue).

actually, esus is sole religion in at least 5 cities, 3 of those being some of the 5 biggest cities.
esus is currently present in all the biggest cities, as any other city was war-reduced.

But 0 is quite small
especially as the other religions are : FoL (3-4 cities) Empy (2-3 cities) and OO (1city) (no Rok nor Order nor AV)

Yes, I think is a bug. In my game, I have CoE, it says that 29% of all cities have CoE (About 30 cities). However, AV, has an average of 14 cities in all the map, and it says 0%. To sum up, it says CoE 29% and AV 0%, despite having a sizeable amount of cities with AV. Something is broken there, perhaps.

EDIT: What you think about this?
About pillaging, I was always wondering if someone could take a look at pillage. What about,instead of the improvement being destroyed when pillaged, it gets the "pillaged improvement" tag? (Like epic lairs, but not from exploration), so it is not removed, but it's benefits are halted (Or removed) during a set period of turns (to simulate the reconstruction from villagers). Such reconstruction should be able to be hurried by workers, and tiles that aren't worked by cities could take much more time to "heal".
Ongoing civ5 has regarded the pillage issue in a similar way (Gameplay factors, from what I've read).
 
Hi there, new poster here, actually... day late and a dollar short on the elf brainstorming going on before, but I had a suggestion for something to address the issue with the elves and ancient forests and small cities and all that.

Perhaps there could be a unique elf improvement a la Dwarven Mines, maybe a Treetop Cottage or something similar, that would progress to Treetop Hamlet, Treetop Village, and Treetop Town. Presumably they would have to be spaced apart a bit, like Dwarven Mines, and could only be built in forests. The testers/dev team would be able to find a proper yield for them to enable increased commerce/production while making it easier to maintain the small city goal that they have for the elves. It'd also let you make FoL a more feasible religious choice for non-elves once the Orchards are in play, but would also give elves that unique edge that they currently don't have.

Anyway, thanks a lot for all your work, guys, amazing mod. My friend and I have been having a blast with it for months now, you've got a great thing going. :goodjob:
 
Hi there, new poster here, actually... day late and a dollar short on the elf brainstorming going on before, but I had a suggestion for something to address the issue with the elves and ancient forests and small cities and all that.

Perhaps there could be a unique elf improvement a la Dwarven Mines, maybe a Treetop Cottage or something similar, that would progress to Treetop Hamlet, Treetop Village, and Treetop Town. Presumably they would have to be spaced apart a bit, like Dwarven Mines, and could only be built in forests. The testers/dev team would be able to find a proper yield for them to enable increased commerce/production while making it easier to maintain the small city goal that they have for the elves. It'd also let you make FoL a more feasible religious choice for non-elves once the Orchards are in play, but would also give elves that unique edge that they currently don't have.

Anyway, thanks a lot for all your work, guys, amazing mod. My friend and I have been having a blast with it for months now, you've got a great thing going. :goodjob:
That's not a bad idea, really, and one I, for one, have considered before. I suppose the difficulty would be with what they should give, though.
 
Mazatl Wyverns should definitely have a tech requirement, I saw one at turn 87, and since they have 12str, is totally OP early game.

BTW, and what about my pillaging idea?
 
Umm. They do. They require the Mazatl to cast their worldspell.

But that's as easy as rushing to priesthood, build 12 wyvern guardians, cast the spell, and then you can build wyverns with 12:strength:.
And let's say that 12:strength: units are mostly late game. And priesthood, if rushed is early game. So, IMO, Wyverns (not the guardian) should require a tech, animal handling or the like, as examples.

EDIT: Hum, eh, wait a minute, in my game Mazatl don't even have priesthood nor any Wyvern guardians, still they have a Wyvern... weird... I suppose is a bug... never mind...

EDIT: I have a complain about Stephano's world effect: It's absurd! 5 unhappy to all cities? Even those isolated cities that-don't-know-that-stephanos-is-there?. Do you know the massive effect it have to the entire gameplay 5 unexpected unhappy faces? Even they say that nearby units are scaring them, but... oh, Stephanos is roaming an island at the other part of the globe. How ... my citizens are supposed to know that? Let's remove that feature, please... (Or at LEAST make it to have sense and put a range check between Stephanos and nearby cities, not worldwide).

EDIT: Now I have a complain about Influence-driven-war. Sometimes, when a strong unit kill another unit near a city, it shift influence +90% or 100%. Practically, that city culture is reduced to 0 (No culture) for a turn, and more than 90% of it citizens are converted to the other civ. I don't think it should work like that, honestly. (Since when, after you've killed an archer, the entire city became Illians citizens?)
 
Hi, I posted this in another thread, but I think it is more appropriate here.

I know that RifE is not meant to be perfectly balanced for multi player, in fact, one of the reasons I came to prefer it over Orbis is that everything is a bit more extreme (!!! ) than in RifE. However, there are a couple of civs that I feel could use a slight nerf for multi player purposes. Also, I know that much of this may have been mentioned in other posts, but this is primarly from MP games, so I thought you might wanna know.

1) Mazatl: in mid- to endgame they sky-rocket because of Lost Lands combined with 5 jungle tiles. new cities begin with +20 and +20 because of trade routes, and as opposed to Raitlor (Illian leader) or Malakim who have similar mechanics, they got a bunch of trade-improving buildings. Yes, I know they must give up foreign trade, but I had nonetheless cities with 40+ pop at around turn 200 even with the new unhealth mechanics. Maybe it could be scaled down a bit, I mean, they already get ridiculous amounts of from the jungles, maybe just give them a bonus from trade and no additional . Oh, and the wyverns are a bit imba, maybe not give them 9 of them.

Before I move on to the next OP civ I would like to say that I like that workers improve the land so slow in this version. It might be a little bit too slow (speed it up 25% perhaps), but all in all it's a great improvement to the game.

2) Mekara Order: With workers taking 20+ turns to improve the terrain, mekara's early horde of familiars and a little later horde of Sluga gives them a lot, I mean a lot, of momentum in the early game. A momentum I have abused every time to expand like a madman early on, which their economy can handle because they got free militia units. Unless you get attacked by Mazatl (which I did once and lost, damn you Mazatl wyverns and damn you Mekara's Lack Of Rangers), you pretty much own the game. However, I feel that if the normal worker speed is increased then Mekara will lose some of it's edge and actually become balanced Awesome civ design btw.

I will of course mention the new unhealth system. I think everything has been said: it often it does not even pay off to let your cities grow, the AI handle the system like a scared goose in a violin shop (weird analogy) and unless you're expansive your early growth is non-existent. Hopefully this will be changed a bit, like upping the inherent health-bonus in new cities or perhaps let cities bellow 12 pop only give one per pop. I dunno. I'm confident you'll think of something. Which brings me to the most OP civ in MP RifE...

3) Legion of D'Tesh: They were underpowered in the last patch, yes, and the changes to them are fitting and fun, however, they are the only civ unaffected by the new unhealth system (except Infernal and Frozen), so now they grow just as fast as everyone else in the early game (faster with a bit of luck and some watchers/hunters). They get a ridiculous tile-yield from pyres, catacombs and what-not, and their tech explode early on. They can take vast chunks of the worldmap very early with their new mausoleums, and they can turn this land into Infused Ash (extra tech) and pop (extra everything). The most OP feature is that they get both powerful military units (Binders/Chosen) and huge economical upgrades from the same tech-line. There really is no reason to beeline anything other than arcane lore, while this make them one-dimentional it is also very unfair to the rest of the world that has to chose between economy/intfrastructure techs, magic techs, religion techs and military techs. They get it all from one line of tech and that makes them very powerful, very fast. In MP we have reached a point where none of us plays as the Legion, because it feels like cheating. Maybe spread their tile-yield upgrades to other parts of the tech-tree.

Other balance issues: FotL is useless to all races except the elves and Lanun, ancient forests removing one from a tile and blocking all improvements other than than a camp is not a good trade-off for 2. Not that I think that FotL being favorable for elves necessarily is a very bad thing, FotL was OP all races before, but maybe other civs should be allowed build lumbermills in ancient forests, so that ancient forest can compete with normal forests.

Other than that I really like the new patch, and look forward to the next one. Awesome mod you have created here guys.
 
The Mazatl wyvern issues could be a result of no AI level/building requirements. Technically the only requirement to building wyverns is the Order of the Wyvern. If No AI Building Requirement is enabled, they don't need to build the wyvern guardians, the temples, or found the Order of the Wyvern in order to produce wyverns - and on top of that, all their cities can build wyverns, instead of only the one with the Order.

The "simple" fix would be to require Priesthood to build Wyverns, but that still brings them in very early if No AI Building is enabled. However, I don't know what other requirements would be fitting. Maybe Lost Lands civic? That will still delay the AI from building them very early, but should not be a huge hump for a human player (or AI) because they are going to want to go with Lost Lands anyway.
 
Well spotted, I did indeed play with the no building order req on. I presumed the Wyverns'd spawn with the spell, rather than be buildable.
 
I considered writing in some detail about how I think the wildlife is making the game less fun by hampering (read: ruining) AI expansion, but decided to make my case with this instead:

2x3bJ.jpg
 
He does have a point. AI is Rife's biggest weakness, I know that snarko was at some point of time supposed to teach them how to tech properly, (not sure if he ever got done) but even so I think it would go a long way to improving the AI if you'd delay the barbarian takeover somewhat. You don't even have to nerf them, just making the majority of the dungeons etc. spawn between turn 50 and turn 100 rather then between 0 and 10 might help a lot.
 
Hi, I posted this in another thread, but I think it is more appropriate here.

I know that RifE is not meant to be perfectly balanced for multi player, in fact, one of the reasons I came to prefer it over Orbis is that everything is a bit more extreme (!!! ) than in RifE. However, there are a couple of civs that I feel could use a slight nerf for multi player purposes. Also, I know that much of this may have been mentioned in other posts, but this is primarly from MP games, so I thought you might wanna know.

1) Mazatl: in mid- to endgame they sky-rocket because of Lost Lands combined with 5 jungle tiles. new cities begin with +20 and +20 because of trade routes, and as opposed to Raitlor (Illian leader) or Malakim who have similar mechanics, they got a bunch of trade-improving buildings. Yes, I know they must give up foreign trade, but I had nonetheless cities with 40+ pop at around turn 200 even with the new unhealth mechanics. Maybe it could be scaled down a bit, I mean, they already get ridiculous amounts of from the jungles, maybe just give them a bonus from trade and no additional . Oh, and the wyverns are a bit imba, maybe not give them 9 of them.

Before I move on to the next OP civ I would like to say that I like that workers improve the land so slow in this version. It might be a little bit too slow (speed it up 25% perhaps), but all in all it's a great improvement to the game.

2) Mekara Order: With workers taking 20+ turns to improve the terrain, mekara's early horde of familiars and a little later horde of Sluga gives them a lot, I mean a lot, of momentum in the early game. A momentum I have abused every time to expand like a madman early on, which their economy can handle because they got free militia units. Unless you get attacked by Mazatl (which I did once and lost, damn you Mazatl wyverns and damn you Mekara's Lack Of Rangers), you pretty much own the game. However, I feel that if the normal worker speed is increased then Mekara will lose some of it's edge and actually become balanced Awesome civ design btw.

I will of course mention the new unhealth system. I think everything has been said: it often it does not even pay off to let your cities grow, the AI handle the system like a scared goose in a violin shop (weird analogy) and unless you're expansive your early growth is non-existent. Hopefully this will be changed a bit, like upping the inherent health-bonus in new cities or perhaps let cities bellow 12 pop only give one per pop. I dunno. I'm confident you'll think of something. Which brings me to the most OP civ in MP RifE...

3) Legion of D'Tesh: They were underpowered in the last patch, yes, and the changes to them are fitting and fun, however, they are the only civ unaffected by the new unhealth system (except Infernal and Frozen), so now they grow just as fast as everyone else in the early game (faster with a bit of luck and some watchers/hunters). They get a ridiculous tile-yield from pyres, catacombs and what-not, and their tech explode early on. They can take vast chunks of the worldmap very early with their new mausoleums, and they can turn this land into Infused Ash (extra tech) and pop (extra everything). The most OP feature is that they get both powerful military units (Binders/Chosen) and huge economical upgrades from the same tech-line. There really is no reason to beeline anything other than arcane lore, while this make them one-dimentional it is also very unfair to the rest of the world that has to chose between economy/intfrastructure techs, magic techs, religion techs and military techs. They get it all from one line of tech and that makes them very powerful, very fast. In MP we have reached a point where none of us plays as the Legion, because it feels like cheating. Maybe spread their tile-yield upgrades to other parts of the tech-tree.

Other balance issues: FotL is useless to all races except the elves and Lanun, ancient forests removing one from a tile and blocking all improvements other than than a camp is not a good trade-off for 2. Not that I think that FotL being favorable for elves necessarily is a very bad thing, FotL was OP all races before, but maybe other civs should be allowed build lumbermills in ancient forests, so that ancient forest can compete with normal forests.

Other than that I really like the new patch, and look forward to the next one. Awesome mod you have created here guys.

1.Noticed that too, also swamps should be pilligable(the irrigatable ones, created by the lizardmen civs).

2.Not really, with worker promos other civs are just as good at this, and since mekara do not get promos from experience this really is not an issue. Increased?:eek: Yeah, not a good idea they have enough work with promos and tools as is.

3.You forgot the Scions.:D Yeah, but they are shafted in the areas of recon, melee, and ranged units. They're mage units are good for a reason and can still be pounded by a well-balanced force. Not as op as alfar, lizardmen, or even alot of base civ improvements. Windmills, lumbermills, and watermills are giving apparently op:rolleyes: yields if you use them also. They are also much more vulnerable to barbs and animals early game which can limit their development early on with only defensive units(i.e. watchers, sentinels who only have 1 or 2:strength:. Mechanos also get benefits from certain resources and tend to develop around the archery line the most. I guess they're op.:mischief:

You can build lumbermills in ancient forests actually, and your units get a bonus in forests with FoL, and a treant defender to take care of barbs that tresspass. How is that underpowered? Satyrs(available early on) can use charm to stop all units from attacking and ancient forests give 1 additional :food: and :hammers:. I hope I don'ts gets a scary ancient forest, I might get additional yields.:lol:
 
1.Noticed that too, also swamps should be pilligable(the irrigatable ones, created by the lizardmen civs).

2.Not really, with worker promos other civs are just as good at this, and since mekara do not get promos from experience this really is not an issue. Increased?:eek: Yeah, not a good idea they have enough work with promos and tools as is.

3.You forgot the Scions.:D Yeah, but they are shafted in the areas of recon, melee, and ranged units. They're mage units are good for a reason and can still be pounded by a well-balanced force. Not as op as alfar, lizardmen, or even alot of base civ improvements. Windmills, lumbermills, and watermills are giving apparently op:rolleyes: yields if you use them also. They are also much more vulnerable to barbs and animals early game which can limit their development early on with only defensive units(i.e. watchers, sentinels who only have 1 or 2:strength:. Mechanos also get benefits from certain resources and tend to develop around the archery line the most. I guess they're op.:mischief:

You can build lumbermills in ancient forests actually, and your units get a bonus in forests with FoL, and a treant defender to take care of barbs that tresspass. How is that underpowered? Satyrs(available early on) can use charm to stop all units from attacking and ancient forests give 1 additional :food: and :hammers:. I hope I don'ts gets a scary ancient forest, I might get additional yields.:lol:

Except that as of 1.30 AFs no longer increase food but rather reduce it.
 
One of the goals was to slow down growth in the early game.

i get the idea, but i think one game is long enough anyway especially on lan sessions when people have to go home some time. we play only on tiny maps to speed up the whole thing. i think early game was perfectly as it was. when it is slowed down the imbalance of the civs will of much bigger effect ...
 
Have you tried the Starting Something module? It helps speed up the early game significantly.
 
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