Balanced Budget Amendment

Do you support a U.S. federal balanced budget amendment?


  • Total voters
    50
So are you for raising taxes on the wealthy if it means balancing the budget or do you want only the poor and middle-class to suffer the pain?

Personally I'd like to see the rich pay 50% taxes- no exceptions.

That's a lot of Americans homeless and starving....

It's not the governments job to feed people. Charities are far more efficient than the government could ever hope to be.

There isn't enough spending that can be cut to balance the budget without crippling the economy or drastically harming the majority of the people in the country.

better now, rather than later (when we are in Greece's situation).
 
I always find it entertaining when some new poster barges in with dozens of posts full of crazy ideas & gets destroyed EN MASSE. It's highly entertaining.

Anyway, a Balanced Budget Amendment is one of the stupidest ideas ever proposed. What do you think would happen, right now, if, say, Israel nuked Iran & it turned our Iran had actually developed nukes 6 months ago, along with ICBM's, & they nuked New York?

It's silly, sure, but what if? How do you think we'd actually pay for the retaliation? The mobilizaton of troops. The ground war. The clean up. Dear God, the clean up. It'd make Katrina looks like a rain delay at a baseball game.

Given our massize current deficits, how could we possibly pay for all that if we had to balance the budget at the same time? You'd basically have to immediatly cut off all Social Security payments, end Medicare completely, end Farm & Oil subsidies, AND raise taxes to like 70% on everyone.

And that's just a worst case scenario. Imagine if we'd had a Balanced Budget Amendment 10 years ago. Forget the Bush Tax Cuts. We's have had the Bush Tax Raises. We wouldn't have Medicare Part D (maybe not a bad thing) and taxes would have automatically sky-rocketed during The Recession under Obama, instead of decreasing like they have, to fund all the Unemployment benefits & increased Food Stamp users.

Worst. Idea. Ever.

look it up on wikipedia. There are exceptions for emergencies. I'd say nuking New York qualifies as an emergency. Same with a massive hurricane like Katrina.

And seriously Iran aren't the bad guys. They are all talk and no action. They aren't nuking anyone.
 
Nope, won't happen. The politicians won't cooperate because the electorate is divided. Right now, what you have is a situation where all sides of the spectrum have been able to get what they want. You've got a decent (still overly low) level of social spending and high level of military spending, coupled with a non-economically-interventionist government and rock bottom tax rates. The liberals are insistent on the social spending, while the conservatives are enamoured with the military spending, small government talk, and then you've got a plutocratic class that have a government taxing them and meddling in corporate affairs.

Until you decide on a course of action out of this position, the deficit will remain. It will decrease when the economy gets going again, but the deficit is structural. Either you drastically cut social spending, or raise taxes. An amendment won't help anyone decide; they will merely entrench their position, and insist the 'other side' has to give in.
This is really my view on this in the specific situation of the current American political climate. I doubt even most Republican voters would be against the drastic social cuts that would be necessary in this situation, once they realize what social spending actually does for people - including themselves. On the other hand, I doubt the GOP is ideologically capable of agreeing to the amount of tax increases that would be necessary. We'd end up in a situation comparable to the debt ceiling problem of last summer, only without a debt ceiling to raise.

More generally, I do think that more should be done to avoid that the national debt spirals out of control. This has nothing to do with "living within one's means" or similar approaches based on false equivalences to private budgets. Look at the pie chart Cutlass posted:
Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg
Almost 5% of the federal budget are spent on interest, and if the amount of debt rises in relation to GDP, so does this portion of the budget that is immediately lost (assuming stable interest rates). So additional debt limits the capabilities of the state to actually do something, which is something especially liberals do not want.

But a strict balanced budget law would just limit the government too much. Governments should be able to react to recessions and economic crises. Governments should be able to spread out a surplus over several years without having to accumulate and sit on it for an extended period of time, which is just economically stupid. It's hard (i.e. impossible) to cover every possible kind of crisis the government would need to respond to as exceptions to such a law, so you could end up in situations where you would need to break laws or even the constitution to avoid problems, or let the economy collapse just out of principle [the Eurozone faces a similar dilemma right now].

I'm in principle in favor of making Keynesian policies actually Keynesian, i.e. increased spending during recessions would have to be accompanied by corresponding cuts when the economy grows again, which most of the time doesn't really happen because politicians like to use these times to pay for their favorite programs again. But again, this is hard to turn into law, because the circumstances are too varied to account for everything again, and you'd end up in situations where the law forces you to do stupid things.

So yes, there is a problem, but I don't really think legal limits can solve it.

I can't think of many good reasons for it and can think of a ton of problems with it. But there must be something redeeming if a Keynesian dislikes it.
So the only reasons to run a deficit are supply side economics? Like tax cuts? :crazyeye:

Yet.
It is not for lack of trying, though.
If you really think that the US are anywhere close to Greece's problems in the foreseeable future, you really don't know what you are talking about and need to get some perspective.

Someone has to serve as an example of misguided thinking.
Good that new people barge into this forum in regular intervals to provide this sort of service.

Either way, live within your income.
And this is the fundamental problem budget hawks have. They treat national budgets like private budgets, as if macroeconomics was the same as microeconomics.

It's not the governments job to feed people. Charities are far more efficient than the government could ever hope to be.
If only it were so. Why do you think the government had to step in to prevent severe suffering in the first place? Because liberals love to waste money, I suppose.
 
It's not the governments job to feed people. Charities are far more efficient than the government could ever hope to be.

Yeah thats totally true, I mean look at Europe, oh wait. Private charity wasn't enough or there wouldn't be a thing called the welfare state.
 
Personally I'd like to see the rich pay 50% taxes- no exceptions.


That would help.


It's not the governments job to feed people. Charities are far more efficient than the government could ever hope to be.


This is pure bullcrap. Charities suck at feeding the hungry. Cities and states suck at feeding the hungry. In all of US history, the US federal government is the only organization that has ever done really well at it. It is the government's job, because charities are abject failures at it. It is the government's job, because protecting the population and promoting the general welfare is the government's job.

The government would not be in the charity business at all except for the utter failure of charities to meet the need.



better now, rather than later (when we are in Greece's situation).



Our situation is nothing like Greece's. We have a short term problem, the weak economy, and a long term problem, the tax cuts. Spending is not the cause of our problems. Why is it the only solution people will even consider?
 
No. Balanced budget at the governmental level is an absolutely terrible idea. See: basically every US state.
 
Actually, if you turned over all administrative duties to a computer that was not being paid, it actually wouldn't balance the books. Would come very close, but not quite all the way there.

Why bother? Cancel all such duties.
 
No. Balanced budget at the governmental level is an absolutely terrible idea. See: basically every US state.

For the reals. It becomes a principle that obscures the purpose of government. See: massive cuts to spending (incl. health providers, education, etc) in Texas while we sit on billions in a "Rainy Day Fund."
 
It's not the governments job to feed people. Charities are far more efficient than the government could ever hope to be.

Why not abolish the courts, prisons and the police ? Why is it the governmetns job to make sure it's citizens behave ? It would be far more efficient if people just didn't commit crimes.
 
It's not the governments job to feed people. Charities are far more efficient than the government could ever hope to be.
Whether or not charities are more efficient then the government isn't the issue. The issue is whether charities have the necesary scope and coordination to provide methods to alleviate poverty and to help people move out of it. Currently charities don't have that level of coordination or scope and to my knowledge they have never had that. While charities are certiantly useful and play a valuable role in targeted aid or assisting with general cost of living expenses (although there are still several problems) they still cannot match the government on scope and coordination.
 
Personally I'd like to see the rich pay 50% taxes- no exceptions.

I don't think that's a good idea. You still want to be able to offer tax incentives to people for pursuing various courses of action. Fixing tax rates is just as dumb as outlawing deficits, in that you've denied yourself room to manoeuvre.

Why bother? Cancel all such duties.

Well because I want those social services to continue.

But if you cut the whole government, then you presumably have cut the IRS. Without tax revenue coming in, you can't pay the existing interest. Financial Crisis! :eek:
 
Denigrating people on food-stamps is stupid for Republicans because many of the "values voters" are in the SNAP program. If the food-stamp program was suddenly canceled like what Ryan wants to do in his budget, the local charities would be overwhelmed.
 
If it weren't for the suffering, I would almost be for Romney and Ryan winning and being able to enact what they propose. All of a sudden, many people would feel the pain of voting against their own interests.
 
Debt is by far the greatest threat faced by not only the US but all the world.

I think its too late to hope anything can be done about it. We just have to accept the consequences. My wife and I have set aside bottles of pills to take when the time comes, enough for us and our kids.
 
Debt is by far the greatest threat faced by not only the US but all the world.

I think its too late to hope anything can be done about it. We just have to accept the consequences. My wife and I have set aside bottles of pills to take when the time comes, enough for us and our kids.

This is indeed scary:crazyeye:
 
Debt is by far the greatest threat faced by not only the US but all the world.

I think its too late to hope anything can be done about it. We just have to accept the consequences. My wife and I have set aside bottles of pills to take when the time comes, enough for us and our kids.
I think people who keep suicide pills (I guess that is the implication?) for their kids are a way greater threat. I don't know if you were serious, because I never know with you, but this is something which you shouldn't even joke about. You're entering horrible company here.
 
I think people who keep suicide pills (I guess that is the implication?) for their kids are a way greater threat. I don't know if you were serious, because I never know with you, but this is something which you shouldn't even joke about. You're entering horrible company here.

We just have a different perspective. I believe that widespread sovereign debt default events have become inevitable, will result in riot, rebellion, terror, war, hunger and starvation, and wholesale exchange of nuclear arsenals.

In other words I expect history to repeat just as it always has, only this time we will have a far greater capacity to destroy ourselves.

Having a bottle of pills around to spare ourselves the worst of possible outcomes is simply common sense. My kids are, btw, older than most of the posters here and I consider it my responsibility to offer them some merciful kindness if and when it becomes needed.

Morphine has a place on the battlefield.

I've lived long enough to know how things work. One day we will be discussing the debt in measured terms as a problem that might be solved, the next all control will be lost and we will be careening wildly into oblivion. And even then most won't be aware of the danger.
 
Do you people still not understand that the recent wave of unrest and governmental overthrow was a economic event?
 
We just have a different perspective. I believe that widespread sovereign debt default events have become inevitable, will result in riot, rebellion, terror, war, hunger and starvation, and wholesale exchange of nuclear arsenals.

In other words I expect history to repeat just as it always has, only this time we will have a far greater capacity to destroy ourselves.

Having a bottle of pills around to spare ourselves the worst of possible outcomes is simply common sense. My kids are, btw, older than most of the posters here and I consider it my responsibility to offer them some merciful kindness if and when it becomes needed.

Morphine has a place on the battlefield.

I've lived long enough to know how things work. One day we will be discussing the debt in measured terms as a problem that might be solved, the next all control will be lost and we will be careening wildly into oblivion. And even then most won't be aware of the danger.



All those years you voted conservative. Now you finally see the price of that.
 
Back
Top Bottom