Barracks and Heroic Epic

[Tomice]

How often do you actually build the heroic epic? I just can't imagine why I should build barracks in every city, but I'm rarely building tall empires.

Also, the moment you build the heroic epic, your previous investition/achievement (being able to build well-trained units everywhere) is made pointless by the fact that you'll want to build all your future units in the HE-city again.

 

[mystikx21]

You probably shouldn't build a barracks in every city, but they're cheap enough that you can get them built/bought to get the Hero Epic up before you have too many cities (and then just sell off the barracks that you don't need once it's done).

The NWs I would rarely get are the Hermitage or NIA. I'm not building 2 tiers of mostly useless espionage buildings everywhere and the Hermitage has a tier 3 culture requirement that takes a lot of investment to get to as well.

 

[Ahriman]

I find the Heroic Epic to be incredibly powerful, because the morale bonus is very large. It is particularly problematic for siege units that have a high base strength and a -50% penalty vs units, because the modifier is applied to the base, so ends up counting double.

So I wouldn't want it to be any easier to build. I think it's good that it's a bit difficult to build for a non-Tall empire.

 

[Hawawaa]

I always build it (I love that moral bonus) but when I forget that I have an extra city and delay it I get pissed at myself.

Oh I remember the 75% requirement for barracks in all cities in earlier versions, I assume that will be coming back? (same with other national wonders)?

 

[rhammer640]

I would also like the 75% or something similar to come back for GEM for national wonders for sure. Also while I'm thinking of it, the new tech that the barracks says its required for engineering i think (cant remember off the top of my head) but its not...figured its already been reported but I was thinking about it.

 

[Tomice]

I'm quite surprised by the result! May you share your strategy around it? When do you build it (tech level, number of cities)?

Do you use it to prepare for conquest? Doesn't it cause quite some delay?
Or is more for defending tall empires? Shouldn't you have built most of your defensive army before?

 

[Hawawaa]

Even if conquest isn't what I'll end up doing I still like to have it. Those elite units can hold off the ai. I usually build 3-5 cities (mostly 3), only exception to that is if I capture a enemy city/capital (mostly capitals) that has lots of good buildings and wonders and I can put it to use. Also the earlier the better but sometimes certain techs have priority ie some wonders that will help me out in my starting location.

I play Civ like most 4x's you don't need to build a big army for awhile (note only enough units to hold off barbs). Its rare I build a big army to crush a neighbor right off the bat. Tech up and build up cities and then go crush heads.

 

[Kakafika]

I used to never build it but in the last month I've been randoming Civs to get out of my comfort-zone of Tall culture/science victory, and I've found it's very powerful.

I agree that it's very good if you can get all the barracks and then just sell them off, but you make a very good point about how it's weird that you make all your cities create veteran units, then you build it, then you build all your units in one city. I'd say it should be changed to a different effect but since it's so early (the EARLIEST national wonder, actually), maybe not.

I also agree that NIA is terrible/not worth the effort. It needs a buff or possibly be changed to a building that only requires constables. Hermitage, on the other hand, I build almost every game... That's probably more of a personal preference thing, though. For some reason, I simply love getting social policies, so end up building a lot of culture buildings even when I "shouldn't"... Hermitage is also pretty powerful. As a side note, I have never used religion to buff it, in favor of other bonuses.

I also want to put my vote in for the 75% requirement for NWs. It's so annoying to sleep a settler on a tile until you get the wonder, whereas before I could prepare by buying/building the required building in another city.

BUG:
And rhammer is correct, "Training" has no dependencies, despite the display in the tech tree. I think I just skipped it completely in my Gandhi cultural victory =P

 

[rtw1323]

I would also like the 75% or something similar to come back for GEM for national wonders for sure. Also while I'm thinking of it, the new tech that the barracks says its required for engineering i think (cant remember off the top of my head) but its not...figured its already been reported but I was thinking about it.

I agree with this. I despise the "build X building in ALL cities" mechanic.

 

[Tomice]

I don't remember - was there a reason to remove the 75%-rule or is it just not yet implemented in GEM?

 

[mystikx21]

GK and patches changed something in the code that made the previous 75% requirement no longer work correctly (it would allow it as soon as you had 1 rather than 75%).

I suspect it got put on the back burner relative to getting the rest working and switched on. But it is on the list.

 

[AnthonyG]

I never play a game without it.

(I voted 'rather often', but I guess I could have voted 'other' as I always build it, always).

 

[Canabrava]

I build it every game.

 

[Kurobane]

Would it be possible to make the Heroic Epic effects global in all cities? It is counter productive to make Barracks in every city, yet only makes units from one city once you get the heroic. I imagine this would help out Military AI's as well.

 

[Thalassicus]

I want games to be fun. When we get a National College, we don't have to rebuild Libraries in every city... that would be bizzare! I think rebuilding our whole army after getting the Heroic Epic is equally strange. My brother just suicides his old units. I don't think that's fun.

What if the Heroic Epic retroactively applies Morale to all units when constructed?


=====
The main problem with vanilla national wonders overall is how it cancels construction whenever we gain a city. It's just frustrating, not very fun. I do plan to fix this again when I have time. Firaxis made a lot of changes to the production panel in G&K, so I estimate it would take about 10 hours to adapt the old VEM code for GEM.

 

[Tomice]

Well, the current version gives 15% to new units AFAIK. Since very often we'll already have built large parts of our armies before, we'd have to lower it. 5% would be more or less nothing, 10% for all units might be a bit much.

I'll refrain from posting concrete suggestions to improve a mechanic I misunderstood until now. Most people seem to like it as it is. IMO, there is some improvement potential, but this might be a minority opinion. Also, I find it more weird to sell all the barracks afterwards than to replace old units.

 

[Thalassicus]

I'm solving the barracks problem in an upcoming overhaul of policies.

 

[Tomice]

Has this something to do with the free barracks from Honor we discussed?

 

[mystikx21]

Tomice, pretty sure it's 20% not 15% right now.

 

[Drakir89]

What if the Heroic Epic retroactively applies Morale to all units when constructed?

YES PLEASE!

Another option would be to have it give morale to any unit visiting the city. Would perhaps be easier to code with free units from city states/honor policy/events?

Also 20% is too much for its current place in the tech tree with such a change.