I don't think such a small bonus has much to do with the Infernals being stronger than the Mercurians, it's probably due to them having more room to expand as I usually see them appear before the Mercurians and they start with about three settlers, the free buildings also help them, with the obsidian gates allowing defenders to move to where ever the attacks occur, and they are also much more willing to attack, with Hyborem having two lives and Basium only having one life.
basium sucks!
- Thread starter ash874
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I don't think such a small bonus has much to do with the Infernals being stronger than the Mercurians, it's probably due to them having more room to expand as I usually see them appear before the Mercurians and they start with about three settlers, the free buildings also help them, with the obsidian gates allowing defenders to move to where ever the attacks occur, and they are also much more willing to attack, with Hyborem having two lives and Basium only having one life.
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
Well, the Infernal have to enter before the Mecurians. One of the Prerequisits for the gate is that the Infernals are in the game, whether you know it or not. (Or was that changed for some reason?)
xienwolf
Deity
That was changed.
It's part of it. They have an advantage on their native terrain, which spreads with them. How often have you fought them on non-Hell terrain?
Mostly, it's because they spawn in the middle of nowhere, with lots of room to expand, whereas Basi and Co usually spawn in the middle of someone's empire.
Darksaber1
Secret Emperor
So, in what virsion was it Changed? I presume it was changed because the Mecurians were entering to late?
Nikis-Knight
Deity
It was changed patly so that players could always play as Mercs if they wanted, w/o having to rely on Ai's actions.
I'm all for removing maintenance costs for Angelic and Demonic units, period. The backstory tells us that they are not on Erebus for the cash....they are here to win.
Human/living units should still cose maintenance, but any unit with the Angelic or Demonic promotions (for any civ) should be free of maintenance, imho.
Human/living units should still cose maintenance, but any unit with the Angelic or Demonic promotions (for any civ) should be free of maintenance, imho.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
That is a good point. Since they already can't be built, your suggestion wouldn't cause unbalance and may make many people want to play those 2 civs more often. So, less, there's a reason like the FfH team tried to do that already and it kept causin CTDs, I say it's a good idea.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I'd suspect that some demons (those serving Mammon or Esus in life) may very well be here for cash....
Yeah, making Angels maintenance free makes but making you still pay a price for Demons would be good.
Yeah, making Angels maintenance free makes but making you still pay a price for Demons would be good.
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Sorry, I just am not seeing what your wrote in the last sentence. I wrote in the bugs thread that in just about every game I play the Infernals are victims of very poor placement of their civ when they are summoned. In my last game despite plenty of the map still wide open they were squeezed into a very small area between my civ and another (and a large lake) and far away from the civ that summoned them.
They never had a chance and were wiped out in short order. I have seen this going back several versions, by the way. You just don't seem to have any control (like you do with Basium when you choose the city to build the Gate in) on where Hyborem plops down and most of the time in my experience his starting position is terrible.
I never build Basium, and when the AI does, it places him in a city in the middle of their empire, surrounded on all sides by populated land. I've had a few games where the Infernals just set around in Dis, but I've also had a few where they take over a continent and become a huge threat to the world, but I've never seen Basium do anything.
sylvanllewelyn
Perma-newb
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MalkutX: I agree that Basium never does anything under AI hands, but neither does Hyboream. You really saw it take over a whole continent? Can I have a screenshot or save? And are they really that scary when they do?
KillerClowns
Emperor
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- Oct 6, 2007
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Once. I don't have a screenshot, but I was once playing a Terra game and Hyborem beat us all to the New World... it was not pretty.
Twice, but I don't have saves, unfortunately.
The first time I was Faeryl on a Continents map. I shared a continent with Keelyn, who founded Ashen Veil. She had to die, and so did her cities. I then sailed to the other continent looking for more prey, and found the entire place covered in Hell terrain. It was awful. Demons were everywhere. The Bannor, the Malakim, and the Ljosalfar and Basium were all trying to fight him, and they were all losing. His empire was so large that I just started a new game, rather than attempt an intercontinental invasion against a foe that large and advanced.
The second time was as the Sheaim. I was on the same continent this time, but trapped behind an impassible mountain range. After I summoned him, Buboes ate Alexis' entire empire. That gave him a huge area to expand in, and lots of pop to do it with. By the end of the game, the entire world was covered in Hell terrain, and Hyborem was in second place (after me).
In both cases, it was simply a matter of feeding him as many manes as possible, hence my planar gate idea that would give him manes (and Basium angels) at random.
Pyr0mancer
Prince
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- 542
The other thing is, Hyborem doesn't depend on terrain to make his cities effective. All he has to do is run one of the infinite-specialists civics and keep settling manes.
Basium, however, has to depend on puny hairless apes to work for him, and usually by the time he appears there's no space to settle and his Angels are too weak to go forth and conquer.
The ONLY time I've seen an AI Basium be even remotely effective is when I gifted him Rage and Guilds, then spammed Vicars with Theocracy, Apprenticeship, Conquest, Dies Dei, a CP, Form of the Titan, AND a level 5 Altar of the Luonnatar. And I still managed to conquer more cities with just my suicide squads than he did with his angels.
Basium, however, has to depend on puny hairless apes to work for him, and usually by the time he appears there's no space to settle and his Angels are too weak to go forth and conquer.
The ONLY time I've seen an AI Basium be even remotely effective is when I gifted him Rage and Guilds, then spammed Vicars with Theocracy, Apprenticeship, Conquest, Dies Dei, a CP, Form of the Titan, AND a level 5 Altar of the Luonnatar. And I still managed to conquer more cities with just my suicide squads than he did with his angels.
I guess it does depend on the type and size of map you use for your games. I always use Large land maps - no continents.
But, I still cannot for the life of me understand why the AI places Hyborem far away from the civ that summoned him and more often than not squeezes him and his party into a very bad location between two or more civs that are his natural enemies.
He would be much more of a thread and make the game so much more interesting if he was placed in open territory with a chance to expand. Particularly, if he comes in the later game when the other civs can quickly take him out with advanced units.
When I decide to build the Mercurian Gate in one of my cities I am going to lose, I honestly don't pick one of my best cities (resources, Wonders, etc.) for Basium, so he does get somewhat of a starting handicap. But, then, as I said his AI is terrible when it comes to being your ally. Also, he will sometimes go out and conquer cities out in No Man's Land, or send Settler's to settle there. This really fractures the cohesion of the 'alliance' as his small cities squeezed into spots where they cannot grow are scattered all over the map. I realize you do have a bit of control here, but even with micromanaging, it his hard to counteract his bad AI as your ally.
But, I still cannot for the life of me understand why the AI places Hyborem far away from the civ that summoned him and more often than not squeezes him and his party into a very bad location between two or more civs that are his natural enemies.
He would be much more of a thread and make the game so much more interesting if he was placed in open territory with a chance to expand. Particularly, if he comes in the later game when the other civs can quickly take him out with advanced units.
When I decide to build the Mercurian Gate in one of my cities I am going to lose, I honestly don't pick one of my best cities (resources, Wonders, etc.) for Basium, so he does get somewhat of a starting handicap. But, then, as I said his AI is terrible when it comes to being your ally. Also, he will sometimes go out and conquer cities out in No Man's Land, or send Settler's to settle there. This really fractures the cohesion of the 'alliance' as his small cities squeezed into spots where they cannot grow are scattered all over the map. I realize you do have a bit of control here, but even with micromanaging, it his hard to counteract his bad AI as your ally.
Annex
Tyranny and Mutation
I would agree that Basium usually gets stuck in a bad position more often than not. Once a neighboring empire created the mercurian gate in a border city which was being assaulted by my culture. Once the Mercurians took over, they had no chance. The city revolted to me, leaving Basium with only a tiny city he created with the free sttler.
You know, one thing that's always bothered me about Basium is that anyone can summon him for any reason. He can even be a tool of evil. I had one game where Faeryl founded the Ashen Veil AND summoned Basium in one of her border cities.
Thus, every good city she destroyed made her vassal stronger, and her vassal was blocking the entrance to her largest cities, including the Ashen Veil holy city . . . .
Thus, every good city she destroyed made her vassal stronger, and her vassal was blocking the entrance to her largest cities, including the Ashen Veil holy city . . . .
I agree; I'd kind of like the Mercurian Gate to be restricted to being built only by Good civs, maybe even only Order civs (much as only Veil civs can summon Hyborem).
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