[BAT Mod 4.1] Help me earn the title Imperator (Emperor)!

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I did play ahead to Turn 11, when I finished researching Agriculture. The first imperial competition showed its face to the west on Turn 10, and I suspect that the land to the north doesn't extend much further, which means I may be trapped on a far southern peninsula with Justinian.

If the Scout confirms that the only way left to explore is to the west, I guess that's where I'll send all the warriors I train. Should I leave the Scout in the north to fogbust or continue using him to, well, scout?

I guess I'll follow lymond's advice this time and continue on to Bronze Working and ignore the Cow for now?
 

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I would actually recommend going AH. Plains cow is quite a good tile with IMP as it's effectively three food FIVE hammers when building a settler (if you can get a hammer from anywhere else, which you have from the city center tile). Also, it doesn't hurt to check for horsies.

I'd delay BW here. Unorthodox, I know, but consider this - the area isn't exactly rich in food, so you're only going to be whipping in your capital for the first 50 turns at least. And with only 4 forests, you don't have a lot of chops either. Finally, this start is quite commerce-poor, so you're gonna want some form of :commerce: early on such that you don't fall into an early-game "commerce hole", where you limp your way to BW and then stall at TW/pottery because you have 4 cities (after all, you're imp), are paying a fortune for them, and your workers are unable to build roads or cottages to fix the situation.
 
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Def. agree with Fishman, i would not think about BW early here.
My main priority would be AH, wheel and mining for cows and the pigs + gold spot :)

On Emp, barbs should be nps with this a bit further away spot.
Gold easily makes up for those costs, and supported by pigs is very nice imo.
 
Played a few more turns, Scout confirmed my suspicion that north is a dead-end with an Ocean Fish marking a city spot for later.

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Should I leave the Scout where he is right now to keep the north 100% barbarian free or should he continue his exploration?

Edit: Oh yeah and the Worker is finished and about to commence farming the Corn.
 
Let's go with AH then. I did not see the Pigs and Gold before. Maybe there are horses near. Actually I thought barbs would be more of a problem here, although the N area above cap looks easy to spawnbust early, as well as the area below the gold.

I think though that IK will run into some sleepy workers for a while. Maybe not..not sure...a farm can be planted near cow while waiting for AH. And I agree that the corn plus cow will make for fast settlers...

Whatcha think, My? Settle wheat/fish first or gold pigs? wheat/fish will be instantly connected, but the early gold will be nice though a good distance away relatively.

edit: IK..yep, that is the exact perfect spot for a spawnbust in the area. A new warrior can head toward the gold. 2S of that peak (2W of wheat) is a good bust spot ..at least until wheat/fish is settled. (although you might want to protect the pigs/gold first initially before settling)
 
Scout posi looks perfect for fogbusting, would keep him there :)

Most likely i would rush the pigs & gold before any other city (if barb free), so it can be improved faster.
Also we already met Justi, unlucky city steal could happen i guess.

One final note on AH, was also cheaper than normal here with having both Agri & hunting.
 
Scout is fine there. I'd go with AH, then mining (to get gold up), then fishing -> TW -> pot, and only then BW. I would settle my second city on the desert hill to claim pigs + gold, my third on the tundra forest to claim wheat + fish, and my fourth NW of cap to claim the fish and horse.
 
Horse? I see no horsies...:)

edit: Not sure if Fish is a priority here. TW > Mining may be best next. Then decide if fish or BW next. Chopping maybe nice to have soon.
 
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Horse? I see no horsies...:)

My bad, I forgot that he didn't even have AH yet. Oops.

Well, in any case, not that big of a spoiler. But yes, the NW fish does have horse. It'll be apparent once AH is in.
 
@Imp. Knoedel
I would absolutely value having the north 100% barb free, I support that plan wholeheartedly! You have enough information about the map to make the choices you need to make before more will be revealed.

Looking forward to seeing an update @AH, and I would like to hear more about how you would reason about further tech-choices after that.
 
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No idle worker here, Animal Husbandry finished even a turn earlier than it would have been needed.

I definitely think the Gold+Pig spot should be settled first lest it falls to the Unholy Unroman Unemperor of the Greeks.

As for techs, I think I'll go TW->Fishing->Mining.

TW to work on a road to the Pig+Gold spot, Fishing to unlock the lake for a bit of early commerce, and Mining for the Gold and to put a mine on that grass hill by Aachen.

Mining can go third because the Worker will have plenty to do for now with Roads and the Pig Pasture.

Aachen grows to size 2 next turn, which tile should it work in addition to the corn until the Cow Pasture is completed? I'd try to get at least a second warrior in and time growth and production so that Aachen grows to size 3 the same turn it completes the second warrior and then it can train a Settler right away, working the Corn, Cow, and the forested plains hill.
 

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No idle worker here, Animal Husbandry finished even a turn earlier than it would have been needed.

I definitely think the Gold+Pig spot should be settled first lest it falls to the Unholy Unroman Unemperor of the Greeks.

As for techs, I think I'll go TW->Fishing->Mining.

TW to work on a road to the Pig+Gold spot, Fishing to unlock the lake for a bit of early commerce, and Mining for the Gold and to put a mine on that grass hill by Aachen.

Mining can go third because the Worker will have plenty to do for now with Roads and the Pig Pasture.

Aachen grows to size 2 next turn, which tile should it work in addition to the corn until the Cow Pasture is completed? I'd try to get at least a second warrior in and time growth and production so that Aachen grows to size 3 the same turn it completes the second warrior and then it can train a Settler right away, working the Corn, Cow, and the forested plains hill.

I got a bit distracted and played a little ahead, started having fun with schneky schnekts...Nevertheless, what I have to say next won’t spoil anything and is good advice regardless of what happens on your particular save.

The next tech you should go for is absolutely mining. Roads are of low priority here; your 3rd city by the wheat should autoconnect to the capital, so if you road allllll the way to the gold site you’re spending basically 10 worker turns for 1 extra commerce/turn. That’s a pretty bad deal.

Use the worker instead to build a farm on the lakeside grass before mining the grass hill next to the cap. These are meh improvements but they’ll do two things: speed up growth, and speed up settlers by a fair bit, respectively. And in the early game every bit counts.

After that, start a settler at size 3. Working the corn and cow and mined grass hill and you should get it out in 6 or 7 turns. Send that one to the gold and pigs. Make sure to put the warrior ahead, on a hill or something so no nasty barb surprises. And after mining, tech fishing or TW in either order followed by pottery. Granaries are especially good in a food-poor place like this.
 
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View attachment 529891


I definitely think the Gold+Pig spot should be settled first lest it falls to the Unholy Unroman Unemperor of the Greeks.

Haha..well he was more Roman than Chuck. HRE - neither Holy nor Roman!

View attachment 529891As for techs, I think I'll go TW->Fishing->Mining.


TW to work on a road to the Pig+Gold spot, Fishing to unlock the lake for a bit of early commerce, and Mining for the Gold and to put a mine on that grass hill by Aachen.

Mining can go third because the Worker will have plenty to do for now with Roads and the Pig Pasture.

Aachen grows to size 2 next turn, which tile should it work in addition to the corn until the Cow Pasture is completed? I'd try to get at least a second warrior in and time growth and production so that Aachen grows to size 3 the same turn it completes the second warrior and then it can train a Settler right away, working the Corn, Cow, and the forested plains hill.

A part of me still leans toward Mining>BW first. Even if BW is not finished to help speed up the first settler it can with the second and I think you want those two cities fast. FIsh does not much this soon (except argument for a bit of commerce but you could get that from the gold soon.

Roads are not doing much either this soon....not much to hook up right now for a while except Gold/Pigs city and honestly that is a heck of a lot of worker turns until you have more workers and the improvements completed.

Although mines are not generally a priority, a mined grasshill will help with settler production with IMP.

At size 2 continue to max grow on a 2F1H tile until warrior completes. I think you should get that warrior out first and send him W to start clear the path and preventing barbs. If not size 3 yet you can queue another warrior then start settler. Or start settler at size 2 anyway, but grow once the next improvement complete ...with warrior..then back to settler immediately at size 3. (just not sure of timings on all this)

Yes, at size 3, work the best tiles for the settler which would include the forest plains hill, at least until the grasshill is mined, if that is the way this goes. (forest PH may > than grass farm too..but not like worker has much better to do after cow which is only 5 turns away)

:ninja:by the fishman. We seem to be in sync. Cow will be improved fast, likely before Mining, so farme could be started or completed, but a mine is indeed more valuable in this instance with IMP...at least if nothing better to do. And I think you will have time for a mine.


edit: Another argument that will see what the committee thinks, especially if BW is next and no copper, is to settle fish/horse next (after pigs/gold) so that horses are online quicker. I think that will require a monument though..unless fish/horse is settled closer horse which it could and share cows. Idea is faster access to horses for some protection. ...odd you've only met one AI ..no one seems all that close for a Pangaea map.

ha..I may be shot down on all this
 
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Haha..well he was more Roman than Chuck. HRE - neither Holy nor Roman!
Oh believe me I know, I've literally written my bachelor's thesis on HRE-Byzantine diplomatic relations in the 10th century. :p

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Warrior completed exactly the same turn as Aachen grew to size 3, that was beautiful.

Unfortunately I wasted a turn or two leaving the city on auto-working tiles before I realized the stupid governor preferred a grass forest over the plains hill forest, thus not taking full advantage of the Imperialistic Production bonus. :wallbash:

Also I stopped the worker from working on the farm a turn too late to get him working on the grass mine immediately when Mining finished, so should I finish the farm and grow Aachen to size 4 after the Settler or go build the mine anyway?

I decided to hold on Turn 30 because I finished researching Mining and the Warrior encountered a lion on his journey west. Should I attack now or defend in the forest? What if the Lion doesn't attack on his turn and I have to move the Warrior on an empty tile with no defensive bonus? Do I actually have any free wins against barbs on Emperor?

I'm seeing some dissenting voices with regards to the tech path. I'm honestly leaning towards BW->Fishing->TW->Pottery. In addition to some commerce Fishing also unlocks a Workboat for the Horse city, which can be whipped or chopped with BW. Granaries aren't needed that soon if I'm focused on Settlers first so I might as well delay Pottery until I have four cities.

Edit: Also I'm feeling a bit unsafe with only the one Warrior for my Settler. Should I maybe send the Scout SW to help clear the way from barbs?
 
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Have no time to dive deep into this at all today, sorry.
But saw you mentoning techpath TW->fish->Mining.

IF you shoot for gold spot first, TW might work, but don't go fishing then, you will have the commerce at hand and don't need the lake.
The early fishing was intended for a coastal second city, and shouted out before gold was revealed.
Plans that don't fly anymore need to be forgotten.

TW before mining? Maybe, I like having TW as it can soak up a stray worker turn here and there. And here you could possibly half-road all the way to the gold site while walking there with 1-2 warriors to secure the area (warriors move 1 turn).
I see that as more valuable then a lakeside farm. So while we wait for first settler, that is likely what I would want to do.

But as I said, don't have time to think things through fully and see if the turns line up somewhat.



Oh, and:
"Oh believe me I know, I've literally written my bachelor's thesis on HRE-Byzantine diplomatic relations in the 10th century. :p"
*bows*
 
I'd like to read that!

(surprised after all these years you've not found the "Single Unit Graphics" option..ha, been a long time since I've seen someone not have that active)

Soon as you move that scout 20 barb archers will spawn up there. I would not move him.

No free wins on Emp. Not sure I'd attack the lion right now. Good chance of losing..although I do try that sometimes for XP especially if Char. Even standing in forest is no gimme but you'd probably be okay. Goal is to progress that warrior further W without too much delay.

ha..not sure why Fish keeps popping up in your near term tech path.

Feel free to replay a couple of turns if the best tiles were not worked...no issue doing that in a shadow game.

Maybe wait for some more input on tech path from folks like My. The Euro-types should be arriving soon. As for me, I'm out....:sleep:
 
I'd like to read that!

(surprised after all these years you've not found the "Single Unit Graphics" option..ha, been a long time since I've seen someone not
have that active)
It's in German though, so I'm not sure if you actually can read it.

I know of that option but I see no reason to activate it.
 
Yep you need another warrior, no way around that imo.
Path north thru forests is saver than where he stands atm.
If your worker goes mining next, timing should be okay with some settler delay for the new warrior.

No real opinion on bw vs wheel, i guess you can never go wrong with bw if you get a gold mine for research afterwards.
 
I replayed a few turns to micromanage better and let Aachen grow all the way up to size 4 building warriors before starting the Settler just to be on the safe side with regards to barbarians.

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Behold the Imperialistic trait in action, granting me +5 Production per turn!

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Met another neighbor, or rather his scout met me.

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The Settler is finished and about to head to the pig+gold site. Should I build another one right away, train more warriors until size 5, or maybe even train a second worker to chop the forests into future Settlers while the current worker heads for Pig and Gold?
 

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I replayed a few turns to micromanage better and let Aachen grow all the way up to size 4 building warriors before starting the Settler just to be on the safe side with regards to barbarians.

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Behold the Imperialistic trait in action, granting me +5 Production per turn!

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Met another neighbor, or rather his scout met me.

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The Settler is finished and about to head to the pig+gold site. Should I build another one right away, train more warriors until size 5, or maybe even train a second worker to chop the forests into future Settlers while the current worker heads for Pig and Gold?

More settlers. Get up to 4 cities ASAP; on emperor those sites will start paying for themselves very quickly, and besides you want to get food improved and worked as soon as possible, which you can't really do if there's no city there.

I personally played a bit riskier and built only 1 warrior to fogbust, so by t38 I had already founded my 2nd city (I believe I founded it right on that turn). But what you did is perfectly fine. Considering how far away everyone is, and the difficulty, as well as the nice terrain to fogbust, you shouldn't have barb problems or troubles with getting boxed in, so warrior #3 isn't a necessity at this point. And you're already running into the problem of idle workerturns (or near-idle; if roading's the best you can do another worker probably isn't the right build). So, settler IMO should be the next build. Besides, the general rule of thumb is, except on certain deity maps: before 4-5 cities, the more cities the sooner, the better. Another settler with max imp bonuses to get the wheat + fish, and then maybe yet another for the northern fish. This is why I advocate for fishing - there are quite a few seafood resources with this start, so it's better to have it when we need it rather than need it in the middle of teching something expensive like BW! Oh, and it gives pottery discount, which by my calculations pays for 1/3 or 1/2 of the cost back by itself already.

Speaking of pottery, I still advocate for that before BW. I did the same in my personal playthrough to great effect, without spoiling too much - a headstart on granaries gets you very far on a map like this, and chopping/whipping is nice except for the fact that since this start is so food-poor, without a granary whipping might be overall slower than just hard-building settlers/workers considering the regrowth time. Also, expanding past 5 cities might hurt your economy more than it helps on a map like this, in these crucial early turns.

I'm going to try to explain my rationale for delaying BW a bit more. First of all, you want your new cities to not only be up but also building useful things instantly. If you go BW, then sure, your cities might come a handful of turns earlier. But for that you sacrifice teching power, since your capital will be unable to work any sort of commerce tiles if you forgo fishing AND you whip relentlessly all the while. So you trudge your way to pottery + writing far slower than normal, meaning slower granaries, slower libraries, slower AESTH (for alpha trade), and a negative snowball that adversely affects the rest of your game. As for the new cities - what do they build? Useless warriors? Barracks? Monuments? Sure, a border pop is good for the fish-wheat city, but after 30h spent there you're really just tossing any production into the wind, and also growing at effectively half-efficiency without a granary. With fish->pot, sure, maybe your cities come a bit later, but they'll be fully operational, working good tiles, able to build useful things, able to improve their food ASAP, and growing much faster with granaries. And it's not like the forests disappear if you delay BW. You could save some for libraries, GLib, and eventually forges/units, that sort of thing. IIRC, I chopped a library in my cap and then immediately cottaged the exposed riverside tiles, something not possible if I went BW first and then spent all the forests on building slightly faster workers and settlers. tl;dr: BW gives marginal benefit at too high of an opportunity cost, so it should wait until after pottery IMO.

I'll add a disclaimer to end this rant. I couldn't resist the temptation and finished this game with a dom win earlier tonight. BUT I won't spoil anything without advance warning, and I won't give you advice that takes into account things you don't already know at any particular point in the game. The fact that my moves worked should not, IMHO, be taken as spoilers in and of themselves, but as evidence that my advice is at least reasonably sound :).

Here's my t38 save to compare (NOTE: this spoils who some of your neighbors are, so if you wanna hold back on looking at that then by all means do so).
 

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