[BAT Mod 4.1] Help me earn the title Imperator (Emperor)!

[Fish Man]

Oh believe me I know, I've literally written my bachelor's thesis on HRE-Byzantine diplomatic relations in the 10th century.

Wowie, that's mighty impressive! Would love to read it as well if it could somehow be translated.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Wowie, that's mighty impressive! Would love to read it as well if it could somehow be translated.

I mean I guess I could run it through Google Translate?

As for your helpful wall of text, I say the die is cast, or the turn played or what have you. Since I already am halfway finished with BW I figure I might as well complete it.

I didn't plan on whipping this food poor capital soon anyway, I just figured fast chops for fast settlers would make sense. Cities can always just spam a few warriors, I'm gonna need them for HR happiness later anyway. Also maybe I can potentially steal a worker from a neighbor, who knows.



Prague has just been founded and Aachen is almost done with its second Settler. My planned build order for Prague would be Warrior->Monument as it grows to size 4, then it 2-pop whips either a Granary or a Worker depending on whether or not I have Pottery yet.

Are you really certain I shouldn't slide in a worker after the current Settler? I figure it pays for itself through chops with regards to the turns it would delay the fourth settler by.

 

[lymond]

I mean I guess I could run it through Google Translate?

Are you really certain I shouldn't slide in a worker after the current Settler? I figure it pays for itself through chops with regards to the turns it would delay the fourth settler by.

Drei neins!

Yep, I think new settler was the way to go. A new worker next would be good. Actually could whip one after BW is in but you need a 2nd worker sooner.

Good you know about binary research.

Hop that SW warrior onto the tundra hill to spot for possible seafood then I guess keep him near there for now. Other warrior can move NW maybe to that plains hill beyond Prague.

lookin' good

Prague doesn't really need a monument, but it should at least grow to size 2 for the gold. If nothing better to do short term I guess its okay. Could build a 3rd worker from Prague at size 2.

 

[krikav]

Would the timing work out, if the worker at Prague would chop another worker in prague (and that worker would then mine the gold) while the first worker who did the chopping runs down to the wheat once the settler arrives?
After wheat, that worker could then chop around the capital too, that would free up capital to just spam more settlers.

If you have a goldmine, that easily pays for the sin of teching both AH and BW before some economic tech, so nothing wrong at all with that decision. What was best is probably too close to call.
And it's always nice to know locations of copper earlier than later...

 

[Fish Man]

I mean I guess I could run it through Google Translate?

As for your helpful wall of text, I say the die is cast, or the turn played or what have you. Since I already am halfway finished with BW I figure I might as well complete it.

I didn't plan on whipping this food poor capital soon anyway, I just figured fast chops for fast settlers would make sense. Cities can always just spam a few warriors, I'm gonna need them for HR happiness later anyway. Also maybe I can potentially steal a worker from a neighbor, who knows.

View attachment 529909

Prague has just been founded and Aachen is almost done with its second Settler. My planned build order for Prague would be Warrior->Monument as it grows to size 4, then it 2-pop whips either a Granary or a Worker depending on whether or not I have Pottery yet.

Are you really certain I shouldn't slide in a worker after the current Settler? I figure it pays for itself through chops with regards to the turns it would delay the fourth settler by.

As you went BW immediately and founded Prague later (I started a worker at size 2 in that city), a worker after settler #2 would be greatly beneficial, mainly for chops. So yes, do that instead of another settler. You might not need new warriors for a while after 3 + a scout for fogbusting, considering the terrain.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Adopted Slavery but haven't whipped anything yet, discovered only a single source of copper to the far west in the tundra, I don't think it's worth it to expand that far this early especially if I only have a single front to defend, have horses and Protective to fall back on if all else fails anyway.

The Prague Worker mined the gold first because I was in desperate need for commerce, only now is he going to chop out another worker.

The worker in Aachen chopped the river grass to speed along the Settler for the Fish+Horse site and now I'm unsure if he should continue chopping or improve Vienna's Wheat.

What should Aachen produce now? More Settlers? Imo I should stop expanding for a bit now, at least until I have Pottery for Cottages. Also I'm unsure in which order to settle further cities, though I did create a dotmap with my plans on where to settle.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Since there's been no feedback for a whole day, I played a few more turns on my own until I finished researching Pottery on Turn 70.

I met Brennus to the northwest, apparently he is my closest neighbor with Justinian to his west. Between their border friction and their different religions I can already see that I will have to side with one of them against the other.

Aachen grew to size 5 on Warriors, then built a Worker, trained more Warriors until size 6, then 2-pop whipped a Settler. Prague Gold was connected just in time to boost happiness.

Vienna 1-pop whipped a Monument and then quickly constructed a Workboat thanks to overflow, which sat idle 1S of Vienna until its borders expanded to include the Fish.

After building essential improvements my workers pre-chopped a number of forests until TW was in and the roadbuilding began.

Nuremberg whipped a Work Boat from 2 to 1. I let Prague and Vienna grow until size 4, then I will 2-pop whip Granaries.

I had a few forest growths here and there, more than I'm used to.

Edit: Oh right, I just built another Settler. Should I forgo the Whale and settle on that tundra hill by the Copper ASP to secure it so I don't get too boxed in? It's an awful city with no food, but it secures Wine and Copper and being on a hill is better to defend.

My next tech should be Writing, yes?

Mid-term plan is slowly backfilling the land I have until I have a clearer picture of the diplomatic situation and a stronger economic base, then maybe using Catapults or Horse Archers to conquer a bit more land.

 

[lymond]

Sorry...a bit slow yesterday.

I think grabbing copper is good..it's a bit far but honestly you don't have a tremendous amount of good land. The copper itself is a strong enough tile less the no food situation - edit: well it is tundra copper. That site essentially locks in the East.

Writing definitely next, and maybe Alpha here on this level. On another note, I know this is Pangaea, but since a majority of your cities here are going to be coastal, and with the dearth of commerce or cottageable land, a play for GLH might be worth it here.

looks like the barb situation has essentially been neutralized.

Area between copper spot and home is a bit odd. Still don't know what to make of it. But copper spot lock that area in. Two spots to the NE (fish and cow spots) are more valuable earlier. The tundra area can be filled in later eventually with no thread to it.

One thing that seems a tad lacking here is use of chops.

opened save:

Shaka will OB

Don't think you need or can afford anymore warriors for now. Prague should start its gran.

You might start a settler somewhere to have it read, but I might not settle any more cities until Writing is in unless you have to.

edit: yeah...too many warriors...i deleted a couple..

edit: I deleted 3 warriors

edit: another thing you can do here besides deleting excess warriors is focus more on the commerce you do have. Right now, Aachen and Prague have some coastal/lake commerce they can use..even at the expense of some growth right now - at least in Prague. Sometimes you just have to do that for a while at a certain point to get in those key techs.

edit: Oh..EPs...a good thing to do with them is focus them on a strong leader early. You don't even have to think much about it. In this case, Justy is that strong leader...he's far better techer than the others you've met. Eventually you should start seeing what he is teching which can help with tech trade decisions.

edit: attaching a save after a few turns just to show how I adjusted some tiles in cities. (actually had more gold saved but some turns I push 100% toward writing)

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

One thing that seems a tad lacking here is use of chops.

Shaka will OB

edit: yeah...too many warriors...i deleted a couple..

edit: I deleted 3 warriors

What do you mean? Did I chop too little or too much?

I know, but I don't see the point in opening borders with civs I don't have a trade connection with, especially when I don't have a clear picture of the diplomatic situation yet.

Nooooooooo I invested like 15 Hammers a piece in them, they'll pay back in MP happiness one of these days! D:

 

[lymond]

Ha..but they are killing your economy now...and you have more than enough to spawnbust.

Too little chopping. Granted saving some around Prague allowed me to get GLH there...I 3popped a Library with 28H OF into it as well.

If someone is not a WE of someone then OB with them. Brennus is not well liked by many, so he is a problem, but Shaka is okay. OB starts a bit of diplomacy going..you will eventually get some positive points there.

oof, things are slow date wise on this map. I think you will have to go Aesths here for trades after Writing>Sailing> Masonry. At least with Marble you will have fail gold stuff later to fall back on.

Here's me..um ..you at 150 bc in attached save, but note that I've me all the AIs so you might review it a bit later. Date wise things are not spectacular but with GLH in, economy is very good and I can do anything from this point.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Now you're just confusing me, what do you want me to chop into if I'm not supposed to train any more warriors and I don't have anything else to build?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Several civs asked me to embargo Celtia, but I figure I'm getting so much trade route commerce I'd better keep the borders open.

Hm, I don't think I am going to finish GLH before Lymond.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Turn 120, Year 125 AD. I just finished researching Aesthetics. Only next turn will I finally complete the GLH. Turns out I should have thought a bit more ahead with my chops, oh well.

I'm using Vienna as Great People Farm for now, in seven turns will I get my first Great Scientist. Should I build an Academy in Aachen?

One of these days I'll build the Moai Statues in that far northern spot, I think that works pretty well, no?

Justinian ended his Ivory export to me just this very turn, which is why I have all of that sudden happiness. I guess I'll give him my only Horse in exchange, I am probably going to need my only Marble very soon for failgold and/or wonders.

Any recommendations on which techs to get from which civ?

Until the Academy is in I think it's a good idea to run 100% Gold to save up some cash to burn through that I will probably use to research Currency, maybe Calendar and then Literature.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Here's me..um ..you at 150 bc in attached save, but note that I've me all the AIs so you might review it a bit later. Date wise things are not spectacular but with GLH in, economy is very good and I can do anything from this point.

I finally took a look at your save: Curious, you say keeping three more warriors around will destroy my economy and I need to stay afloat at all costs even if it means sacrificing production for sub-optimal commerce, and yet there's not a cottage in sight and all the forests are gone in your game.

 

[Gumbolt]

Lymond is right. At 0% science you are +12 gold a turn in T120 save. Your unit cost a turn on your latest save is 12 gold a turn. By deleting 6 units I was able to reduce this by 7 gold a turn. (6 unit cost and 1 supply cost.) This gets +18 gold a turn at 0% science. Which is almost a 50% increase. I can imagine in previous saves you have probably struggled for commerce in cities. Which is why running coastal commerce tiles can help on commerce limited maps.

GLH is a no brainer here. Very limited commerce. Look at the huge difference in Lymond's science at 40%. 60+ beakers a turn. You are running negative gold at 40% science. GLH adds 2 trade routes per coastal city. Each of those trade routes is giving 2.75 commerce a turn per coastal city. Which means coastal cities increase commerce by 5.5 each.

In terms open borders. You eventually get +2 diplo from Ai for open borders. If you get Ai to pleased this helps you to beg gold or techs. So opening borders ASAP is important.

Also consider trade routes. These may start at 2C each but you get bonuses for sustained peace. (150%) So open borders really do matter on this game. Being at pleased or cautious is the difference of a peaceful AI or one that is going to attack you. AI are lot less likely to declare at pleased.

You were a bit slow on great people here. Looks like Lymond set up his academy much sooner. Early library/2xscientists, great scientist and academy really helps science. Lymond is getting 9-10 extra beakers from doing this at 100% science.

In terms of forest chopping. Come 125ad having forest left adds less value. Look at Ulm. It's surrounded by forest and building a libray. If it had been running scientists that is 7.5 science a turn. Those grassland could also be cottaged. What you wanted to avoid here was putting chops into units you did not need. Certainly I value chopping forest on grassland before plains forest. Grassland tiles are so important on starts plagued with many plains.

You could squeeze in 3 more coastal cities here. Moai site, deer/horse. 1S of the lake. Which could of run cottages on those 2 grassland forests..9 more trade routes at 2.75 commerce each..

I think early on if you had planned GLH you could of built it many turns sooner. Plus adjusted cities to be coastal.

Workers - You have roaded a lot of tiles here. Plus your farming plains. Why is that grassland near your capital not cottaged? Same for forest grassland near Mainz.

Trades - Degaulle will trade 4 gold per turn for wheat. Leads to +22 gold a turn at 0% science.
Horse for ivory with Justin. Helps with happiness. Also increases your gold per turn to +26.
So all my micro has added 14 gold per turn by deleting 6 units. Trading for degaulle 4 gold. Trading for happiness resource. Micro is so important on this game.

You need to trade for alphabet. If need be put some beakers in this so AI will trade for this. Then you can run science instead of unit builds. Keep an eye on Ai who might go war mode on you.

Lymond is a seasoned Immortal/Deity player who has been helping people on Civ 4 here for over 10 years. He knows the game very well. His uploaded saves are a marked improvement on yours. He looks at the details just like I have above.

 

[Fippy]

Keeping unit costs low (unless planning your own attack or defending) is overall good advice
Warriors are basically good for military police and fogbusting, as those tasks run out they might cost unnecessary gpt.

 

[lymond]

yep..all good stuff. The early points were mainly about the focus on getting Writing faster and setting things up.

You've done some ok stuff here, IK, but I think a lot could be done better. Granted, one should keep in mind that this is a slightly challenging start, so it is about making the most of it.

Also, I don't really think we've discussed whipping much here although I think you have whipped some stuff.

Based on your recent report, things I would have like to see here is the fish city up north settled sooner...before Mainz. Mainz is an okay city as it can take wheat as its food resource, but with GLH the focus here I'd like to see all coastal cities first to maximize the commerce.

Way to many roads...still a lot for these workers to do.

I think Prague was a better city to get up GLH..mainly (at the time I played through some) it had forest, food and some natural production. I put emphasis on this city at the point I start GLH to chop around it and get up some hammer improvements like mines/quarry. Plus, with that food I setup some whips like a Library for some OF into GLH.

I might recommend here that you replay from an earlier save..maybe 1200BC or 1000BC ..whatever you have available. I can't remember exactly which save I used, but something around there. Ofc, if you do that, delete any unnecessary warriors or don't finish ones that were started.

As for Maoi, I don't see that in any way as a priority here. If you had stone, you could play around with fail golding it over time, but without stone it is a diversion.

in my game, I ignore Brennus

 

[Fish Man]

Sorry for not replying earlier; I had some stuff to attend to.

Anyhow, your 125AD save is OK, I guess, but lacking in many respects, I have to say. First - agree with the critiques above. That copper city really isn't doing you any good except for costing a bunch of money; you already have no barb troubles and on emp just one strategic resource is enough for fairly easy conquests (HA rushing is quite doable on this map, as is doing something a bit funkier like horsearcherpult, which actually works pretty well because cats defend good against spears). And, of course, minor spoiler:

Spoiler :

You have iron, so you didn't even need the extra metal.

Next, the builds. You seem to be pumping units out for no good reason, which is not good. Every axeman that you build now is 35 hammers tossed down the drain and another 1gpt of unit maintenance. You want to trade for alpha ASAP which allows you to build research, but you haven't done that yet. I'll chalk that up to several reasons:

1. Early BW meant late pottery, which sorta put you in a bind where you had chops but nothing to chop. And so, I suspect, you sunk huge amounts of into useless units, which not only had the opportunity cost of libraries/granaries NOT built but also cost you progressively more money.

2. Useless cities: the one for the bronze, yes, but also Mainz. Dry wheat that's already claimed by another city is NOT a resource worth founding another city for, especially when that city has absolutely NOTHING else going for it. The cost of new cities spikes quite significantly after 6 or 7, and seems like you put yourself just over the edge. Try using WB to delete either of those and notice the difference in gpt!

3, Too many units! Beating a dead horse at this point but you can literally DOUBLE your gpt at 0% by deleting 12 units, no joke. That's a HUGE economic drain that's entirely a result of the wrong builds.

4. A lopsided idea of where should come from. Cottagespamming is a decent strategy but think about it this way - it takes a total of THIRTY turns of continuous working for a non-riverside grass cottage to exceed the output of a coast tile! In this case, I definitely agree that GLH + traderoute economy is the way to go, supplemented by very few cottages, scientists, and working coastal tiles. Even non-fin coast can get you into the medieval era, most likely to lib on a difficulty as this (aided by bulbs ofc), and so you should use those more instead of trying to slowgrow cottages from scratch.

Not hightailing it to alpha + currency is a big reason why you're behind. The two essential economy techs of the classical era - you could've traded for alpha with aesth, and then moved on to currency and literature afterwards, for GLib and even more trade routes + build wealth, respectively. Though considering the circumstances you weren't able to make it this far yet for all the aforementioned reasons.

In comparison, here's my 150AD save:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Despite a late GLH (1AD IIRC), I'm making over 50 research what you are after GLH, with a fraction of the cost. I have GLib in a fairly strong GP farm. I've also completed all the way to currency and music, and am about to nab engineering while nobody even has longbows. From here the game is in the bag - some mass whipping of trebs later, domination is mine at 1340AD. And all this, despite the fact that I have quite a few forests left for units and TWO cottages. Look at the economy advisor and notice that I'm operating lean, spending 0 on units and far less on cities, while having infrastructure already up everywhere. Also, my city placement is much more efficient - all are set up to facilitate mass whipping the second I get trebs, with a 5-food surplus or more for most of them (hey, lighthoused lakes, deer, and some grass farms - not as good as wet corn but you work with what you get). The details are what you're missing; you have most of the basics down, I'd say.

If nothing, take away from this two things:

1. Don't just blindly build and expand; every single thing you put in your production queue, every single city you plop down, MUST have a reason for being the way it is.

2. Pure cottaging isn't always the be-all end-all of economy. On maps like these you gotta get creative.

 

[Fish Man]

One other thing - the situation is kinda shaky but by no means unsalvageable on your save. If you wish you could play on and following what we say you could very much easily sweep the whole map with a lib-ciurstomp. Alternatively, you could go back however many turns you wish and try a different path. It's up to you.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

In terms open borders. You eventually get +2 diplo from Ai for open borders. If you get Ai to pleased this helps you to beg gold or techs. So opening borders ASAP is important.

Also consider trade routes. These may start at 2C each but you get bonuses for sustained peace. (150%) So open borders really do matter on this game. Being at pleased or cautious is the difference of a peaceful AI or one that is going to attack you. AI are lot less likely to declare at pleased.

I know all of this, I was merely postponing opening borders with Shaka by like ten turns because I wanted to be sure I didn't anger a more powerful and/or closer neighbor with it and I didn't have a trade connection with him anyway.

Do you advocate for opening borders with literally everyone immediately, even with a civ that is the worst enemy of half of the rest of the world? I thought it was generally advisable to stick with your diplomatic (i.e. religious) bloc and interact as little as possible with pariahs.

You were a bit slow on great people here. Looks like Lymond set up his academy much sooner. Early library/2xscientists, great scientist and academy really helps science. Lymond is getting 9-10 extra beakers from doing this at 100% science.

True, managing Great People births is definitely one area I need to work on.

Also for some reason I assumed Lymond was a woman, curious.

In terms of forest chopping. Come 125ad having forest left adds less value. Look at Ulm. It's surrounded by forest and building a libray. If it had been running scientists that is 7.5 science a turn. Those grassland could also be cottaged. What you wanted to avoid here was putting chops into units you did not need. Certainly I value chopping forest on grassland before plains forest. Grassland tiles are so important on starts plagued with many plains.

If you look at the interface you will find that most of these forests are prechopped and I was waiting for Mathematics to come in. From there I would have either chopped all those forests into the Great Library or Catapults or failgold.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, I did take great care to cottage grasslands ASAP.

Also Fish Man right after you commented that I should ignore cottages and work coast for now, I'm getting mixed messages here.

Workers - You have roaded a lot of tiles here. Plus your farming plains. Why is that grassland near your capital not cottaged? Same for forest grassland near Mainz.

Farming plains in preparation for chain-irrigating after CS as workers have nothing better to do right now.

You mean the grassland between Aachen and the Corn? I figured I'd leave that for a farm to irrigate.

The one near Mainz was to maintain health for Prague I believe.

Again, if you hover over them you will find that almost every forest is prechopped and only needs a single worker turn to complete.

At any rate, thanks for all the help y'all, I'm gonna reload an earlier save and try to do better.