Beeline Paper with Wonder Spam

[Revent]

Well, lately, I've been thinking of an idea which is to use TO to get to Theology, settle all Great People, hopefully get the Mids, follow Theology to get Paper, then trade to get Machinery (research Alpha to avoid WFYABTA limit), try to even buy the tech for gold because if everyone is settled, it shouldn't be too hard to get enough gold to buy. Trade around to get to Banking, research preqs to Banking, and trade for banking, research gunpowder followed by Rifling. Get out lots and lots of Rifles by whipping in food rich cities and building in hammer rich. I don't THINK an AI will have ANYTHING to match Rifles if this works as good as I think it does.

I rolled a map on Monarch to test it out (really, a bit of a cakewalk level for me) and didn't play it with too much thought thinking this would fail REALLY badly! I started semi isolated with Wang Kon so no tech trading. I didn't really care about building cities and just spammed wonders non stop (this could have been improved and I could've focused on better wonders for example could've ignored ToA, TGW, etc..). I managed to get to Rifing without a single tech trade in 1300 AD or so. I didn't build a single cottage all game, I built next to no farms, all my cities were coastal, yet I didn't have a single lighthouse in any of them, etc.. So I think this strategy COULD have some room somewhere to improve and be fixed on. No, I don't think it is the most optimal strategy, but I believe there is no harm (and lots of fun to be gained) in trying this out

However, I would really like some input from the better players here (almost everyone really ). I'd like this thread to be positive because although it may strike controversy (almost certainly does), any criticism should be constructive please.

Thanks!!

I've attached a Deity start to this post. Someone playing this along would be great help

Regarding my play through on Monarch, I went Hinduism->Masonry->Monotheism to start with and settler first. I played as Huyana because he starts with Myst and is IND meaning wonders get built faster. If we build some cottages, his FIN trait will kick in pretty early giving us immediate benefit. His UU is pretty darn good against barbarians so the need to research Archery and rush BW/AH is no longer as important. I started with Settler first because my tech path meant that the worker would soon run out of things to do and Settler first will ALWAYS get out a settler faster than anything else and getting City 2 up quickly isn't a bad thing if early wonder spam is the target. I forgot what I did after, but I skipped basically every tech that wasn't a worker tech and wasn't necessary to get to Rifling!

Edit: Some of you may be screaming in disbelief already at the amount of sub optimal play I have mentioned But I'm not sure this is the right way to go in this game with double corn of course. I want to refine this strategy and make it better and for that, I'd like some input

 

[vranasm]

for SSE you want stonehenge and ToA, Mids are another crucial wonder

oracling theology needs commerce heavy start, but you could bulb Theo with GP if you build stonehenge and oracle something less useful with your first GP, which is tons easier.

for Theology beelines you could study best HOF games for AP victory which have the mechanics down to pinch.

that start could use stone and lacks a bit trees for SSE/WWE

btw did you check the Ind/Phi leader I created? now in the thread was very fun map to try sse/wwe

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Yea you are going to need a gold/gem + double strong food start to do this. I think VERY early ADs Rifles could be possible though. With extreme lucky huts you could hit BCs maybe. Maybe I test this on Emp just for the lulz, deity seems a bit unrealistic.

 

[Revent]

Yea you are going to need a gold/gem + double strong food start to do this. I think VERY early ADs Rifles could be possible though. With extreme lucky huts you could hit BCs maybe. Maybe I test this on Emp just for the lulz, deity seems a bit unrealistic.

Have to admit, that would be pretty amazing to get BC rifles! Actually, although the AI tend to run away on Deity, I found that this MIGHT be able to work though because I found the beauty of this strategy was that when I finally met the AI's on the other continent, I was behind in the sense that I didn't have a lot of the techs that they did but I could have easily traded away PP, Gunpowder, Theology, Divine Right even to catch up. I only built 4 cities that game and the other AI's had 11-14 each. Then all I would need is to take all of Wang Kons matured cottage cities to propel myself forward once again. After all longbows have nothing against Rifles. So the reason I think it is POSSIBLE on deity is because you get packed in pretty quickly so if you can get to six cities, you are good to go and don't need to worry about REXing too much post initial REX.

for SSE you want stonehenge and ToA, Mids are another crucial wonder

oracling theology needs commerce heavy start, but you could bulb Theo with GP if you build stonehenge and oracle something less useful with your first GP, which is tons easier.

for Theology beelines you could study best HOF games for AP victory which have the mechanics down to pinch.

that start could use stone and lacks a bit trees for SSE/WWE

btw did you check the Ind/Phi leader I created? now in the thread was very fun map to try sse/wwe

Interesting.
Any reasons why Stonehenge and ToA are crucial? I thought they were borderline at best!
Maybe it needs a commerce heavy start in the instances that we don't beeline it's preqs. I'm actually planning to found Judaism if that is even possible on deity! It is screaming sub optimal indeed, but it is worth a try I think. Founding Judaism can also mean that we will have some trade-bait for sure to catch up on worker techs we missed because the AI are programmed to not prioritise a religious tech once it has been founded.

I will look at HOF games actually! Thanks for that idea

Yeah, I was actually thinking of your game because Ind/Phi is a very good combination for this kind of game (if not the best)! However, I think Huyana is ultimately the better leader because of his starting techs for the fastest way to Theology. That marble is actually not very helpful at all because the expensive wonder (Pyramids) requires stone. If that marble was a stone, settling on the stone followed by beelining Masonry will make even stonehenge feasible on deity!


Anyway, I'm probably under estimating the difficulty of deity regarding religion and wonder dates, etc.., but I am still sure something along these lines is possible!

 

[Revent]

Anyway, I've played this game to 2000BC on Deity, I've got Stonehenge, TGW, used TO to get to Theology. Also founded Judaism. Currently researching BW to chop out some Settlers quickly to play some catch up. Going to settle everyone in my capital. Gold from prophets should fund my expansion for a while as well.

 

[vranasm]

great prophets have best yields under SSE. Toa brings 5 gpp and stonehenge guarantees you starting oomph

touched your map too,

Spoiler :

but honestly...deity is totally out of my league... and the start is somewhat crappy too . Missed out on Mids by 4 turns :-(, but got SH, ToA and Oracle (monotheism, don't ask why), the lack of stone is really really problematic

used first GP to bulb Theocracy by ~1200 BC and was working on education around 200 BC, but lack of Rep is really killing this.

the barb rush was somewhat brutal... had to use cca 5-6 quechas... but eventually under control. managed to squeeze in 4 cities, but the land around capital is really really underperforming :-( especially that south west.

 

[Revent]

great prophets have best yields under SSE. Toa brings 5 gpp and stonehenge guarantees you starting oomph

touched your map too,

Spoiler :

but honestly...deity is totally out of my league... and the start is somewhat crappy too . Missed out on Mids by 4 turns :-(, but got SH, ToA and Oracle (monotheism, don't ask why), the lack of stone is really really problematic

used first GP to bulb Theocracy by ~1200 BC and was working on education around 200 BC, but lack of Rep is really killing this.

the barb rush was somewhat brutal... had to use cca 5-6 quechas... but eventually under control. managed to squeeze in 4 cities, but the land around capital is really really underperforming :-( especially that south west.

Spoiler :

Monty declared on me. Looked like an all out war as well! He had quite a large number of units coming my way (two stacks in total) The lack of stone makes this one difficult. If only one could go on WB and change that marble to a stone Did you do the logical move to settle on the marble? That really helped this game. Oh and I did go worker first for this because 12 turn worker= awesome. Plus, the gold that comes into the BFC is great

I think this can be changed via a scenario to Immortal though if this ends up too difficult on deity.

 

[vranasm]

Spoiler :

Monty declared on me. Looked like an all out war as well! He had quite a large number of units coming my way (two stacks in total) The lack of stone makes this one difficult. If only one could go on WB and change that marble to a stone Did you do the logical move to settle on the marble? That really helped this game. Oh and I did go worker first for this because 12 turn worker= awesome. Plus, the gold that comes into the BFC is great

I think this can be changed via a scenario to Immortal though if this ends up too difficult on deity.

nah didn't moved since it would reduce the number of hammer tiles too much (that's what was the thinking before settling)... too bad for the DoW...

Spoiler :

i got lucky out since those 2 big warmongers found another AI's to war with
kublai wared izzy and monty wared cyrus...

as per the resources.... i think you basically need both :-D change the crappy corn to stone ;-)

 

[Revent]

nah didn't moved since it would reduce the number of hammer tiles too much (that's what was the thinking before settling)... too bad for the DoW...

Spoiler :

i got lucky out since those 2 big warmongers found another AI's to war with
kublai wared izzy and monty wared cyrus...

as per the resources.... i think you basically need both :-D change the crappy corn to stone ;-)

Yeah, moving would result in long term hammer loss (of I think 2 hammers), but worker comes out 3 turns faster which snowballs.

Hmm...it's worth considering changing both, I'd like to just change marble to stone, but I don't want to see the whole map

Spoiler :

Well, I guess diplomacy played a role and I had the bad luck of the RNG gods because Monty decided to settle RIGHT next to my city and got into WHEOOH mode before Hinduism (his state religion) got sent to me. Founding Judaism did have an impact on the game by quite a bit. Normally, I found that the world is split into Hindu/Buddhists/Jews but this game had 3 AI's Conf, 2 Hindu's, 1 Buddhist and 1 No religion. I could've helped myself by spreading Theology missionary to no religion to create some tension but got a bit lazy.

Anyway, I have modified the map and replaced marble with stone. I think marble is less necessary than stone because we are IND after all and TO is not the limiting factor, our research is. I did one little change in which I moved a fish that would have been impossible to work somewhere else. That's all I've done 'cooking' wise. But it should make the game more feasible.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Well I tried on Emp with one hell of a start, and I mean one hell of a start. Double gem, gold, and dry corn with a bunch of grass river. But I still didn't hit Riffling until the 1200s, a lot of this is due to getting 0 trades from the AI as they tech way to slow. Also JC got riffling 7 turns after me, and was plotting on me due to refusing to give him Riffling. I am really not sure that this can be done that fast now, as I failed to get it with 8 cities, all the wonders, and good land. I did have a 200 BC or so Paper though, and I didn't settle all of my specialists. I bulbed MC with a Merchant, and should have bulbed Machinery with a GE that I forgot I had. But I still don't see you getting it before 1000 AD either way, I think Lib + massive trades + bulbing PP is still better.

 

[Revent]

Which is why I think this is a lot more viable on Deity. Also, I think you under estimate the power of settled specialists with pyramids in the early game; I reckon it's a lot more powerful than bulbing if you're going for a beeline somewhere near the end half of the tech tree. As for it's feasibility, someone in Tachy's deity Boudica thread got Rifling in 700ish AD actually so I'm sure it's possible with even a more direct beeline. On the Monarch game I played, I only had 4 cities and got it in the 1300's without a single tech trade. The start wasn't even THAT good!

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I settled all of my other specials. My capital had like 3 Prophets, 2 Eng, and an academy. But this is always awkward on deity due to needing BOTH the Mids, and the Oracle, while also wanting to get more wonders like ToA, Parth, and such. Then again I also think it needs to be done on Deity for the trades or MC, Machinery, and others.

 

[hzf]

I do something similar as Suleiman (sp?) if the map allows for it. You start with Agri and wheel, so if you get pigs or cows you open with AH. If you get horse and have some production (forested plains hills, cows or marble) then you can just beeline priesthood and writing, oracle alpha and trade for all the early worker techs.

The oracle will generate a prophet in 25 turns, so make sure than you have a library ready in your capital by that time. You want to get Math after you oracle alpha. You might be able to trade for masonry but you might have to self tech it. Use your prophet to bulb Theo. Tech paper while generating 2 scientist to double bulb edu. trade theo and paper for CoL and Currency when they become available. Tech Gunpowder and enjoy your 300 AD Janissaries.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I do something similar as Suleiman (sp?) if the map allows for it. You start with Agri and wheel, so if you get pigs or cows you open with AH. If you get horse and have some production (forested plains hills, cows or marble) then you can just beeline priesthood and writing, oracle alpha and trade for all the early worker techs.

The oracle will generate a prophet in 25 turns, so make sure than you have a library ready in your capital by that time. You want to get Math after you oracle alpha. You might be able to trade for masonry but you might have to self tech it. Use your prophet to bulb Theo. Tech paper while generating 2 scientist to double bulb edu. trade theo and paper for CoL and Currency when they become available. Tech Gunpowder and enjoy your 300 AD Janissaries.

Sadly they aren't strong enough on Deity to power through the AIs massive stacks.

But yes I agree that Lib will be a faster route to Riffles.

 

[hzf]

Jans are okay if you hit pre-feudalism. If you have someone like Toku or Ragnar nearby you can often do some damage if they are teching slow.

Fwiw I typically play on immortal, but I have won games on Deity (standard, pangea, no vassals).

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Pre Fued they are bonkers good, but I don't see how you can get them pre Fued. Even on Imm.

 

[Revent]

I do something similar as Suleiman (sp?) if the map allows for it. You start with Agri and wheel, so if you get pigs or cows you open with AH. If you get horse and have some production (forested plains hills, cows or marble) then you can just beeline priesthood and writing, oracle alpha and trade for all the early worker techs.

The oracle will generate a prophet in 25 turns, so make sure than you have a library ready in your capital by that time. You want to get Math after you oracle alpha. You might be able to trade for masonry but you might have to self tech it. Use your prophet to bulb Theo. Tech paper while generating 2 scientist to double bulb edu. trade theo and paper for CoL and Currency when they become available. Tech Gunpowder and enjoy your 300 AD Janissaries.

Interesting strategy indeed! Very impressive!

I settled all of my other specials. My capital had like 3 Prophets, 2 Eng, and an academy. But this is always awkward on deity due to needing BOTH the Mids, and the Oracle, while also wanting to get more wonders like ToA, Parth, and such. Then again I also think it needs to be done on Deity for the trades or MC, Machinery, and others.

Try this start. Do what seems logical. You will be rewarded

Deity gets the trades which is why I think it's possible. I will give this another shot soon.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Did you settle on the stone with this start even though you lose a corn for less worker turns or no? But yea the tech trades will push it up a lot, it's just a matter of getting there significantly faster than the AI.

 

[Revent]

Did you settle on the stone with this start even though you lose a corn for less worker turns or no? But yea the tech trades will push it up a lot, it's just a matter of getting there significantly faster than the AI.

Yes, stone seemed worth it. Plus, it saves turns on stonehenge and mids because worker doesnt need to build masonry and hook it up. I even managed to found Judaism

Through bad luck, I lost five quecha's however so going to be more careful!

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I am not so sure about this land though. Maybe I am just awful at this kind of economy, and don't understand how to use it, this is very likely. I rage quit after losing the Oracle by 1 turn after building the Mids, I could have finished it like 10 turns early but I was chopping, and lazy. XD