Bergs execution was faked by the CIA

[bigfatron]

Please, dude. Refresh you historic knowledge. Take a look at a world map prior 1914. In fact germany was the country with the LEAST colonies at all from the states which possessed colononies. Germany had exactly TWO colonies in africa, none in america and no other colonies in a original sense anywhere else.
The top colonizing countrys where UK, Spain, Portugal, France, Netherlands. Yes, even the Dutch had a lot more colonies.
I don't wanna imply that germans were the better people during this time, we just came to late.

Don't make such stupid generalization about other countrys without ANY knowledge about history.

Agreed Yoshi, Germany was late to unite and late to the colonial game, rather like Italy and Belgium.

Although I would argue germany was particularly fertile ground for Facism due to the combination of scientific determinislt philosophy that was very strong amongst the intellectual elite, ultra-nationalism led by the political elite, and the subsidiarisation of the economy to military objectives that was driven by the Prussian military.

Add in the humiliations of Versailles where the German government was, to a degree, conned into surrender and then subject to particularly harsh terms, and the seeds of Facism were always likely to grow best in German soil.

It's worth our American friends remembering that a senior member of the KKK came quite close to securing the Republican nomination in the early thirties - no country or people is 'better' than another, and no-one should throw stones. Instead, consider the saying: "There but for the grace of god go I"

Back on topic, I still think that the murder of this poor man fits both AQ's modus operandi and their objectives. Whether the unfortunate victim was drugged or even already dead when the deed was done doesn't point away from AQ as the perpetrators.

 

[Nico92]

Bigfatron, Germany wasn't better inclined to turn nazi than France or Britain. Stop your crap. And by the way, Versailles Treaty had a model, it was Frankfurt Treaty. The level of reparations requested in Versailles was based on the reparations requested in Frankfurt 50 years before. So why Versailles Treaty is remembered as the harsher Treaty ever when Frankfurt has been forgotten ?

For a simple and obvious reason. France was able to pay because they have to pay those reparations during the 2nd Industrial Revolution. On the other side, Germany had to pay those reparations while the country was stuck in the biggest economic depression ever.

As a result, you've forgotten the most obvious reason to explain the rise of Hitler : 5 million people on the dole and hyper-inflation making all savings worthless. To summarize, poverty. To explain such a fact, we usually consider it's the fault of Versailles Treaty's reparation. However, Versailles is undoubtedly the most perceptible reason of such a poverty, but it's certainly not the cause of everything.

Versailles Treaty was undoubtedly a mistake, but saying it was obvious there would be a WW2 after is slightly exagerated.

 

[test_specimen]

Let's just hope someone closes this thread fast.

(hey, fairy, I'm still waiting for my wish! when will stupidity start hurting?)

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

Can everyone take a look at the title of this thread. Don't let a troll turn this debate into something else. Open another thread by all means.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Can everyone take a look at the title of this thread. Don't let a troll turn this debate into something else. Open another thread by all means.

Thanks Enkidu. How long does it take to make a thread, 2 minutes? Whats stopping them from making a thread about Germany? Im surprised you guys let a lightweight like Hazzard bait you into ruining somebody elses thread, regardless of whether you agree with the threads premise or not. How many ignored warnings from moderators does it take before the offending party is banned?

Anyway, I guess I was naive to think that the mainstream media would discuss the allegations that the video was faked. Its too hot for them to take on. The only way it'll begin to be discussed in the mainstream media here in the U.S. is if they start talking about it in the European media. Regardless of whether or not one thinks that it was faked by the CIA or not, I think most people would agree that the video is a sham. Poor Berg is definitely dead, of that theres no doubt, but at least in my mind, who really killed him and why are open to debate.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Moderator Action: Hazzard had been dealth with. Pls stop threadjacking about Germany, and return to the original thread theme, beyond this line.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Zeekater]

Good job XIII

The main questions I have are:
why is he wearing that orange jumpsuit?
did he get arrested by US forces and then released?
what happened between his release and eventual murder, wouldn't he have gone straight to an airport, why did he go places were there obviously are no coalition forces?

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

why is he wearing that orange jumpsuit?
did he get arrested by US forces and then released?
what happened between his release and eventual murder, wouldn't he have gone straight to an airport, why did he go places were there obviously are no coalition forces?

Berg was investigated prior to this whole incident because a known AQ member used his computer password to access something or other (don't remember what). It seems this was a coincidence (he wasn't charged with anything) but it might well have been the reason he was detained in Iraq. There appears to be some confusion about whether US forces were actually involved in his detention but I think it's pretty clear that they were to some degree since he was released when his parents sued. The jumpsuit also points to US detention, though even that is a bit baffling.

Berg told his parents that he was coming straight home, but US officials say he refused a free flight home. We've no way of knowing what the real sequence of events were.

Clearly something is wrong with the story of Nick Berg. Maybe he was a terrorist, maybe he was a CIA operative, maybe he was an innocent victim of either AQ or the CIA or both. The only thing we know for sure is things don't add up.

 

[The Last Conformist]

*post removed*

Posted a reply before seeing XIII's sensible admonition.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

How deep does the rabbit hole go?

Berg, Al Qaeda linked before

By JAMES GORDON MEEK in Washington
and TRACY CONNOR in New York
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

In a bizarre coincidence, Nick Berg crossed paths with Al Qaeda years before its henchmen beheaded him, when his E-mail and password wound up in the hands of 9/11 suspect Zacarias Moussaoui.
It happened in 1999, when Berg was at the University of Oklahoma and Moussaoui was enrolled at a nearby flight school, allegedly training to be an Al Qaeda hijacker.

After Moussaoui came under scrutiny in the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, the FBI discovered he had Berg's university E-mail password.

"In 2002, the FBI was following millions of leads in the wake of 9/11, and one led to Mr. Berg," said a senior Justice Department official.

After questioning Berg about the tie, the feds concluded he had never actually met Moussaoui, who had friends and roommates at the same college.

The matter remained closed until Berg's ill-fated visit to Iraq this year.

When he was detained by authorities in Mosul in March, FBI agents came to grill Berg, and he volunteered details about his previous dealings with the bureau, the official said.

But the eerie link between Berg and the terrorist cabal that later decapitated him "turned out to be total coincidence," the official said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/193331p-166984c.html

A coincidence? We're being asked to swallow too many weird things here. I cant imagine that anyone would believe in such an unbelievable coincidence, just because some 'official' was able to say it with a straight face.

 

[JtheJackal]

You are putting way, way too much into these coincidences

 

[Mr Black]

How deep does the rabbit hole go?


A coincidence? We're being asked to swallow too many weird things here. I cant imagine that anyone would believe in such an unbelievable coincidence, just because some 'official' was able to say it with a straight face.

Well I can't believe anybody believes these conspiracy theories, just because some nutter in the internet can write it.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Mr Black, Im not asking you to believe anything, Im just asking you to think. Think about the odds that Moussaoui would be aware that Berg exists, that as a result Berg is contacted by the FBI in regard to the 9/11 investigation and that then, a relatively short while later, Berg is supposedly killed by a terrorist with links to AL Qaeda. You dont see anything odd at all in any of that?

 

[Double Barrel]

It could just be the old "seven degrees of separation", DP.

Eerie coincidence for sure. But stranger things have happened.

I think there has been too much emphasis on both the orange garment Berg was wearing and the poor quality of the video.

The orange garment is NOT a prison jumpsuit. When you look at it, it has a "sheen" to it, almost like satin or silk. The orange prison jumpsuits are flat, like they are made from cotton or a mix. But I do not think they are the same, and the only similarities are the color (which is not even the same hue, either).

As for the quality of the video, I think this is just the result of older video equipment. Many of the OBL videos have that grainy look, too, even when they are being shot outside.

Another part of the CON$piracy that I've read elsewhere concerns the white plastic lawn chair that Berg was sitting in, which is the same type of chair that Pfc. England was pictured in. But only a couple of bajillion of those things have been made, so I'm glad that hasn't been an issue in this thread.

I do think if the CIA was involved, there would not be very many loopholes to investigate. And I think any event staged to drum support for the war would have been much, much larger in scale and impact.

I think there are serious discrepancies with regards to Berg's whereabouts, his true motives and reason(s) for being in Iraq, and who/what he was really about. Maybe these will be things we never really understand.

But, at the end of the day, I think he was an American citizen of Jewish descent at the wrong place at the wrong time. Just like the four contractors weeks before in Fallujah.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I do think if the CIA was involved, there would not be very many loopholes to investigate. And I think any event staged to drum support for the war would have been much, much larger in scale and impact.

Dont overestimate the CIA's abilities too much. Remember thats the same mistake everybody else made in the run up to the war. The CIA is fallible, just like any other government agency. Besides, I think this whole Berg caper was cooked up in a hurry in response to the Abu Ghraib situation, and wasnt that well thought out before it was carfried out.

I think there are serious discrepancies with regards to Berg's whereabouts, his true motives and reason(s) for being in Iraq, and who/what he was really about.

Those are key questions. Assuming the we accept this latest information at face value: Imagine that youre Berg. You learn to your horror that one of the 9/11 terrorists had your email address and password. Youve even been questioned by the FBI (and probably CIA too). Do you think if this had happened to you, it would occur to you pack up go to Iraq?

 

[Double Barrel]

Yeah, good points, DP.

However, I have to point out, as a "fan" of reading this kind of stuff, that discrepancies are the basis of all theories.

Almost any given event, from the OKC bombing, 09/11, Waco, JFK, and on and on, have major discrepancies in the official "facts" (as endorsed by the government), which leads us down the rabbit hole even further.

If I were inclined to believe this one, then why not the others?

Perhaps there is a small rogue element in the CIA that is working to push a certain agenda...who knows.

But, I'm not sure if the CIA is really working to cover this administration's behind at this point, considering they've been made a scapegoat for faulty intelligence used to justify the war. Or maybe there are different factions within...now I'm going down that tin-foil-hat road.

It is all speculation, of course.

I find it kind of sad that the American public has become so apathetic and / or numb. We should be demanding, or at least asking, clarification on these discrepancies.

Some folks are convinced of the tape's authenticity, so they use it to support continued abuse and / or action in Iraq. But most do not care. And a small handful...well, we ask each other questions in internet forums.

 

[Sims2789]

If France lost World War I, I gaurentee that there would have been a guy named Adolf Hitlettè who would take power in France in a similar way that Hitler took power in Germany and he would have used nationalism to gain what he wanted. So quit bashing Germany just because some Austrian nut took power there 60 years ago(this is not to say that you should bash Austria).

Moderator Action: Dealt with. - XIII
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[GrandAdmiral]

I find it kind of sad that the American public has become so apathetic and / or numb. We should be demanding, or at least asking, clarification on these discrepancies.

Some folks are convinced of the tape's authenticity, so they use it to support continued abuse and / or action in Iraq. But most do not care. And a small handful...well, we ask each other questions in internet forums.

The thing we have to remember here is that the CIA is an intelligence agency. If the American public demands info from the CIA then it will not be effective. The CIA has the resources and skilled personell to be effective its just too involved with the media and disclosure to be effective. So the American public can't say get the job done in Iraq but be a an honest media I mean intelligence agency.

"If you want to attack someone, you don't do it on CNN. Rather, you plan cevertly, go in quietly, accomplish your objective, and get out leaving no traces. This methodology is standard operating procedure for hackers, military special forces, and anyone else with a clue." 2600

 

[Sims2789]

I'm sorry I've upset you - - most people can't keep up. And you can spread the blame all you want, but it always comes back to Germany. This, I know, is difficult to hear. You can handle, it though - - we will keep you safe from yourselves. Also, Americans are descendants of European stock but for some odd reason, we turned out just fine. To study our ancestry, this doesn’t seem possible. We had AWFUL parents - - - -

Hitler came to power due to a harsh peace by the Allies. Do you actually know ANYTHING about history beyond your parent's rascist perception of Germany that they installed into your mind as a child?

 

[GrandAdmiral]

If France lost World War I, I gaurentee that there would have been a guy named Adolf Hitlettè who would take power in France in a similar way that Hitler took power in Germany and he would have used nationalism to gain what he wanted. So quit bashing Germany just because some Austrian nut took power there 60 years ago(this is not to say that you should bash Austria).

Some people would explain and counter this but the trolling message was repeatedly given. You could start a thread on matter.

Moderator Action: Warned, for continuing to threadjack. - XIII
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889