Best Tile Improvement for "Plain"

The problem with your comparison is that in a few turns the cottages will become hamlets and then villages etc and the whole basis of your assertion is quashed. That is what I, and I'm sure lilnev, was assuming. In fact the main reason for working these plains cottages is for them to become towns quicker, so running a specialist is a huge waste of 2 cottage turns every turn :mischief:

In a cottage city its priority will usually be to install infrastucture and the 2 hammers from the plains cottages will be much more useful for that purpose than building wealth. The value of the hammers is much better represented by what it would cost to instal that infrastructure later when operating under US, in other words 1 hammer = 3 gold.
That is ad hoc reasoning :p I can argue as well that those EP will contribute to the EP spending modifier that also grows with time ( as long as you generate more EP ). Not mentioning that I am already throwing out the GPP ,as you requested ;) The comparison I made is the only undiscussible one possible ( just in game ratios ), and that is why I used it.

And BTW who is talking of a science city? :p If you want to build a science city obviously cottages are better. But that is as trivial as saying that if you want to hire specs in a city ,you should not cottage the wheat ;)
 
I find they are only useful when they are cottaged and that is only when I have other tiles in the BFC to provide the food output but when my entire BFC is littered with them I am at a loss as to what to build there.
I agree that they're great to cottage when you have enough food for them. They make for killer workshops with enough food and the right civics. If there isn't any food, you probably shouldn't build a city there - IMO, even blocking cities should have access to a food surplus. Otherwise they're too much of a drain on the empire to be worth it.
 
Until scientific method techs they're pretty useless unless you have a food surplus. If you have food surplus you can cottage them earlygame if not enough grassland is present, workshops, lumber mills, and water wheels are all decent on them before SP if you have the surpluses, but they are inferior to hills as production tiles throughout the game.

But really, plains are not desirable until you have scientific method techs. The +1 food on water wheels lets you spam them for a bunch of high hammer tiles that feed themselves, and they produce a little commerce from electricity+riverside tile, the +1 food on biology farms also lets them produce a small surplus that can be used to feed specialists or mines.
 
I personally like the forest improvement.

Other then that I mostly ignore them except for chain irrigation and iffy cities. Now with +1 food wheels/shops well... then we are talking!
 
For me it's not uncommon to work riverside cottaged plains, that one hammer is actually pretty nice in a commerce city since it usually lacks production.
 
I find farmed riverside plains to be nice tiles for growing into whipping/specialist size. They're like coast but with no need for a lighthouse and with a hammer replacing one of the coins.
Well said, this is how I look at plains farms as well. Since they are food neutral they make great whipping fodder, and give a hammer, while the city regrows and works off the unhappiness. A much under appreciated role in the middle game. Then when Biology comes around the city (already partially developed) with (say) 6 plains farms suddenly gains a huge boost in food that allows much bigger units to be whipped and drafted. Ignoring "brown tiles" until Biology is a poor economic strategy, better to develop them as soon as Civil Service allows chain irrigation.
But I remember that the applicable DaveMcW quote here is "ignore plains until biology" - he calls plains cottages "worse than a specialist" and doesn't even grace plains farms with a mention. While I don't know the math, etc. of his reasoning, it's certainly true that in a low-food situation you don't want to tie yourself to the long-term working of a tile that slows your growth by 1/4, 1/3, or even 1/2.
I disagree with DaveMcW on his treatment of plains tiles in a "cottage city". As you say he makes no effort to justify his assertions and hasn't answered the criticisms that I and others have made. I find it absurd to say that running specialists is better than either a) running some plains cottages (getting hammers and cottage turns) or b) running some plains farms and whipping in more infrastructure. If you need specialists to make an academy for the average cottage city it is better to run them elsewhere and develop the cottage city as much as its resources allow.

Only in the extreme case of a really good cottage city (with say a food surplus of 8 food) and plenty of hammers (so any infrastructure was already built / whipped as soon as it is researched) would running its own specialists on the spare food be justified. Even then if such a really good cottage city had the happiness and health available it is hard to argue that running more plains cottages would not be better for the city (although perhaps not for the empire as a whole) in the long term. A good cottage city should run as many cottages as possible for as long as possible to maximise its own output through the game.
I think the truth is somewhere inbetween - use them if you must (at least the ones you can farm), avoid them if you can - I suspect the thing to do is to deliberately stagnate at some size that's not big enough use them anyway by building workers, running specialists, running mines, etc., and utilize your worker-turns somewhere else and/or spend the hammers you'd normally put into the workers for developing that city on something else. And carefully consider blocking-city placement in search of a path to more food... maybe there is one.
Well I think the way you will use the plains should form part of your overall plan and your economy will be better in the long term if you do. Clearly many other tiles are better than plains ones and these should be improved (using scarce worker turns) and worked (by citizens) before the plains tiles. Ignoring them until Biology is poor advice.
 
if you have a plains forest in BFC, don't chop it, even on river, and wait for lumbermills or preserves. they will still give you the +1 gold once built. RR+plains+lumbermill is awesome, especially on rivers.
 
Thanks UncleJJ for the detailed response; my post was kind of a troll in the positive sense (I do think there is such a thing as positive trolls - it's a just small shift from "provoking argumentation to enjoy others' frustration" to "provoking heated discussion so we're all the smarter for it") because, even though I really have zero head for math, I have always been kind of provoked by DaveMcW's applicable quote. And because at the same time I tend to give Dave the benefit of the doubt, since several times I've found something he's saying to be nonsense at first, and then come to agree with it as I've come to better understand the game.

I also often actually *like* that he underexplains his statements - instead of telling you the answer, it forces you to consider for yourself why his assertion might be so, and once you arrive at it, the lesson sticks much better. Sort of the Zen Koan approach to Civ advice. :)

There are two considerations that I do still think speak in favor of his quote, though: the whip (every crack of it will probably come at the cost of either a hammer tile or these cottages) and the fact that worker turns are finite, and in fact the "more finite" you can reasonably get away with making them, the better. (They do become "much less finite" after your REX, though.)

Maybe a better guide would be "ignore non-freshwater plains without a high food surplus until Civil Service." :)
 
Something else you could do,

Instead of cottaging the grasslands and farming the plains, you can do the inverse and farm a couple of grasslands while making cottages or workshops on the plains.

The advantage of this approach :

1) You can start working the farms and grow your city that much faster. Then each extra food from grassland will let you work a plain cottage.
2) More versatile design... You can switch from working cottages to workshops to specialists if needed.

Example : you have a city with a lot of grasslands and no or little in terms of hills. You have 3 plains. Instead of farming the plains (which you won't work for a VERY long time since you will be working the grassland cottages), you make 2 farms on grasslands which you work immediately to grow faster, and on the plains you make exactly 2 cottages and 1 workshop.

The +2F from 2 farms will provide for the workshop to let you build infrastructure (markets, banks, etc) that much faster. Then when you don't need the hammers anymore, you either swap to the 2 cottage plains for the same 2F cost, or you can even use a specialist if needed. (6 beakers with representation better than fresh cottages early on.)

Obviously not recommended for tiny cities, but if you have a nice mix of grasslands(or floodplains) and plains it could be a beneficial approach. What do you think?
 
Something else you could do,

Instead of cottaging the grasslands and farming the plains, you can do the inverse and farm a couple of grasslands while making cottages or workshops on the plains.

The advantage of this approach :

1) You can start working the farms and grow your city that much faster. Then each extra food from grassland will let you work a plain cottage.
2) More versatile design... You can switch from working cottages to workshops to specialists if needed.

This is a good point, but the problem I have in applying it in practice is that it sometimes results in hitting the happy cap before I get around to working the plains cottages. If the city is free to grow, it's a valid point of consideration.
 
Instead of cottaging the grasslands and farming the plains, you can do the inverse and farm a couple of grasslands while making cottages or workshops on the plains.

Plains farms are almost useless until Biology. Most of the other plains improvements are better. Farming grasslands to support plains cottages has a net result of working 2 citizens for 1 cottage, effectively cutting your yield in half. Okay, so you get one hammer. Cottaging the grassland directly works 1 citizen per cottage. (this is where the happiness cap really gets you)

Ahh, cottages. :p

"Cottages need to be worked in order to grow."
When I put a cottage down, I intend to work it for the whole game. Usually there's a high-yield food resource in the BFC that will support several plains cottages. Basically what's being done is that the plains are being treated as grasslands with a bonus hammer, with the food resource picking up the slack. Say for example that you have pigs and four riverside plains. That will produce four hammers already, then more with a levee. To my way of thinking, it's better to just set it and forget it. The goal is to load the BFC up with as many cottages as possible and work all of them for the whole game.

Not to say that you shouldn't tile swap in a city with cottages while it's growing. It's just that I'm not a big fan of excessive tile swapping, especially if that involves stopping work on cottages.
 
I really have zero head for math, I have always been kind of provoked by DaveMcW's applicable quote. And because at the same time I tend to give Dave the benefit of the doubt, since several times I've found something he's saying to be nonsense at first, and then come to agree with it as I've come to better understand the game.

I also often actually *like* that he underexplains his statements - instead of telling you the answer, it forces you to consider for yourself why his assertion might be so, and once you arrive at it, the lesson sticks much better. Sort of the Zen Koan approach to Civ advice. :)

:lol: I think of him more as a Greek rather than a Buddhist. The Delphic oracle to be specific, giving obscure prophecies that the user interprets any way he chooses. The two adjectives I'd apply to Dave are laconic and enigmatic (both great greek words :) )

Plains farms are almost useless until Biology. Most of the other plains improvements are better.
Sorry, you state this with great certainty, but it is nonsense. :(

On the contrary; if you are still using Slavery a plains farm is more productive than many other tiles in small cities. City size greatly affects the efficiency of working hammer tiles. If you do a food-hammer analysis taking the value of the food into account: at size 5 for instance; a plains farm gives a net 1 hammer, the same as a grassland hill and much better than a plains hill that gives zero net hammers :eek: as does a plains wood. At size 10 a plains farm has the same productivity as a plains hill. At size 20 the grassland farm and plains farm have the same productivity in terms of food-hammers. They are far from useless, you don't know how to take proper account of their worth, if you think that.

What other improvement can you be thinking of? A plains cottage is useful for commerce but is not a "production improvement" so we can ignore that as they serve different purposes. An early workshop is rubbish as it is worse than a plains hill until the middle game (needs Guilds and Caste System). So then it is dependent of city size as is shown above.

By the time the workshop gets Chemistry and State Property for a 1F5H tile the plains farm can have Biology and Kremlin whipping and still beat it in terms of productivity in many smaller cities (especially if drafting is used as well). A late game plains watermill is interesting and can beat the farm depending on city size and the value of commerce. Workshops are like hills in that they benefit larger cities where Slavery and drafting are less efficient.
 
Lately I've just cottaged them if I have enough surplus food on other tiles - that's the tricky thing.
plains/cottages under US, especially if they're river-side tiles, make a decent investment. I prefer using farms on tiles with higher yields. that way i get more :food: for less population, so i have a choice whether to run a specialist or work a cottaged tile/mine/whathaveyou.

for a city with mostly plains and no outstanding food resources... the solution is not to build a city there if you can help it, heh. But in that case, farming them becomes a necessary evil for the city to grow large enough to be useful. Specialists are a decent substitute, with or without rep.

usually these cities end up cranking out low-end units that my major cities don't want to build (spies, missionaries, etc), sometimes being whipped. the fact that they're usually made to choke another civs growth makes them suited for this purpose.
 
Sorry, you state this with great certainty, but it is nonsense.

You sir, appear to have an axe to grind.

I stated that "Plains farms are almost useless until Biology. Most of the other plains improvements are better."
Almost useless. Sure, you can use them to store people until they're whipped, but you're not going to get high yields out of a plains farm until Biology. +1:food: is not a high yield.

A plains cottage is useful for commerce but is not a "production improvement" so we can ignore that as they serve different purposes.
We're discussing the 'Best Tile Improvement for Plain.' Cottages qualify as an improvement.

Metal Casting, Machinery, Guilds, and Caste System are all available earlier than Biology, so workshops, windmills, and watermills start to become viable candidates earlier in the game.

They (plains farms) are far from useless, you don't know how to take proper account of their worth, if you think that.
Well you do carry on about this, so you must be onto something. :) I don't have a firm grasp on this aspect so I'll look more carefully at what you wrote about the hammer yields with respect to city size.
 
Plains farms are almost useless until Biology. Most of the other plains improvements are better. Farming grasslands to support plains cottages has a net result of working 2 citizens for 1 cottage, effectively cutting your yield in half. Okay, so you get one hammer. Cottaging the grassland directly works 1 citizen per cottage. (this is where the happiness cap really gets you)

2 citizens for one cottage yes, but remember that you would not have that second citizen if you did not get extra growth from the farm. In other words would you prefer to have a size 1 city working a single cottage, or a size 2 city working a farm + cottage resulting in a bonus hammer and extra population that helps with diplomacy (votes), and increase the amount of free units you get?

But yes indeed even that said in the end it all depends on the happy cap. If you have as much grasslands or more than the happy cap, then yes ignore the plains completely. But if you have less grasslands than happy cap (which happens), then i think it becomes much better to farm some of the grasslands in order to take advantage of the plains tiles. It might be one hammer only but every little helps, especially if you can squeeze a much needed plain workshop because of that. (And as I mentioned earlier the extra population has other advantages.)

By the time the workshop gets Chemistry and State Property for a 1F5H tile the plains farm can have Biology and Kremlin whipping and still beat it in terms of productivity in many smaller cities (especially if drafting is used as well).
One factor to take into account though... the necessary micromanagement. Whipping around the clock slows the game down by a lot (it becomes a chore really), and even if it might be better "mathematically" in the end, players might prefer a more lazy-friendly approach even if they lose some efficiency.
 
Obviously it depends on the other terrain you have available. If there are a couple of gold resources in this city's BFC, I will go with cottages. If there is a lot of seafood, I will run specialists. I have never farmed basic plains before the Industrial period.

If I have a large amount of plains, and if there is one that is forested, I sometimes leave them unworked and run specialists. Lumbermills take forever to get into, but they are pretty nice once you can build them. Then you can build the National Forest in that city and go back to using specialists there.
 
By the time the workshop gets Chemistry and State Property for a 1F5H tile the plains farm can have Biology and Kremlin whipping and still beat it in terms of productivity in many smaller cities (especially if drafting is used as well).

Wait, does the Kremlin make whipping more efficient too? :confused: I always thought it only affected universal suffrage rushbuying.
 
You sir, appear to have an axe to grind.

I stated that "Plains farms are almost useless until Biology. Most of the other plains improvements are better."
I have no axe to grind just a different opinion and one that's backed up by maths. You've made two statements there and they're both wrong. That's why I called them nonsense, they don't make sense, and can't make sense the way you stated them.

In spite of what several people have stated here, a plains farm is often quite useful. Any tile that is food neutral and can give a hammer is useful in the right circumstances to those who know how to use it. People that say otherwise are, put frankly, ignorant. Of course it is a mediocre tile and sometimes a weak improvement but that is not the same thing as useless or almost useless. A competant player trying to get the most out of what he's been given should try to make the best use of all the tiles he controls. That means using the weak tiles as well as the good ones. Any fool can use the best tiles but the best players squeeze a bit more out of the weak tiles and don't ignore them when there is nothing better to use.
We're discussing the 'Best Tile Improvement for Plain.' Cottages qualify as an improvement.
I know and I make due allowance for plains cottages. :rolleyes: But I only build them in cities where I need commerce and not more generally like I would a farm. A plains farm (pre-Biology) is only useful for production and so is not directly comparable to a cottage, they're different things used in different ways. Which is what I said originally.

A plains workshop on the otherhand is only used for production and so it makes sense to compare that to the plains farm since they are rival improvements. I did that and for most of the early and middle game the plains workshop is a much weaker improvement than the plains farm.

Metal Casting, Machinery, Guilds, and Caste System are all available earlier than Biology, so workshops, windmills, and watermills start to become viable candidates earlier in the game.
Before Chemistry a plains workshop is at best the equivalent of a plains hill giving 0F4H and since it takes 2 food the net output is much reduced by the value of the food. That food has to be supplied by other tiles and has other uses. To get even that weak output you have to run Caste System. Very often that is a weak civic that early in the game. I know there are some powerful strategies using Caste System early in the game but they work better on higher difficulties (Emperor and above) when lightbulbing key techs is a way to compete. Running Caste System just to boost early workshops is hard to justify.

Losing Slavery to gain Caste System is a major weakness of the workshops approach. As many as 50% of my cities at that stage will have surplus food but no tiles for workshops and they lose the production potential of Slavery. In those cities I would be forced to run sub optimal specialists that don't have Rep, produce no useful GPPs and don't have infrastructure to boost the specialist's output. :(

In contrast, a plains farm produces 2F1H so that is food neutral and does not depend on any civics for its output. It is much the best production improvement for a plains tile since it is more flexible and in small cities is more efficient.

Workshops only really become competitive when you have Chemistry and State Property and enough cities with workshops to justify running Caste System as well. In a CE running US gold can be used as a substitute for food to boost production in cities without workshops. In a SE running Rep and Caste System only hammer tiles plus engineer and priest specialists provide hammers.
Well you do carry on about this, so you must be onto something. :) I don't have a firm grasp on this aspect so I'll look more carefully at what you wrote about the hammer yields with respect to city size.
You should look into city size :), it's one of the most important aspects of the game when understanding how cities work. You need to think about big powerful cities with many good tiles in a different way from little cities with a few mediocre tiles like plains. They need a different form of management in terms of infrastructure they build and also different tile improvements. The big cities are where you can produce loads of commerce or GPPs and where national wonders go to boost output. It is worth investing in a load of expensive infrastucture buildings including happiness and health. Little junk cities build a minimum of infrastructure and pump out a steady stream of units, by means of whipping, drafting and hammers. Generally farms work well in the small cities and workshops are more useful in large cities where whipping is less efficient.
 
@tinstaafl yes Kremlin works on whipping.
 
Some plains tiles are fine.

Then you get maps like tectonics, where you have your only iron and one sheep surrounded by absolutely nothing else except flatland plains. Including the iron, you can get to what, pop 5 that way? If you use plains farms you could theoretically grow clean to 20, slowly and for +1 hammer each time. Cruddy. The city is OK for low-pop whips but commerce is at a premium on those scripts so you don't want too many. Obviously you're going to settle strategic resources you'd otherwise not have, but I'd be hard pressed to settle that city if it were just the sheep (or worse just 1 plains cow and 0 else where you can't even get a remotely respectable surplus even at pop 1). I'd probably farm that city too, just so its whip cycle is less painful, but it is still pretty weak outside its resources.

I am willing, even happy, to cottage riverside plains in commerce cities that can feed them.

But for just crap flat plains early-mid game? I probably would prefer a spec for some GPP or even possibly its raw output.
 
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