Best Use of Great Engineers?

[Mesix]

Building a manufactory can also be helpful in getting wonders (plural meaning more than one) in a city. Sure, you can rush one wonder which can be especially useful for a low production city like a coastal city where you want to have the Great Lighthouse or Colossus. Planting the manufactory will net you +4 on a tile which will be multiplied like any other production tile. If planted on a grassland you can get 2 and also 1 if next to a river. If you are trying to build Petra near a desert, plant the manufactory on a non floodplains or hill desert tile. The +4 will help to finish Petra which will then add +1 , +1 and +1 to the tile.

As was said above, I would only rush a wonder when playing on higher difficulty levels where the AI has a good chance of beating you to a wonder. One exception to this that I often rush is the Hanging Gardens. Rushing this in a key city early can really help growth and allow the city to work rich tiles like mines.

As far as getting early GE, try building several of the early wonders in your capital. ToA, SH, Pyramids, and many others give free GE points without having to allocate a specialist. I often have my capital specialize in spitting out GE and can get several to pop.

 

[Monthar]

... plant the manufactory on a non floodplains or hill desert tile. The +4 will help to finish Petra which will then add +1 , +1 and +1 to the tile.

This is the absolutely worst thing you could do. Never put a manufactory on a hill. You only gain 2 production more than a mine in the early game. By late game, unless you complete Freedom, that mined hill will have as many hammers as the manufactory due to all the boosts to hills, especially if you go Order. The mine will end up with even more hammers than the manufactory if it has a mined strategic resource. You're much better off planting it on one of the plain desert tiles if you're certain you'll get the Petra. The only way you can be certain is if no other civ has a city that qualifies. By doing this you turn a normally worthless tile into something useful that will have 5 production, 1 food, 1 gold once Petra is finished.

 

[tetley]

One exception to this that I often rush is the Hanging Gardens.

At that stage of the game, one GE is all you're going to get. You can't rush HG, "but the rest you plant as manufactories".

 

[Mesix]

This is the absolutely worst thing you could do. Never put a manufactory on a hill. You only gain 2 production more than a mine in the early game. By late game, unless you complete Freedom, that mined hill will have as many hammers as the manufactory due to all the boosts to hills, especially if you go Order. The mine will end up with even more hammers than the manufactory if it has a mined strategic resource. You're much better off planting it on one of the plain desert tiles if you're certain you'll get the Petra. The only way you can be certain is if no other civ has a city that qualifies. By doing this you turn a normally worthless tile into something useful that will have 5 production, 1 food, 1 gold once Petra is finished.

That is exactly what I said. Non floodplain or hill means NOT a hill. It also means not a floodplain. Thanks for so vehemently disagreeing with me and then rephrasing my advice in a different way.

 

[Monthar]

The way you phrased it read as plant it on a non-flood plains, or plant it on a desert hill.

Edit: To clarify. In English, non is a prefix, so using it means the not definition of non can only ever apply to the the object it's in front of. Thus saying "non floodplains or hill desert tile" only applies the not definition of non to the floodplains, not to both the floodplains and desert hill. For it to apply to both you would have to include non in front of both objects.

The better way to phrase that sentence in order to ensure your meaning is clear would have been; "If you are trying to build Petra near a desert, don't plant the manufactory on a floodplains or hill desert tile." In this case don't, the contraction of do and not, will apply to both the floodplains and the desert hill.

 

[Mesix]

At that stage of the game, one GE is all you're going to get. You can't rush HG, "but the rest you plant as manufactories".

If you time it right, you can pop a GE from your capital before finishing Liberty and have 2 GE early in the game. I also tend to get a lot of GE because I build a garden (or perhaps HG with a free garden) along with NE in my capital with as many GE wonders and I can manage.

 

[Light Cleric]

My question is, if you can wonderspam so easily to get that many wonders, why do you even need GEs at all on that difficulty? I haven't manually generated a GE in ages, I only used to do it in OCC cultural games in vanilla to get The Pyramids + another GE points wonder and use the engineer to rush Sistine/Lovure, but that's mostly it. Otherwise I just go scientists because science is king in this game. I may take an Engineer and plant it with the Liberty finisher sometimes if my capital needs the help.

Also I'm pretty sure a Manufactory Hill is 6/7 hammers(pre/post Chemistry) instead of the Mine's 3/4.

 

[Unresolved]

Where do you guys get the early GE? From building the Pyramids or something?

 

[Browd]

Early wonders would be the only way to generate an early GE (other than by means of the Liberty finisher or, if playing the Mayans, the Long-Count).

Early (Ancient and early Classical Era) wonders that give GE points are The Pyramids, Stonehenge, the Great Wall, and Temple of Artemis. Other, not-so-early (i.e., later Classical or Medieval), wonders with GE points include Petra, Chichen Itza and the Great Mosque.

 

[budweiser]

Yup, a GE wonder at turn 50 locks in a GE at 150, if not sooner. Two GE wonders are better.

Now I am thinking about a city with several planted GEs in the turn 200 to 225 range. That could be quite a bit of hammers right there. Massive unit spawn.

 

[Arilian]

It is bad to not using it for rush.
Compared to a mine, a GE only gives 3 hammer.
An instant wander will make up for the fact that in 200 turn you will get more hammer than rushing it. As you normally win by turn 250 there is absolutely no point of setting after turn 150.

 

[Bandobras Took]

It is bad to not using it for rush.
Compared to a mine, a GE only gives 3 hammer.

People keep using this bad logic. To feed a mine, you need a tile producing four food. Thus, working a mine requires two citizens and the concordant unhappiness, and you're only getting 1.5 hammers/tile.

A grassland Manufactory feeds itself and gives 4 hammers. If you have to make a comparison, you have to do it between either a tile which produces no hammers (it is disingenuous to not consider feeding a tile when determining tile output), or you need to do it between two grassland manufactories and a farmed riverside tile+Civil Service+a mined hill, in which case the eight Hammers easily blows away three.

Obviously, it's silly to put Manufactories on hills, but anybody who assumes this is the best or only way to use them is being even more silly.

 

[Light Cleric]

People keep using this bad logic. To feed a mine, you need a tile producing four food. Thus, working a mine requires two citizens and the concordant unhappiness, and you're only getting 1.5 hammers/tile.

A grassland Manufactory feeds itself and gives 4 hammers. If you have to make a comparison, you have to do it between either a tile which produces no hammers (it is disingenuous to not consider feeding a tile when determining tile output), or you need to do it between two grassland manufactories and a farmed riverside tile+Civil Service+a mined hill, in which case the eight Hammers easily blows away three.

Obviously, it's silly to put Manufactories on hills, but anybody who assumes this is the best or only way to use them is being even more silly.

Compare(pre-Chemistry):

Manufactory Hill + CS fresh water farm = 4 food/6 hammers
Mine Hill + CS fresh water farm = 4 food/3 hammers
2 Grassland Manufactories: 4 food/8 hammers

Yeah, the grassland manufactories come 2 hammers out ahead of a manufactory hill + fresh water farm, but considering it cost you an *extra Great Person* and all the costs associated with that, it BETTER come out ahead or something is really screwy. Hill Manufactories are certainly not always the best or only way, but dismissing them that way is kinda silly too. I was going to extrapolate this to more tiles for a better comparison with just 1 grassland manufactory but I have a massive headache right now so this isn't a good time

There are also other factors such as Granaries and Water Mills, and whether or not you're trying to grow the city or are at a point in the game where stagnating is perfectly acceptable in that city, in which case a certain amount of food is meaningless anyawy.

 

[Browd]

I think of this in terms of food and hammers per citizen.

The manufactory hill + CS fresh water farm will generate 6 hammers and 4 food, but requires 2 citizens, for "excess" production of 3 hammers per citizen (the food is just enough to feed the 2 citizens, so no excess food). Note that this means you also cannot ever mine that hill.

The post-Chemistry mine hill + CS fresh water farm is 4 hammers and 4 food, but also requires 2 citizens, so it yields 2 hammers per citizen (I do think you need to assess this post-Chemistry, just as with a farm you should assess it post-Civil Service).

One grassland manufactory requires 1 citizen, and generates 4 hammers and 2 food, resulting in 4 hammers per citizen. Clear winner, in my book.

And, once I have excess food (e.g., from a maritime friendship), I can still mine the hill for 4 hammers on that tile as well. End result, 2 citizens working 2 tiles and generating 8 hammers (4 hammers per citizen), at the "cost" of 2 food from a maritime.

 

[Light Cleric]

The Manufactory increases with Chemistry as well. I left it out because it makes no net difference if they both increase. This also shows why I wanted to extend this beyond 1-2 tiles. It's also why I hate comparing stuff in a vacuum. "You can never mine that hill" also applies to "You can never farm that grassland tile" and one might be more valuable than the other in a given situation, just as how the food is going to be meaningless at a certain point and in some situations the hill manufactory will be inferior.

 

[Halcyan2]

Early wonders would be the only way to generate an early GE (other than by means of the Liberty finisher or, if playing the Mayans, the Long-Count).

Early (Ancient and early Classical Era) wonders that give GE points are The Pyramids, Stonehenge, the Great Wall, and Temple of Artemis. Other, not-so-early (i.e., later Classical or Medieval), wonders with GE points include Petra, Chichen Itza and the Great Mosque.

Yes, you can actually get quite a lot of GE points from early wonders.

In builder games, I can often pop a GE and GS at the same time (if I time Education's universities well).

In culture games, I can sometimes pop a GE, GS, and GA at the same time, but it's a lot harder.

Since I focus on the upper track, it takes me awhile to get Metal Casting, so getting subsequent GE's is a lot slower.

 

[Halcyan2]

Compare(pre-Chemistry):

Manufactory Hill + CS fresh water farm = 4 food/6 hammers
Mine Hill + CS fresh water farm = 4 food/3 hammers
2 Grassland Manufactories: 4 food/8 hammers

Yeah, the grassland manufactories come 2 hammers out ahead of a manufactory hill + fresh water farm, but considering it cost you an *extra Great Person* and all the costs associated with that, it BETTER come out ahead or something is really screwy. Hill Manufactories are certainly not always the best or only way, but dismissing them that way is kinda silly too. I was going to extrapolate this to more tiles for a better comparison with just 1 grassland manufactory but I have a massive headache right now so this isn't a good time

There are also other factors such as Granaries and Water Mills, and whether or not you're trying to grow the city or are at a point in the game where stagnating is perfectly acceptable in that city, in which case a certain amount of food is meaningless anyawy.

I agree with you.

There are some games where my Petra city is growth focused (mainly working irrigated farm tiles). Sometimes it is also working a natural wonder, or holy sites (in the desert). As a result, I don't have the population to work many of my mined desert hills (which have great yields). If you have excess desert hills, then working a Manufactory on a desert hill is better than working a Manufactory on a desert (you get 2 extra hammers).

Similarly, some people dislike making GP improvements on river tiles (which can be irrigated with Civil Service). If you have few river tiles and sorely need growth, I agree. But if you have an excess of river tiles, you might as well get the extra gold from always working that tile. Also, later on, there are certain developments that can make you regret creating GP improvements on non-river tiles, such as Golden Ages and Hydro Plants.

 

[steveg700]

The national wonders scale so they will always be a "wonder investment" no matter when you build them. Although in ICS-style games the number of cities can outpace the number of hammers in developed cities. Which sucks.

I wonder though (heh... get it? wonder? ... ok bad joke ) there may be some benefit to a super hammer city full of planted engineers. You miss out on sniping some of the early wonders, but the amount of turns saved on anything trained/built including late-game wonders could be worth it.

I've been meaning to test it out, but haven't got around to it yet. The idea would be a domination-oriented game and working scientist/engineer slots equally to pop both at once, so as not to completely give up great scientists.

Seems like the big problem is just that there aren't many ways to get GE's until after workshops and windmills start to become available, which is in the the mid-game.

 

[Monthar]

Manufactory built on grassland cows with stables built in the city is 3 5 as early as getting Horseback Riding if you have the cash for the stables and the GE to plant. Of course the stables requires having at least 1 pasture built, either on those cows, a different cows, horses or sheep. However, one you have the stables built/bought, you can replace the pasture with the Manufactory.

Another option is to build the manufactory on wheat, which is normally only found on floodplains or plains tiles. Since floodplains are always on a river, you also get 1. The best parts of building on wheat is you don't have to have a farm on it first in order to build the granary and you only need the Pottery tech for the granary.

Manufactory on Wheat with Granary:
Floodplains Wheat 4 4 1
Plains Wheat 3 5

If you also happen to have the Desert Folklore pantheon, you'll gain and additional 1 from the Floodplains Wheat Manufactory.

So this is 3 types of tiles in which you can build the Manufactory and not only feed the citizen working the tile, but help or completely feed a citizen working another tile.

Lastly, if you're playing as Korea you can add 2 to those tiles as well.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Compare(pre-Chemistry):

Manufactory Hill + CS fresh water farm = 4 food/6 hammers
Mine Hill + CS fresh water farm = 4 food/3 hammers
2 Grassland Manufactories: 4 food/8 hammers

Yeah, the grassland manufactories come 2 hammers out ahead of a manufactory hill + fresh water farm, but considering it cost you an *extra Great Person* and all the costs associated with that, it BETTER come out ahead or something is really screwy. Hill Manufactories are certainly not always the best or only way, but dismissing them that way is kinda silly too. I was going to extrapolate this to more tiles for a better comparison with just 1 grassland manufactory but I have a massive headache right now so this isn't a good time

There are also other factors such as Granaries and Water Mills, and whether or not you're trying to grow the city or are at a point in the game where stagnating is perfectly acceptable in that city, in which case a certain amount of food is meaningless anyawy.

My point was that people often compare the outputs of two tiles to the output of one tile in these discussions without even realizing they're doing it. A grassland Manufactory is a four-hammer tile that feeds itself; if it's riverside, you're also getting one gold. There's a window where GEs are certainly able to be produced and can give you a nice, strong production tile at the cost of only one happiness (whereas most other production setups require two unhappiness; one to work and one to feed).