Best/Worst UBs?

[bassist2119]

My first and foremost concern with UB's, as with UU's but to a significantly higher degree, is when you get them. All UB's provide a distinct advantage to their host civ, so naturally, the earlier you get them the greater the percentage of the game you're playing with an edge.

A distant second concern is which buildings they replace and how likely I am to construct said building. So, for example, as EVERY city in my empire usually start with a granary and forge with very few exceptions, whereas few games have ever built walls and castles, Terraces and mints are quite desirable whereas duns and citadels are not.
Illogically enough, what the building actually does falls to my third priority. Malls certainly aren't favored by me as they fail miserably with the first two requirements, but the quantity of stuff they do prevents me from disdaining them: an extra 10% wealth PLUS an extra 0-3 happy all while adding 0-4 health is about as good as it gets. Likewise, a terrace performs great with my first two concerns but only adding a +2 culture lowers it's value considerably - compare that to a Greek Odeon that gives 150% of the Terrace's COMPLETE bonus, PLUS an extra happy, PLUS ability to support two more artists (admittedly situational) and an extra happy late game... Not much of a comparison there.

So, fav's are Ikhanda, Ger and Odeon. Less desirable are Assembly Plant, Research Institute, and Citadel

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

I think the Ikhanda is SERIOUSLY overpowered.

 

[kniteowl]

My vote for the worst goes to the Shale Plant. It's a late arrival, the 10% prodution bonus seems negligible, and the base building is highly situational. On top of all that, it's borring.

Actually it just doesn't fit well with the current leaders traits, if you haven't noticed the Shale Plant doesn't require coal like normal Coal plants, if the Japanese Leader had non-warmonger traits the UB would be good for Peaceful games... especially for Space Race and increasing that production output and you don't have to worry about hooking up coal either.

 

[trundle]

The shale plant is really good, actually. I'm not thrilled with its late arrival, but the bonus is pretty significant for any style of play. That's more units, faster spaceship parts, even more research if you've got nothing else to build, etc. Of course, since you're playing Tokugawa, what it usually means is more infantry w/ Combat I, CG I, and Drill. =P

I wonder if the people who dislike Shale are less likely to build coal plants in the first place? I find that coal plants are *almost* always worth it, assuming you have coal, of course. And if you're warring, you should get your hands on some for the railroads, if nothing else.

The research lab... oh, how I look at thee longingly. It's late arrival, however, mars it significantly.

Far and away my favorite, though, is the terrace. No, I don't get to skip mysticism, but I do get to skip building monuments, which is *almost* like having a third trait. And since HC has my two favorite traits already...

 

[Meister]

As for the Dun...the AI uses it very well in some situation

When they build city on hills,they also will build the Dun to defense. That is the problem -- fighting a longbow with a Guerilla I,and City Garrison I and II is an extremely hard and tough nut to crack (6 + 25% hill(terrain) +20% Guerilla I +25% hill (unit ability) +25% city (unit ability) + 45% city garrison promotion +25% unit fortify)

That is 165%,is 15.9 strength...

 

[LucyDuke]

Salon? Man, if you're not playing for culture, why are you playing Louis? (Don't talk Napoleon to me, agg/ind is ridiculous.) I understand if you're concerned about polluting your GS points, but... run more scientists. Problem solved. If you do manage to get a GA anyway, well... you're French. You should be smoking cigarettes and complaining about the government, not studying. Stop complaining and just use it.

Mint, I am absolutely in love with. Almost every city gets a forge anyway, and adding +10% to a financial civ is a recipe for disaster (for my victims). It's not amazingly shiny-powerful, but it's one of those subtle add-up-quicks. Best.

Shale plants are horrible, IMO. I don't build coal plants anyway, and an extra 10% boost is not enough to convert me. Three Gorges is one of the wonders I go for even when avoiding wonders, and if I get it, well, why would I want to trade an extra for a measly 10%? Maybe in a production city, but mostly, just no. I kind of can't stand playing Japan anyway, so I might just be nitpicking, but I'd put this on the bottom of the list without hesitation. Worst.

Trading posts are great when you're heavy on the coast, which you should be if you're Viking. Ragnar on Great Plains? What the hell are you doing? If you're playing an archipelago, though, like you should, these things are amazing. Situationally, you should be building lighthouses anyway, and your navy is going to be your strength, so trading posts, I'd argue, are the best match for the typical Ragnar game. If you get some drydocks... you should never see a land invasion completed. In the right place.

Citadels shouldn't go obsolete so quickly, they'd be pretty great. My last Isabella game, I avoided Economics for eons because I'd invested heavily in Citadels (I'll confess, I loved the icon. I lost the game, BTW.). If used correctly, they're very powerful. I don't build castles much, but a few Citadels, placed properly, can be helpful. If they died off a little later, I think they'd be much more reasonable. The bombardment defense bonus, the afterthought, is great too. Needs improvement.

My 5.

 

[trundle]

What difficulty do you usually play on LucyDuke?

I used to avoid Coal plants and heavily prioritize the Three Gorges, but I find as I'm moving up in difficulties (I've been playing Monarch and the occasional Emperor game recently) this is no longer an option.

Coal plants are too cheap and come too far ahead of hydro to pass up for me these days. If I have health problems in a particular city, I might build a nuclear/hydro plant there later, but most of my cities get coal plants immediately after a factory. Depending on my research path, I can't always wait for the massive production boost (+50&#37 from power while I research another 2-10 techs. And recently, it's usually quite a few more than 2 techs, since Assembly Line gets heavily prioritized (factories, coal plants, and infantry!).

That's why I find the shale plant so useful: if coal plants are getting built anyway, the +10% is a free boost. Not requiring coal is just gravy -- not often important, but it doesn't hurt.

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

I have never been beyond the early industrial age.

 

[gettingfat]

What happen if I build Three Gorge Dam and have shale plant? Do I get the bonus from shale or from the TGD?

 

[aelf]

(Don't talk Napoleon to me, agg/ind is ridiculous.)

Napoleon is Cha/Org in Warlords. And Agg/Ind rocked (I'd like to hear you explain why you don't think so).

 

[trundle]

What happen if I build Three Gorge Dam and have shale plant? Do I get the bonus from shale or from the TGD?

I haven't tested it, but you should get power from TGD (meaning no ), but still get the +10% from Shale. At least, if you have a regular coal plant and build TGD, the goes away, and since the +10% production is listed as a separate effect of the building, I think it should stick around.

I'll test it next time I play a game as Tokugawa (probably with a hydro plant, not TGD, but the effect should be the same) if someone else doesn't do it first.

 

[aelf]

I haven't tested it, but you should get power from TGD (meaning no ), but still get the +10% from Shale. At least, if you have a regular coal plant and build TGD, the goes away, and since the +10% production is listed as a separate effect of the building, I think it should stick around.

Yes, I remember someone checking and finding out that it does remain. It makes the Shale Plant better than it seems.

 

[cabert]

Yes, I remember someone checking and finding out that it does remain. It makes the Shale Plant better than it seems.

well 10% isn't a lot
remember it's 10% of the base hammers, not 10% of the modified hammers!
So in the top production cities, it may not exceed 10 hammers/turn. somehow a waste, if you don't use it for power.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The Hammam looks good on paper, but by the time you build them, you have other things to build anyway, or you could usually trade for hapiness resources (same goes for their UU; once I get gunpowder, chemistry's next).

Favourite UB? Ikhanda if you are warmongering against AI, but unfortunately their UU is not good enough against humans, so I don't recommand them online. Terrace is also great because it's two buildings in one, and, read this: it doesn't go obselete with calandar. I definitely DO recommand whipping these in multiplayer, settler or conquest.

Although, I have once got both Great Lighthouse and Temple of Artemis as Carthage. Not recommanded, but if you can pull it off...

 

[LucyDuke]

What difficulty do you usually play on LucyDuke?

I'm comfortable at Noble, which, I know, is way way below the level most people around here play at. Don't hold it against me, though, it's a big jump from getting my butt handed to me on Warlord, where I was at a month ago when I joined the forum. Part of what I'm learning is that the trade-offs can be worth it. If Three Gorges knocks out the from the Shale Plant, but leaves the +10% hammers, maybe it's not so bad. That is what turned me off more than anything else, but I'm still put off by the name. Maybe the Civilopedia has something interesting to say about it, but how on earth does a "shale plant" relate to a "coal plant"? What is a "shale plant", anyway?

Napoleon is Cha/Org in Warlords. And Agg/Ind rocked (I'd like to hear you explain why you don't think so).

Cha/Org sounds great, though the Salon doesn't fit there as nicely as it does with Louis. Maybe I developed a Napoleon block in Vanilla, and never noticed. When I think France, I think Louis. My beef with Agg/Ind is that the two pieces exist on completely different ends of the spectrum, the way I'm looking at it. If I'm Agg, I want war. If I'm Ind, I want peace. I suppose the two can work together, I follow some of your games and I'd bet you could make nearly anything work, but not me. I need traits with obvious synergy, because I'm not going to figure out the more subtle tricks. (Yet.) I'm not saying it sucks, I'm saying it's ridiculous. If I'm warmongering, I don't have hammers for wonders, and if I'm not warmongering with Aggressive, well, what's the point?

Right back to you, though - what rocked so hard about Agg/Ind? And how did the Salon come in to play (to keep semi-on-topic)?

 

[cabert]

Right back to you, though - what rocked so hard about Agg/Ind? And how did the Salon come in to play (to keep semi-on-topic)?

there was no UB in vanilla

Other than that, industrious also gives cheap forges, which is really nice
And even an agressive game can use an oracle, pyramids or hanging gardens.

 

[LucyDuke]

there was no UB in vanilla

Ah, see, this is why I should be working at work. I can't pay attention to anything.

Other than that, industrious also gives cheap forges, which is really nice
And even an agressive game can use an oracle, pyramids or hanging gardens.

The forges, sure. But is that so much better than a cheap granary, or a cheap temple? And of course wonders help, but for me at least they're a distraction from warmongering. Attention span, maybe?

 

[aelf]

The forges, sure. But is that so much better than a cheap granary, or a cheap temple? And of course wonders help, but for me at least they're a distraction from warmongering. Attention span, maybe?

Forges are expensive in the early game, so cheap forges can really make a difference to production. You get them up earlier and you benefit from them earlier. Granaries and temples are already quite cheap, so I don't see their discount as such a big deal.

In vanilla, I used Industrious to slingshot myself everywhere when playing Napoleon. I either build the Oracle and do a CS slingshot or build the Great Library and lightbulb my way to Liberalism. This is a big deal when your research is going to take a hit due to early warmongering. Industrious also means I can pretty much be sure that I can get late game wonders such as Pentagon and the Kremlin, which I can use to make sure I stay on top of the power chart. In fact, I kind of miss having an Ind/Agg Napoleon. Stalin has this combination now, but I like Nappy's starting techs and UU as well.

 

[Good Sauce]

I miss Naploleon as Agg/Ind as well. The power of the compo in my oppinon is muct the same as the power of Agg/Fin in that each trait allows you to make up for mistakes in using the other.
Also, about the health from Shale Plant issue: As I've gotten better I've come to regard health as almost a non issue. If a city is unhealthy I tend to ignore it unless I have nothing better to build there. Obviously you should get it healthy eventually, but it's not like unhappiness that you need to remedy immediately.
Finally: Shale Plants were created by japan prior to WWII. They extract oil from shale stones by some process I don't understand. (Japan had no other source of fossil fuel, without shale plants the pacific theater of WWII would probabally never have happend.)

 

[druidravi]

Well regarding the mausoleum you get it with the same time you get Representation unless you have the pyramids( I meant have not built ) so you do get a hapiness hit in main cities with +3 happiness could be less than garrison troop happiness and lesser cities which don't get representation hapiness. Around that time mausoleum gives extra hapiness from both the +2 and -50% ww reduction making it a must have building .

Aggresive industrious is strong . In vanilla I used to chop stonehenge and oracle finding Code of Laws for Relegion , courthouses, caste system and those gp points give you a Priest soon which helps you get that shrine.
Then I go to war meanwhile massing troops, the shrine and courthouses and +1 from free obseliks and great merchant speciasts help me from going total broke when I go total war.