BETA: 1.25 (#2)

[keldath]

cool xyth.

one day ill get to it

please keep this wonderful mod going.

 

[SpartanU]

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this too.

I'd agree that the priests are too powerful in the same way that social welfare, environmentalism and great doctors are overpowered.

The main reason why I think these are overpowered are they impact dissent too much. Any impact to happiness or health have a huge impact on dissent; every excess happiness or health provides -5 dissent, so if you want to have a big impact on dissent you would be better off using doctors or priests as your specialist. I think this undermines how the dissent mechanic is intended to work with the civics, because it pushes players towards a restitution and egalitarian playstyle every playthrough. Players are better off using doctors or priests over spies to reduce dissent in their cities.

Great doctors (by building a hospital) and sustainability also eliminate completely the need for dissent management in many cases by eliminating the unhealthiness from population and generating an enormous amount of excess health. Social welfare is in a similar situation, where the excess happiness from corps no longer keeping unhappiness high. The happiness/health effects of these civics end up being more significant than the actual change in dissent from the civics themselves.

I think the biggest issue is the excess happiness and excess health reducing dissent, I think dissent should just be increased when these values are negative.

It hasn't been a huge issue for me so far, but I do notice that every game I fall into the same civics out of necessity/advantage. I think bug fixes and integration of the adv diplomacy and other features should probably be addressed first, but eventually dissent balancing should be revisited.

 

[Luzzy00]

I'd agree that the priests are too powerful in the same way that social welfare, environmentalism and great doctors are overpowered.

The main reason why I think these are overpowered are they impact dissent too much. Any impact to happiness or health have a huge impact on dissent; every excess happiness or health provides -5 dissent, so if you want to have a big impact on dissent you would be better off using doctors or priests as your specialist. I think this undermines how the dissent mechanic is intended to work with the civics, because it pushes players towards a restitution and egalitarian playstyle every playthrough. Players are better off using doctors or priests over spies to reduce dissent in their cities.

Great doctors (by building a hospital) and sustainability also eliminate completely the need for dissent management in many cases by eliminating the unhealthiness from population and generating an enormous amount of excess health. Social welfare is in a similar situation, where the excess happiness from corps no longer keeping unhappiness high. The happiness/health effects of these civics end up being more significant than the actual change in dissent from the civics themselves.

I think the biggest issue is the excess happiness and excess health reducing dissent, I think dissent should just be increased when these values are negative.

It hasn't been a huge issue for me so far, but I do notice that every game I fall into the same civics out of necessity/advantage. I think bug fixes and integration of the adv diplomacy and other features should probably be addressed first, but eventually dissent balancing should be revisited.

Agree with this and there are there might be more important things to tackle with his time. Most other dissent reducing mechanics come late in game. Except for odd great doctor here or there but even then it’s only hospitals that are overly strong.

Polytheism’s Unlimited citizens that can be priests completely undermines the entire dissent mechanic that unlocks as soon as your found a religion.

 

[eysteinn]

Windows. No one was aggressive. England and the Inca were the only ones who would make an embassy treaty then quickly break it over and over, only once declaring war around 1500. I had a peaceful Kublai Khan and Montezuma as neighbors. I stomped them and they peaced out easily.

 

[dretnoth]

Thank that you still polishing this mod.
Win 7, 64x (Bug mod still not working properly)

=I want to ask about Russian unit icons: Rifleman and Kosak(Cavalery) Its look like the icon for unique cavalery has been applied on riflemen. (Playing Russia.)

=Playing on higher difficulty and i have feeling that the combat odds dint compute a hidden difficulty stats and hidden defend bonus for all defender (no none fortify bonus (if yes then its extra hidden)) It work between two warriors and it work between units that have strength 20 to 10 and combat odds 98%. Ground and navy. (dint get to Air) Its happens too offend to be coincidence or bad luck. If shall I think about dice rolls, its merely look like opponent dice got bigger (amount of numbers on roll) compare to mine. And I don't think its aggressive barbarian ON option. And I dint think its the bug mod problem either. (Its just the maths behind it bugging me and i have feeling something missing.)[attached Picture]

=I think there is some breaker (or wrench in wells) in game AI world diplomacy, that cause AI chose not declare war.
Evidence 1: stage: Everyone know everyone, one Continent. Peace as long as i remember. I declare war to someone. Then a wide world war erupt. (Every one against someone. Dint remember if the next turn or few.)
Evidence 2: The flames of war calm down to relative long time of peace, when one per one making peace. (Not me I finish the deal)
Evidence 3: I massive change my Tenets (1. time after take the religion, and everyone has its own religion) and next turn second Word war erupt. (All AI is in war whit someone.)
Then Apostolic palace put vote to declare war against someone. (No aggressive AI)

=One AI ask me for a huge amount of money. I decline and ask for all his money (significantly lower amount) he happily accept mi demands, even when he was to deep in negative attitude towards me. Was the AI after the unbreakable peace period that come from this bargain?

=In my game I been bothered by constant spy raids on my bank. And I start thinking keeping spies in my cities, or on roads from borders dint do anything to lower the odds for robbery. Its the only option to catching the spies having more spy point that opponent? and don't investing not even 10% into espionage cause this effect? Have stealing from capital effect that bypass that 75% limit? Or just total overpower of spy-points can be used to this abuse?

Spoiler AI Trade :

=I know that the diplomacy and trade its not Finnish bud its bugging me AI can ask for anything and I find red No if I want something.
-I found it problematic that from begging we have a negative attitude to each others. Its difficult to build up good relation ships, when every one is to different. (Giving them gifts dint look to work. But sending money per turn to all have some effect to not pick up a war whit me.)
-Constantly offering unfair trade (resources (good trade for them, poor trade for me) ) and then after some time it cancel the normal trade. Its look like the AI hope to get better profit from it. I can get it if it have it from another source. But what if the AI actually do something like this. (cca have 2 wheat. Shipping one to me. Then sold the second to someone else. Ups he don't have any wheat, so the deal whit me is cancelled. )(Just conclusions, the main reason is the apathy and "I don't like you much")
-How about more colours for future in trade page if I want something. Like green no extra taxes (or low) on this "item" if you wanted. Yellow medium taxes. Red High. Dark Red = forget about it. Gray = unable to processes. (probably not possible)

Spoiler Future dissent :

Dint know how to feel about all that doctors and priests, because i dint really using them or giving them that much look, bud-- I was thinking about a way how to fight dissent on external collonys by pure military force. Just any unit give x-value (like -2 dissent) and then there will be traits, civics, tenets that can increase it.
The modifier based on percentage will not apply and instead it will generate a y-value based on %of not yours population * size of city * (1-5 overall differences)
The imperialist can be changed from "no conquest resistance" to have great boof for units fighting whit dissent.

 

[SpartanU]

=In my game I been bothered by constant spy raids on my bank. And I start thinking keeping spies in my cities, or on roads from borders dint do anything to lower the odds for robbery. Its the only option to catching the spies having more spy point that opponent? and don't investing not even 10% into espionage cause this effect? Have stealing from capital effect that bypass that 75% limit? Or just total overpower of spy-points can be used to this abuse?

I agree with this, the constant raids make it impossible to keep a gold balance on most games; it's really problematic because you always need to be producing a surplus, and you can't weigh science to generate you zero gold unless you happen to have a balanced budget that's a factor of 10%. I think the biggest problem is the difference in value between stealing tech and gold. You can usually buy a tech for ~1000g, but if you were to steal 1000g it would be a lot cheaper than stealing 1000g worth of tech. In my opinion stealing tech is way too hard, and stealing gold is way too easy.

 

[rsab]

Hi Xyth, one thing I'm missing from previous versions:

On the Victory Screen there was a page called Settings, and it's not available anymore. I like to check what are the settings of the current game since I forget them if the game is long.

 

[rsab]

Ok, so my first day playing this new version.

At early game, I've noticed:

-AI is repeatedly offering and canceling the "Right of passage" and "Create embassy" diplomatic options.
-When AI cancels "Right of passage", they say something like "Ok, we now want to cancel the following pact or agreement:" but the space is empty (it should appear "Right of passage agreement").
-"Right of passage" is supposed to offer movement through borders only to not military units. I've noticed the RAM unit is able to use this Right of passage, while a siege unit may be considered a military unit.

I hope my english is clear enough.

 

[dretnoth]

Hi Xyth, one thing I'm missing from previous versions:

On the Victory Screen there was a page called Settings, and it's not available anymore. I like to check what are the settings of the current game since I forget them if the game is long.

If you really need make check or correction, ingame Word editior (CRTL+W) have access to this settings. Or at last heaved last version.

 

[Xyth]

I'll be doing another pass at dissent after 1.25 is done so I won't respond to those comments for now. The question I have at the moment is: with dissent unchanged and ignoring Polytheism and Social Welfare for the moment, how much happiness/health do you think priest and doctor specialists should provide?

Windows. No one was aggressive. England and the Inca were the only ones who would make an embassy treaty then quickly break it over and over, only once declaring war around 1500. I had a peaceful Kublai Khan and Montezuma as neighbors. I stomped them and they peaced out easily.

=I think there is some breaker (or wrench in wells) in game AI world diplomacy, that cause AI chose not declare war.
Evidence 1: stage: Everyone know everyone, one Continent. Peace as long as i remember. I declare war to someone. Then a wide world war erupt. (Every one against someone. Dint remember if the next turn or few.)
Evidence 2: The flames of war calm down to relative long time of peace, when one per one making peace. (Not me I finish the deal)
Evidence 3: I massive change my Tenets (1. time after take the religion, and everyone has its own religion) and next turn second Word war erupt. (All AI is in war whit someone.)
Then Apostolic palace put vote to declare war against someone. (No aggressive AI)

Yeah, games are still more peaceful than they should be. Investigating. If anyone has any insights, let me know.

=I want to ask about Russian unit icons: Rifleman and Kosak(Cavalery) Its look like the icon for unique cavalery has been applied on riflemen. (Playing Russia.)

Fixed, thanks.

=Playing on higher difficulty and i have feeling that the combat odds dint compute a hidden difficulty stats and hidden defend bonus for all defender (no none fortify bonus (if yes then its extra hidden)) It work between two warriors and it work between units that have strength 20 to 10 and combat odds 98%. Ground and navy. (dint get to Air) Its happens too offend to be coincidence or bad luck. If shall I think about dice rolls, its merely look like opponent dice got bigger (amount of numbers on roll) compare to mine. And I don't think its aggressive barbarian ON option. And I dint think its the bug mod problem either. (Its just the maths behind it bugging me and i have feeling something missing.)[attached Picture]

I haven't changed anything here.

=One AI ask me for a huge amount of money. I decline and ask for all his money (significantly lower amount) he happily accept mi demands, even when he was to deep in negative attitude towards me. Was the AI after the unbreakable peace period that come from this bargain?

That seems odd. If it happens again, please post a saved game.

=I know that the diplomacy and trade its not Finnish bud its bugging me AI can ask for anything and I find red No if I want something.

It would be nice to have a way of marking your own items as 'red' so that the AI stop bothering you about them. I have no idea if that is possible though.

-How about more colours for future in trade page if I want something. Like green no extra taxes (or low) on this "item" if you wanted. Yellow medium taxes. Red High. Dark Red = forget about it. Gray = unable to processes. (probably not possible)

Beyond the scope of 1.25.

I agree with this, the constant raids make it impossible to keep a gold balance on most games; it's really problematic because you always need to be producing a surplus, and you can't weigh science to generate you zero gold unless you happen to have a balanced budget that's a factor of 10%. I think the biggest problem is the difference in value between stealing tech and gold. You can usually buy a tech for ~1000g, but if you were to steal 1000g it would be a lot cheaper than stealing 1000g worth of tech. In my opinion stealing tech is way too hard, and stealing gold is way too easy.

=In my game I been bothered by constant spy raids on my bank. And I start thinking keeping spies in my cities, or on roads from borders dint do anything to lower the odds for robbery. Its the only option to catching the spies having more spy point that opponent? and don't investing not even 10% into espionage cause this effect? Have stealing from capital effect that bypass that 75% limit? Or just total overpower of spy-points can be used to this abuse?

Check the Espionage Advisor and see what their mission cost modifier is vs. you. Espionage shouldn't be neglected, the AI will take advantage if it is. That said, I'm going to make a number of adjustments to espionage mission costs and difficulties because some of them aren't scaling well due to changes made elsewhere. I'm also going to lower the amount that can be stolen to 50% (from 75%) and increase the hammer cost of Spies.

On the Victory Screen there was a page called Settings, and it's not available anymore. I like to check what are the settings of the current game since I forget them if the game is long.

This info has been moved to the 'System' page of the Mod Settings screen (cog icon).

-AI is repeatedly offering and canceling the "Right of passage" and "Create embassy" diplomatic options.

Any particular leader or all of them?

-When AI cancels "Right of passage", they say something like "Ok, we now want to cancel the following pact or agreement:" but the space is empty (it should appear "Right of passage agreement").

If you could get a screenshot of this that would help.

-"Right of passage" is supposed to offer movement through borders only to not military units. I've noticed the RAM unit is able to use this Right of passage, while a siege unit may be considered a military unit.

Same was true of Siege Towers, Byzantine Flamethrowers, and Machine Guns. Have fixed for all, thanks.

 

[rsab]

This info has been moved to the 'System' page of the Mod Settings screen (cog icon).

Cool. It makes more sense.

Any particular leader or all of them?

I think all of them. At least I've noticed for sure: Dihya (berber) Ateas (scythian) or Gilgamesh (sumerian)

If you could get a screenshot of this that would help.

Ok, I'm attaching various pics




Still I would like to add one more suggestion:

Now the advisor says "X leader will trade Y resource". But that's not true, since the X leader has a surplus of the Y resource but he really don't want to trade it with you. What the advisor is really meaning is "X leader IS ABLE to trade X resource". In previous versions the same message only appeared when the AI was disposed to trade the resource.

 

[SpartanU]

I'm having some issues with founding Druidism, if you watch the whole movie it sometimes crashes after clicking OK. Other times it won't play the movie at all and you have to hit ESC to get out of the window (I put a jpeg of this below, my printscreen settings were messed up so its fuzzy quality). I tried Olypianism to see if it was all religions, but it just seems to be Druidism.

 

[Grassland Farm]

Some inputs you might have seen already, from my first game in beta:
AI breaking embassies and the likes (which gives the a -1 opinion towards me, as well), usually asking to re-establish that same embassy later.
AI asking me to trade resources, one of mine that they need vs one of theirs that I already have. ("Surely, you must be joking..." tooltip)

I read some people mentioning AI passivity - My game has been fairly bloody, so I won't complain.

On a semi-related note: I've never modded civ4 much, but is there an easy way to make the World mapscript spawn less mountains? It's creating HUGE ranges on large maps, and on smaller maps it's creating small clusters that isolate resources.

 

[Xyth]

Cool. It makes more sense.

My plan is for the entire Victory Advisor to be removed, eventually. Victory details will move to a redesigned Info Screen and all the U.N. stuff will move to the new Foreign Advisor.

Ok, I'm attaching various pics

Thanks. Really not sure why this is happening but I'll hopefully figure it out.

Now the advisor says "X leader will trade Y resource". But that's not true, since the X leader has a surplus of the Y resource but he really don't want to trade it with you. What the advisor is really meaning is "X leader IS ABLE to trade X resource". In previous versions the same message only appeared when the AI was disposed to trade the resource.

What do you mean by advisor? The Foreign Advisor screen?

I'm having some issues with founding Druidism, if you watch the whole movie it sometimes crashes after clicking OK. Other times it won't play the movie at all and you have to hit ESC to get out of the window (I put a jpeg of this below, my printscreen settings were messed up so its fuzzy quality). I tried Olypianism to see if it was all religions, but it just seems to be Druidism.

This problem has been around for ages and as far as I can tell is due to some incompatibility the new Religious movies have with certain graphics chipsets. Doesn't affect everyone. Beyond my skills to fix, unfortunately.

AI breaking embassies and the likes (which gives the a -1 opinion towards me, as well), usually asking to re-establish that same embassy later.

I'm working on fixing these issues.

AI asking me to trade resources, one of mine that they need vs one of theirs that I already have. ("Surely, you must be joking..." tooltip)

I'm not quite sure what you mean here, isn't this something the AI has always done?

I read some people mentioning AI passivity - My game has been fairly bloody, so I won't complain.

Good to know, what settings are you using?

On a semi-related note: I've never modded civ4 much, but is there an easy way to make the World mapscript spawn less mountains? It's creating HUGE ranges on large maps, and on smaller maps it's creating small clusters that isolate resources.

The World map script is quite customisable if you're willing to delve into the map script file and change some parameters. The file is /History Rewritten/PrivateMaps/World.py, open it in a good text editor and search for "def initialize" (no quotes). Below this are a whole bunch of parameters (with descriptions) you can experiment with. Lowering 'PeakPercent' will achieve most of what you want.

 

[dripdrip]

Windows version.
It is now turn 22. According to the Foreign adviser screen, Javan leader Gajah Mada seems to adopt Democracy civic....
Is it correct or am I misunderstanding something?
And could you please explain the meaning of the circular arrow at the bottom-right corner of civic icons?

Edit : Sorry, I misunderstood. I didn't know that the Political trait allowed him to adopt all government civics. It seems very powerful trait

 

[rsab]

What do you mean by advisor? The Foreign Advisor screen?

No. I mean to the sentences they appear on the top-left of the main screen at the start of each turn. In this case they appear in blue color. I think it may be called Event Log.


I forgot to say: all the time I've been playing on a Windows System.

 

[Xyth]

And could you please explain the meaning of the circular arrow at the bottom-right corner of civic icons?

That means you've both adopted that same civic. If you see a gold star there, that means it's that leader's favourite civic.

No. I mean to the sentences they appear on the top-left of the main screen at the start of each turn. In this case they appear in blue color. I think it may be called Event Log.

Ah okay. Those messages are provided by BUG and aren't triggering properly with the diplomacy changes. Haven't figured out why yet, but I'm working on it.

 

[rsab]

Hi Xyth, playing on Windows I've noticed the Impi unit (Zulu) can do kind of a double movement over rivers. I attach a saved game were you can check yourself.

 

[dripdrip]

My neighbor leader Taizong founded Confucianism and converted to it. (My religion is Islam.) He immediately cancelled our embassy and Right of passage agreements. Then he became annoyed towards me by himself. He is saying "You recalled your ambassador" and "You dissolved our economic agreement" though I did nothing to him...

 

[Xyth]

Hi Xyth, playing on Windows I've noticed the Impi unit (Zulu) can do kind of a double movement over rivers. I attach a saved game were you can check yourself.

I'm not noticing anything unusual. Can you please give more details on how you were moving the Impi?

My neighbor leader Taizong founded Confucianism and converted to it. (My religion is Islam.) He immediately cancelled our embassy and Right of passage agreements. Then he became annoyed towards me by himself. He is saying "You recalled your ambassador" and "You dissolved our economic agreement" though I did nothing to him...

He will have changed his tenets when converting to Confucianism, and his attitude towards will have fallen since you now have fewer Tenets in common. The attitude penalties from the broken agreements is a bug I'm working on fixing.