Better RoM: BuildingUpgradeChains & Balance

[NBAfan]

Indeed, that is sad :hand Afforess a tissue and cry on my own tissue:. And, even more shamefully is this; that I have Noble at maximum and I'm willing to accept Killtech's work in my game because I find that it is far more balanced than ever before .

Yes it is very balanced.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It truly is saddening; but we don't get much to work with here. You just reject everything we do out of hand, with no explanations.

I thought I had given explanations and reasons/reasonings, but they seem to rejected for the most part outright.

I haven't rejected everything you all have done, but I have played the critic.

I Thanked You, Afforess, for continuing the betas. That means I'm playing them. I've tried to address the balance issues for lower level players but I get veiled ridicule from others (yes os79 that means you and your tissue, etc.). I've asked why this or that has been changed. Sometimes I get a reasonable response, sometimes I get that's the way it is get over it. Or I play on deity and Noble is cheat (yes you killtech). I feel that some of the changes are done in the name of better AI or balance but are in many cases overkill and why? Because without them they don't fit the uber players way of playing the game. I'm Not an Uber player, I play for fun. If you need to look down at me that's your prerogative. But is it right?

If you would look at the broader picture, how many Noble and below players even voice an opinion on these changes anymore? Not too many, there are a few and I'm the most vocal so I get the heat. I've been raked over the coals before. It'll happen again.

Sorry you all dislike my criticisms. I've tried to explain, but apparently I've failed in making it understandable and clear. I tried, it didn't work.

JosEPh

 

[Arakhor]

I'm only a "fun" Noble player too. I don't even play that often. I generally don't have the time to keep up with all the betas and play significant games!

 

[Killtech]

I thought I had given explanations and reasons/reasonings, but they seem to rejected for the most part outright.

i didn't reject your concerns but your argument was flawed:

There was a Huge discussion over the AI clearing forest too much. And everyone then agreed that needed addressed, even you. So various modmods came out. Even Zappara didn't cause Workshops and Watermills to deforest the tile. Now you backpedal in the name of realism?

the forest spreading rules has been changed to address this. e.g. forest growth doens't need a neighboring forest tiles anymore among other changes. this is a different approach.

you referred to a situation that is no more. a different approach means the problem won't appear the same way as it was before. if the AI will try to kill all forest they will simply regrow. not sure how current the status is on the overgrow feature but not worked improvements can even be overgrown by forests (and thus destroyed). so it should require either a high population or constant cutting to keep the forest spread at bay. that is how the new concept was intended to work.

And whats wrong with lots of production? That's progress. The AI gets it too so it's not unbalanced.

actually it doesn't profit on the exploit on the same scales like human players do. e.g. it couldn't wait for the forest to spread on a hill before it built a mine on it.

that's no outright rejection - not even a rejection at all. just pointing out that your argument is not fully correct.

IMHO your reasoning is flawed, Workshops nor watermills deforest the nearby land. If you think it's appropo for Cottages I won't disagree on that. And why would trading post deforest the land?

as for the trading posts: why should a trading post in the woods be better then one in a grass land? in a forest you bandits would have an easier way to rob merchants. there shouldn't just be any yield difference whether you place a improvement into a forest or not if it is not a improvement which functionally is not related to woods in any way.

i think here you just misunderstood me. i do not care as much if a trading post is showed within or without a forest. but i do care that it actually makes a big difference for the game because the forest-trading post is much better then the one in a deforested area. i see no reason behind this. additionally as stated above the AI won't wait for forest spread before building it. it seems just to be an unintended feature - an exploit.

i'm not even against that that certain improvements don't clear forest. i'm okay if watermils and workshops wouldn't do it. But: there shouldn't either be a yield difference between forest and no forest improvements or such improvements should in no way hinder forest spread to their tile afterwards or they just clear the forest.

but my personal preference is that most improvements should clear forest - especially those who should do it for realism itself - and a high forest spread and frequent unworked improvements overgrow ratio.

I know you won't change it. And I've stated my view of it. So there we sit on opposite sides of the fence.

don't be so pessimistic. this thread is the best example that i have moved on many issues with my BuildingUpgradeChains modification due to constructive criticism.

I Thanked You, Afforess, for continuing the betas. That means I'm playing them. I've tried to address the balance issues for lower level players but I get veiled ridicule from others (yes os79 that means you and your tissue, etc.). I've asked why this or that has been changed. Sometimes I get a reasonable response, sometimes I get that's the way it is get over it. Or I play on deity and Noble is cheat (yes you killtech). I feel that some of the changes are done in the name of better AI or balance but are in many cases overkill and why? Because without them they don't fit the uber players way of playing the game. I'm Not an Uber player, I play for fun. If you need to look down at me that's your prerogative. But is it right?

the "noble = cheats on" was a statement i referred to myself and not to anyone else. however i reject the critic that my arguments and observations are invalid because i play on a higher difficulty. in particular i'm referring to the research rate problem. because it surely will affect me much more then on noble difficulty. and due to my observations and the feedback of others the increased expenses don't cause any overkill so far. only the excessive expansion strategy is reduced back to the vanilla level.

If you would look at the broader picture, how many Noble and below players even voice an opinion on these changes anymore? Not too many, there are a few and I'm the most vocal so I get the heat. I've been raked over the coals before. It'll happen again.

players who play on higher difficulties suffer the same problems like players on noble - and they hurt much more.

just try one time to play a bit differently then usual not building so many setters and concentrating on buildings instead. try one time not to get every resource early on but conquer it later after your cities are developed enough to produce nice military force in few turns. try to not build ANY cities if it means that you would have a negative balance at 70% research rate but instead try to fix your income problem by building the proper commerce&gold buildings and look how the game play if you follow this one basic rule.

 

[generalstaff]

I'm only a "fun" Noble player too. I don't even play that often. I generally don't have the time to keep up with all the betas and play significant games!

Same, here except my excuse involves time spent modding and breaking too many saves. IMO, the release of Civ5 means stable, static versions of RoM and AND, which will allow significant games.

I also have a solution for the Deforesting issue is to have a separate option on the installer to have the module which involves most improvements removing Forests. Since it appears most people want it, have it be default for AND Multiplayer. It seems that Better RoM and Building Chains may be getting big to the point of needing to be broken up so that people who dislike 10% of the content do not feel like they are losing out on the much greater 90% That is the reason that Hydro's HAND is in multiple pieces, same with the units that came with my Modular Civics Buildings.

 

[NBAfan]

It seems that Better RoM and Building Chains may be getting big to the point of needing to be broken up so that people who dislike 10% of the content do not feel like they are losing out on the much greater 90% That is the reason that Hydro's HAND is in multiple pieces, same with the units that came with my Modular Civics Buildings.

I agree, that way everyone can be happy.

 

[Killtech]

updated the OP with new version

[...] It seems that Better RoM and Building Chains may be getting big to the point of needing to be broken up so that people who dislike 10% of the content do not feel like they are losing out on the much greater 90% That is the reason that Hydro's HAND is in multiple pieces, same with the units that came with my Modular Civics Buildings.

the mod is already split up in many files with adequate name prefixes so everyone can delete which part of the mod he doesn't like. i don't have any particular idea how to split it up in sole mods. but if there is a need for it i could do it. but since the mod is part of AND anyway maybe it's best to let Afforess decide.

 

[os79]

Don't worry too much. You have even more time now than before because 1.74 is already released. Afforess can't incorporate your new version until 1.75 due to savegame breaking.

 

[Killtech]

new update: ported hydros science mod as extension for the BUC.

 

[Hydromancerx]

This is great news. Thanks for adopting that killtech. I am glad atleast one of the mods in HAND got a new home.

 

[JosEPh_II]

you referred to a situation that is no more. a different approach means the problem won't appear the same way as it was before. if the AI will try to kill all forest they will simply regrow. not sure how current the status is on the overgrow feature but not worked improvements can even be overgrown by forests (and thus destroyed). so it should require either a high population or constant cutting to keep the forest spread at bay. that is how the new concept was intended to work.

Doesn't work that way in my games so far.

All the pre chop has really done is cause the AI to chop all jungle down. They Don't build Jungle camps anymore either. So basically we've went around in a circle and are back to basic CIV IV.

just try one time to play a bit differently then usual not building so many setters and concentrating on buildings instead. try one time not to get every resource early on but conquer it later after your cities are developed enough to produce nice military force in few turns. try to not build ANY cities if it means that you would have a negative balance at 70% research rate but instead try to fix your income problem by building the proper commerce&gold buildings and look how the game play if you follow this one basic rule.

As I stated many times before I build EVERY building and wonder that helps with gold, same for every building that produces hammers, Health and Happiness. My Military usually is defensive in nature. So

try to fix your income problem by building the proper commerce&gold buildings and look how the game play if you follow this one basic rule.

is how I play the game. And I still don't like what's been done to buildings such as townclock, banks, universities (-3 hammers?!! what on earth for? universities in the USA Do Not cause negative production in the cities they reside in. In most cases they advance and promote greater productivity.), etc.

With the building Upgrade chain as it is now in AND 174 patch G it is a "chore" to play. After an hours play I get tired of Not building banks (even though I Need the Gold) because of the 2 unhappiness and other similar buildings that keep cities in a reduced productive state because of workers Not Working/angry. And I will repeat myself, I build Every building that promotes Health and Happiness.

I think that if there isn't some moderation soon that I will cease to use this portion of AND. Or go back to straight RoM. AND is Not that Fun anymore. And I am sadden at this turn of events.

JosEPh

 

[Afforess]

I'm actually leaning towards agreeing with Joseph II on some key issues here. I love the concept of upgrade chains, and felt it was a feature RoM never really used that well. I love some of the new building ideas, especially the earlier ones. But that's where my praise ends. I'm starting to wonder if AND 1.74 without the upgrade chains is actually more balanced than with it. I know 1.74 without it has a bit of a issue with over-production, but I think that could be fixed fairly easily. However, BuildingUpgradeChains still causes way too much gold to be earned... in fact, it puts a huge emphasis on buildings, and makes the tiles you work almost inconsequential. The static bonuses make any and every city a major gold city, and it's not hard to have even size 2 cities producing 16-18 net gold for your empire.

Perhaps the issue is that there are just too many buildings, especially once you hit the Renaissance and Modern eras. I get weary of seeing a list of 35 buildings I can build, each in less than 3 turns. I'd rather see 10-12 buildings, averaging 6-12 turns.

I think a consolidation of the Bazaar and Market lines is in order. Also, Trade Ports shouldn't give both extra trade routes, and gold, since a trade route is generally ~ 3 commerce each already. Also, instead of having the science and gold buildings produce negative hammers and happiness, why don't they just cost citizens to employ and staff them? Perhaps each requires one or two citizens to staff, who can't then act as specialists or workers for your tiles.

 

[Iceciro]

The idea of reducing citizens able to work tiles is brilliant - it's exceptional to staff Factories, Banks, Universites...

I have to admit I think the way he's gone about it is... a little bit counter-intuitive to the way civ works. Right now the most important resource for cities is that you have enough hammers to build all these buildings - that turns the city into a super city. Except banks, which I never build.

The idea that a Factory would let you (or require you) to assign a "Factory Worker" specialist that provides six hammers is better than just getting six hammers for balance.

It might also help if engineers weren't such utter crap. I can get two hammers PLUS commerce and food off a plains hill with a windmill.

 

[os79]

Afforess said, "...too many buildings..."

I definitely agree here. That's why I'm leaning toward removing Sports modcomp. Killtech and you can work toward better streamlining for other buildings here with better fine-tuning here. I definitely say, "Amen" here. However, understand the strengths of upgrade paths and milk it for all it's worth .

For the rest, let the discussion continue before I say anything else. That's why I'm very slightly disappointed about Killtech letting a certain modmodpack of buildings to pressure him. Killtech should stand up for what he believe in with a strong clarity, and along with Afforess and several others critical criticisms and analysis improve this modmod for AND .

 

[CiverDan]

I think the excess gold issue can be corrected by limiting buildings that provide base gold. i.e. force people to lower the science rate to get base gold as opposed to buildings.

 

[NBAfan]

I'm actually leaning towards agreeing with Joseph II on some key issues here. I love the concept of upgrade chains, and felt it was a feature RoM never really used that well. I love some of the new building ideas, especially the earlier ones. But that's where my praise ends. I'm starting to wonder if AND 1.74 without the upgrade chains is actually more balanced than with it. I know 1.74 without it has a bit of a issue with over-production, but I think that could be fixed fairly easily. However, BuildingUpgradeChains still causes way too much gold to be earned... in fact, it puts a huge emphasis on buildings, and makes the tiles you work almost inconsequential. The static bonuses make any and every city a major gold city, and it's not hard to have even size 2 cities producing 16-18 net gold for your empire.

Perhaps the issue is that there are just too many buildings, especially once you hit the Renaissance and Modern eras. I get weary of seeing a list of 35 buildings I can build, each in less than 3 turns. I'd rather see 10-12 buildings, averaging 6-12 turns.

I think a consolidation of the Bazaar and Market lines is in order. Also, Trade Ports shouldn't give both extra trade routes, and gold, since a trade route is generally ~ 3 commerce each already. Also, instead of having the science and gold buildings produce negative hammers and happiness, why don't they just cost citizens to employ and staff them? Perhaps each requires one or two citizens to staff, who can't then act as specialists or workers for your tiles.

This is what I have been thinking all this time. That is why I don't use the extra buildings.

 

[xartah]

So, a university could give either a bonus to scientist specialists or provide a bonus dependent on the amount of scientists?

 

[Iceciro]

So, a university could give either a bonus to scientist specialists or provide a bonus dependent on the amount of scientists?

...Man, that seems like the best awnser. Rather than require specialists to be used, buildings like Universities and Factories INCREASE THE WORTH of the specialists. Thus, as time goes on, an engineer becomes better and better, but a factory without engineers assigned just produces pollution in your cities.

 

[CiverDan]

My thoughts on the "Too Many Buildings" issue w/HAND in particular.

1. Too many early culture buildings that go obsolete very quickly. Fire Pit/Shrine/Dance Hut etc. Maybe get rid of a couple of these.

2. I personally find the "Domestic Animal" buildings that do not provide food to be rather worthless. Would rather build buildings that do not go obsolete instead if I need gold/culture etc. Only reason would be if I need happiness in a pinch (which is much more important I find in HAND than AND since the Market/grocer chain does not provide happiness).

 

[dudeSDCA]

I'm actually leaning towards agreeing with Joseph II on some key issues here. I love the concept of upgrade chains, and felt it was a feature RoM never really used that well. I love some of the new building ideas, especially the earlier ones. But that's where my praise ends. I'm starting to wonder if AND 1.74 without the upgrade chains is actually more balanced than with it. I know 1.74 without it has a bit of a issue with over-production, but I think that could be fixed fairly easily. However, BuildingUpgradeChains still causes way too much gold to be earned... in fact, it puts a huge emphasis on buildings, and makes the tiles you work almost inconsequential. The static bonuses make any and every city a major gold city, and it's not hard to have even size 2 cities producing 16-18 net gold for your empire.

Perhaps the issue is that there are just too many buildings, especially once you hit the Renaissance and Modern eras. I get weary of seeing a list of 35 buildings I can build, each in less than 3 turns. I'd rather see 10-12 buildings, averaging 6-12 turns.

I think a consolidation of the Bazaar and Market lines is in order. Also, Trade Ports shouldn't give both extra trade routes, and gold, since a trade route is generally ~ 3 commerce each already. Also, instead of having the science and gold buildings produce negative hammers and happiness, why don't they just cost citizens to employ and staff them? Perhaps each requires one or two citizens to staff, who can't then act as specialists or workers for your tiles.

AMEN!! In particular, this is why I had such issues with the way the science, trade, and religion upgrades were being developed--seemed like a like of bloat, and a lot of trade-offs with positive and negative modifiers that left me confused as to what I should do. The citizens approach is a great approach I'd be curious to see how it worked out.

I stopped building markets all together and focused on the plaza to get them in all cities (since there were so many other buildings to build with similar functions).

Manor seems redundant with treadmill cranes, construction firm, etc.

The university thing still bothers me. In Germany, Killtech's observation about the universities is spot on. But the American system is VERY different (and Universities in the US are generally associated with significant increases in research, production, labor, capital, etc.)

I'm also getting a lot of gold per turn. The maintenance fix in the latest patch helped out some. But Killtech converted a lot of different outputs from buildings in commerce, which means if I lower my sliders a bit, I can get LOTS of gold fast (Although I do LOVE the economy modmod, the inflation impact does cause me to think twice about hurrying tons of building projects, lol).

Glad others are seeing some of the concerns Joseph II and I have been mentioning (and glad Joseph II continued to voice his concerns!)