[Beyond the Sword] History In The Making

[DrewBledsoe]

Got France and De Gaulle as random Civ, spawned much to close to Israel, Otto and Persia, when I dow on Israel, Persia backstabs me, so they went too ...then Otto started posioning my cities (which is an act of war to me), so it was their turn for annihilation....later Russia (only other nation on continent) started building cities half way down the continent, and clashing with mine, so...well you can guess the rest..

Even when I rushed to feudalism to get them to vassal, they refused to (after levelling 10 of their cities no less), now its 575AD and Im 1% (pop wise) away from a domination victory

I'm still going to be filling this continent in the Industrial Age....

 

[Black Rose]

I have a few questions. Would it be possible to update the CivCore.dll file to support more than 24 civilizations? I have put a lot of modular civilizations into the game, and I think the limit of 24 is quite hampering. I hate civ-limits anyhow. The existing dll files out there that improve the limit doesn't work with this mod. With the previous version of HitM it worked pretty good with say, 34 civs. If this could be done I would be eternally grateful.

Also, I haven't found a modular version of the Sweden civilization that works with this mod. I'm trying to make a very big world map, and of course we must have Sweden in it... (have anyone considered to make IKEA a corporation in BtS? Can't think of a more world-spread company that specializes in furniture...)

And my final question: I found a few modular civs out there, but I'm thinking of Thailand and Rome (expanded version with more leaders) specifically. They have some error messages regarding the Jet_Fighter in the Civ4UnitArtStylesTypeInfos.xml file (both had the same error message). Both civs had their own unique version of the fighter jet plane. Furthermore, Thailand didn't appear over the list of civs. Any idea of what the problem here is? (Oh, to play against Rome with Caligula as leader)

Finally, some ideas for change:
* Pyramids do not give free walls. Instead, they could remove or reduce periods of
anarchy, enable free upkeep of certain civics, or trigger a golden age. I mean, free
walls is a very good thing, I just don't see that with Pyramids. Maybe allow all labour
civics?
* Put Natural Gas back in the game, and allow players to build gas plants to increase
productivity or gain power (obsolete with environmentalism), and the GazProm wonder
(perhaps more wonders or corporations?). Suggested Gazprom: +3 commerce or gold
from gas plants or surplus natural gas.
* Pearls. Please. They are so beautiful and shiny. (Why always happyness or health from
resources? Why not give certain buildings bonuses instead? For instance, pearls could
give market +10% gold bonus, total +35% gold, instead of happyness.)
* More religions maybe? Each civilization has its own "starting religion" that comes with
mysticism or polytheism, but it is countered by one of the modern civilizations. For
instance, when Christianity spreads to a city with Roman religion, the Roman religion
will eventually die out in that city after a brief period of unhappiness. Of course, one
or more of the bonuses from the religions we have today (culture, happiness) does
not exist with the ancient religions. Switching to a modern religion must be rewarding.
* Maybe add a further bonus varying from religion to religion, to further complement the
change above (Christianity + access to wine gives +1 extra happiness or +1 gold from
each christian building).
* Culturally different religions, to add diversity and realism to the world. But religions
must be rewarding. Islam has no access to the pig resource (but it can still be
traded?) but islamic buildings produce +1 gold (since Islam has a principle about giving
money to the poor), or they produce the health that the pig resource could have
given (game balance) -but only with Islam as the state religion.
* Something to boost diplomatic relations. Maybe reintroduce the diplomat unit. When
the diplomat enters a foreign capital, he may attempt to improve relations by +1.
Alternatively, the rival may forget something you refused to do -such as going to war
or cancel trade, but only a -1 penalty is forgotten.
* Sea fort for coastal cities. Reduces bombardment from ships. Upgrades to: Sea
Fortress (?) with gunpowder (?). A percentage chance to damage ships that bombard
the city (no more than typical collateral damage).
* Possibility to build a bridge that can span between two coastal tiles no more than 1
tile apart.
* Possibility to build a tunnel through a peak tile (requires workers to work on both sides
simultaneously?)
* Possibility to build airstrips as a tile improvement, to be used as base for planes (has
the same airplane limit as airport).
* Is it possible to have a certain type of water terrain? We have Coast and Ocean, but
maybe one thing in between would be good too? Like in Civ 3, there was Sea (if I
remember correctly). Then it would be possible to have some units be able to traverse
the Sea tiles and go to other continents (for example, the Caravel and Viking
Longboats, to mention some, could be made to traverse Sea tiles and be able to go to
other continents. This way, Vikings could be allowed to discover Iceland and
Greenland, and North-Eastern America (Canada) before tha age of galleons, and even
settle there. Alternatively, re-introduce the percentage chance from old civ games
that early boats may sink when not at a coast tile, but it is a small chance that they'll
make it from round to round, and then increase the Viking Longboat's odds for making
it on a round-to-round basis.

Maybe some of these ideas are not possible or interesting enough to implement, but I wanted to share some ideas with you. Appreciate your efforts guys, keep it up.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Got France and De Gaulle as random Civ, spawned much to close to Israel, Otto and Persia, when I dow on Israel, Persia backstabs me, so they went too ...then Otto started posioning my cities (which is an act of war to me), so it was their turn for annihilation....later Russia (only other nation on continent) started building cities half way down the continent, and clashing with mine, so...well you can guess the rest..

Even when I rushed to feudalism to get them to vassal, they refused to (after levelling 10 of their cities no less), now its 575AD and Im 1% (pop wise) away from a domination victory

I'm still going to be filling this continent in the Industrial Age....

They were asking for it...

Knowing you, somehow you'll complete the victory before you've completed the continent.... Industrial Age? How often do you play beyond it?

 

[DrewBledsoe]

They were asking for it...

Knowing you, somehow you'll complete the victory before you've completed the continent.... Industrial Age? How often do you play beyond it?

I play into Modern Age most of the time (when continuing a game that far, a lot I take as "The AI have all resigned before then )...can't win this one without Invading someone else, I've now filled the Continent at 1095AD, in my 3rd succesive Golden Age with the Mausoleum thats 72 successive turns of GA ...met the other ais -- most must have slogged it out since time immemorial--they are so backward, I'm handing out techs like candies just to get allies who might vote for me in something later on...and this is supposed to be Emperor..oh well, might continue (I quite like playing purely as the World Police)...

(and the forum refuses to upload my screenshot...baah)

 

[Rusty Edge]

Finally, some ideas for change:
* Pyramids do not give free walls. Instead, they could remove or reduce periods of
anarchy, enable free upkeep of certain civics, or trigger a golden age. I mean, free
walls is a very good thing, I just don't see that with Pyramids. Maybe allow all labour
civics?


* Sea fort for coastal cities. Reduces bombardment from ships. Upgrades to: Sea
Fortress (?) with gunpowder (?). A percentage chance to damage ships that bombard
the city (no more than typical collateral damage).
* Possibility to build a bridge that can span between two coastal tiles no more than 1
tile apart.
* Possibility to build a tunnel through a peak tile (requires workers to work on both sides
simultaneously?)
* Possibility to build airstrips as a tile improvement, to be used as base for planes (has
the same airplane limit as airport).
* Is it possible to have a certain type of water terrain? We have Coast and Ocean, but
maybe one thing in between would be good too? Like in Civ 3, there was Sea (if I
remember correctly). Then it would be possible to have some units be able to traverse
the Sea tiles and go to other continents (for example, the Caravel and Viking
Longboats, to mention some, could be made to traverse Sea tiles and be able to go to
other continents. This way, Vikings could be allowed to discover Iceland and
Greenland, and North-Eastern America (Canada) before tha age of galleons, and even
settle there. Alternatively, re-introduce the percentage chance from old civ games
that early boats may sink when not at a coast tile, but it is a small chance that they'll
make it from round to round, and then increase the Viking Longboat's odds for making
it on a round-to-round basis.

Maybe some of these ideas are not possible or interesting enough to implement, but I wanted to share some ideas with you. Appreciate your efforts guys, keep it up.

Pyramids- a wonder of organization as well as engineering. I can see the granary in each city thing as a reflection of that. I can see walls in each city as a byproduct of all of the masons and quarries needed to build pyramids.

Allowing all labor civics seems right at first, but the people who believe they were built by slaves will argue against the inclusion of emancipation. Others will say that any of the "libertarian "civics ( freedom of speech, universal suffrage, emancipation, etc. ) are over-powered in the early game because they penalize Civs without it- and building the pyramids in 1000BC would make everyone else suffer for millenia. Allowing all labor civics except emancipation might be right.

Sea Fortresses - The walls didn't protect the city, the guns did. A canon of the same size mounted atop a stone wall had greater range and accuracy that one on a ship. A fortress gun can fire at a higher elevation to drop the shot through the ship's deck, and possibly through the hull.The fortress guns often had furnaces for heating the iron shot until it glowed, so that it would set the sails and wood aflame. The fortress guns kept the ship's guns out of range.... It's a "best defense is a good offense" approach.

So maybe opportuity fire and collateral damage are the way to go here.

I've long wished for bridges and tunnels.

BTS forts can base planes the way you describe, it just doesn't look like an airbase.

The early transoceanic voyage is something I've used in CIV III and have long considered on these forums. If It's a % chance / turn a la CIV III, it simply becomes a numbers gamefor the human- risk enough ships, and one will make it. It gives a big advantage for trade, etc. to have the first contact with a new continent. Often a gamebreaker.

Certainly the voyages are historical. You mentioned the Vikings. The Polynesians are another. Probably there were some Africa-South America voyages as well. The trouble is that these trips didn't exactly establish trade routes. The intrepid seafarers were pretty much on their own without contact and support from the mother country for years at a time at best.

At the moment my thinking is that the best way to represent it in civ terms would be as a random event that could happen only once or so per game. A ship is lost at sea in a hurricane.

* May God have mercy on their souls ( do nothing )
* Search the Seas, leave no flotsam unturned!( - gold, nearest ship gets visibillity promo)
* We must find a way to prevent this from happening again... (- gold, get beakers towards astronomy)


There is a chance that the missing ship starts a settlement somewhere in the black fog, but we have no contact or maint whatsoever. We don't even know if we have it. It does not enter into our stats. We have to go look for it when we get caravels. If it has a second city by that time, we will discover our colony...

 

[Rusty Edge]

Good idea Chuggi(and Blue Marble shouldn't cause any problems, as its just changes map textures)...did you install the most current HITM patch? found here

If things work ok, you may wish to also install my patch that corrects and updates events found here

Congrats on being post #2000

 

[Rusty Edge]

I play into Modern Age most of the time (when continuing a game that far, a lot I take as "The AI have all resigned before then )...can't win this one without Invading someone else, I've now filled the Continent at 1095AD, in my 3rd succesive Golden Age with the Mausoleum thats 72 successive turns of GA ...met the other ais -- most must have slogged it out since time immemorial--they are so backward, I'm handing out techs like candies just to get allies who might vote for me in something later on...and this is supposed to be Emperor..oh well, might continue (I quite like playing purely as the World Police)...

(and the forum refuses to upload my screenshot...baah)

Sorry I didn't see this one before.

72 turns of Golden Age sounds like a record of some kind.

 

[Black Rose]

Pyramids- a wonder of organization as well as engineering. I can see the granary in each city thing as a reflection of that. I can see walls in each city as a byproduct of all of the masons and quarries needed to build pyramids.

Allowing all labor civics seems right at first, but the people who believe they were built by slaves will argue against the inclusion of emancipation. Others will say that any of the "libertarian "civics ( freedom of speech, universal suffrage, emancipation, etc. ) are over-powered in the early game because they penalize Civs without it- and building the pyramids in 1000BC would make everyone else suffer for millenia. Allowing all labor civics except emancipation might be right.

I see your point. Thank you for replying. Maybe trigger a golden age, or give a free engineer in all cities (or several free engineers in the relevant city?).

The early transoceanic voyage is something I've used in CIV III and have long considered on these forums. If It's a % chance / turn a la CIV III, it simply becomes a numbers gamefor the human- risk enough ships, and one will make it. It gives a big advantage for trade, etc. to have the first contact with a new continent. Often a gamebreaker.

You're right. I really liked your idea of a ship getting lost as a random event, with the possibility of discovering your descendants later on. For instance, if a Viking ship gets lost and forms their own colony somewhere, maybe that civ could also be a Viking civilization -but with another leaderhead. This would require more LHs for each civ of course. Then they could revolt against you, or become a vassal/colony? I really don't think they should assimilate into the parent civ again, if all contact was lost for generations.

BTS forts can base planes the way you describe, it just doesn't look like an airbase.

Oops, my bad. I forgot. But it'd look way cool with airstrips on the map though... I once had an idea for an improvement, a watchtower. It could be built by an army, like in real life, but it cost money and the unit spent its entire turn (or more turns) building it. The player who built the tower always had line of sight from the tower as if a unit was standing there. The watchtower could never be built more than 4 (or 5/6/7/8?) spaces away from your own cultural borders, and once it gets within any cultural borders it ceases to function. Of course, watchtowers could be pillaged for a minimal amount of gold.

But I wonder, is it possible to mod the DLL to allow more civs for HitM? This has been done for other mods, and for me this would be the most important change. I would like the possibility to add perhaps as many as 50 civs or more. Perhaps make different DLL versions that allows a variable max number of civs? Perhaps 34, 50 and 72 civ limits?

 

[Rusty Edge]

I see your point. Thank you for replying. Maybe trigger a golden age, or give a free engineer in all cities (or several free engineers in the relevant city?).


But I wonder, is it possible to mod the DLL to allow more civs for HitM? This has been done for other mods, and for me this would be the most important change. I would like the possibility to add perhaps as many as 50 civs or more. Perhaps make different DLL versions that allows a variable max number of civs? Perhaps 34, 50 and 72 civ limits?

I'm going away for a long weekend. I hope to resume our dialogue when I return.

Meanwhile, DrewBledsoe , could you please comment on the game balance issues of alternative effects for The Pyramids, and the technical feasebillity of adding more civs?

 

[Healz]

I think if you can do an edit you can actually make all forts appear as Airbases as they do after flight in Wolfshanze Mod. Not sure what you want though...

 

[Black Rose]

I think if you can do an edit you can actually make all forts appear as Airbases as they do after flight in Wolfshanze Mod. Not sure what you want though...

Hmm, dunno. I don't know if an airfield should have the same defensive purposes as a fort. Perhaps an airfield could have no defensive bonuses, but could hold +3 airplanes? Anyhow, good mod regardless of my many (ambitious) ideas. My many ideas for improvement must not be taken as lack of gratitude for your work. I really love this mod. (And the only improvement that would be important to me is adding more civs)

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I'm going away for a long weekend. I hope to resume our dialogue when I return.

Meanwhile, DrewBledsoe , could you please comment on the game balance issues of alternative effects for The Pyramids, and the technical feasebillity of adding more civs?

Have a good break ....

To Rusty and BlackRose in particular, and anyone else interested...

Adding more civs, I'm not sure how to do off the top of my head, probably best if I see how other have modded it and go from there...On a side note, to add extra Civs new to HITM, becomes quite complex. For instance every Civ not currently included in HITM, needs completely new info in many different fields, eg. leader heads (as in all their personal prefs etc.), 2 specific buildings, 2 specific units, masses of text descriptions and new graphics for all of their different period units (just for some examples)..its a heck of a lot of work for even one new civ...

The Pyramids adding city walls in all cities, is a throwback to CIv II. Having them add a granary in all new cities(throwback to Civ III), would maybe become a little too powerful... (maybe not though, as a city walls at present is also extremely powerful as I learned the other day fighting the Russians with the Pyramids....it takes 6 cats 3 full turns to bombard, in which time a lot of defenders can be added/whipped/rerouted to the target city...)...

Having the Pyramids enable all Labor Civics bar emancipation, hmmm...dunno as you'd very lightly have BW by then, so the Pyramids would only add a choice between Serfdom and Caste Sys, and Caste System isn't that far away with COL..

Giving free engineers with The Pyramids is a nice idea in principle, but I fear would again lead to a "super wonder" city, with the snowball effect of popping early engineers, discussed a few pages back in this thread, with relation to Mastabas.............here's a sample example (from say a marathon speed game)...
Lets say you Build The Pyramids in 1600BC (through chopping etc.). Now if they give 2 free engineers, plus the "natural" Grt Eng Pts, then only some 30 or so turns later, you pop a Grt Eng. Now lets say the Oracle is still uncompleted, so you rush the Oracle with your Grt Eng, and take construction, which gives you another Grt Eng, and you rush another wonder, etc.etc.

Starting a golden age, and giving a free engineer might just work, but this free eng would count double for that period, and a golden age (when you have probably few cities, concentrating on the Pyramids) isn't very meaningful that early on....

On a personal thought on The Pyramids (which I personally have studied quite a lot in RL), I'm still not sure what they were built for. If they are burial chambers/monuments, the builders did a fine job of leaving no clue for us (Egyptian burial practices normally left many hieroglypics, the Giza Pyramids contain none)..One think is absolutely sure, they were built with a precise knowledge of Mathematics and Astronomy....

So that's my early morning thoughts on the topic

 

[Arian]

Any progress to report on updating HitM to 3.17??

 

[Black Rose]

Adding more civs, I'm not sure how to do off the top of my head, probably best if I see how other have modded it and go from there...On a side note, to add extra Civs new to HITM, becomes quite complex. For instance every Civ not currently included in HITM, needs completely new info in many different fields, eg. leader heads (as in all their personal prefs etc.), 2 specific buildings, 2 specific units, masses of text descriptions and new graphics for all of their different period units (just for some examples)..its a heck of a lot of work for even one new civ...

Oh no, god no. What I meant was increasing the civ limit so one could play with more civs than 24, say 34 or 50 civs at a time. I have little problem using civs from CivGold in HitM (and other modular ones), though they could (and preferably should) be adjusted with another UU and UB. And some of the diplomacy text is missing. This is XML modding only, and with time I'll figure out how to improve on that myself (if nobody does this before me that is). When I eventually improve upon these civs I will gladly upload them and share them with the rest of you guys (and place links in this thread). NOTE: It will take some time, because I know little about modding. Preferably someone more competent than myself would do it before I could learn to mod XML files. (But eventually I will get along to do it if noone else has)...

On a personal thought on The Pyramids (which I personally have studied quite a lot in RL), I'm still not sure what they were built for. If they are burial chambers/monuments, the builders did a fine job of leaving no clue for us (Egyptian burial practices normally left many hieroglypics, the Giza Pyramids contain none)..One think is absolutely sure, they were built with a precise knowledge of Mathematics and Astronomy....

Yep, that's true. Hmm, one could receive a free engineer, and reduce the GP points to +1 per turn? I have many other ideas to how the pyramids could work in game terms, but it would never be possible to include in Civ4 -too ambitious.

So that's my early morning thoughts on the topic

Never make important decisions on an empty stomach. Eat breakfast first

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Oh no, god no. What I meant was increasing the civ limit so one could play with more civs than 24, say 34 or 50 civs at a time. I have little problem using civs from CivGold in HitM (and other modular ones), though they could (and preferably should) be adjusted with another UU and UB. And some of the diplomacy text is missing. This is XML modding only, and with time I'll figure out how to improve on that myself (if nobody does this before me that is). When I eventually improve upon these civs I will gladly upload them and share them with the rest of you guys (and place links in this thread). NOTE: It will take some time, because I know little about modding. Preferably someone more competent than myself would do it before I could learn to mod XML files. (But eventually I will get along to do it if noone else has)...

To make a new .dll allowing more Civs, you really only need to change one file, CvDefines.h (this controls maximum allowed Civs). Unfortunately, this is compiled within Grave's original .dll and I haven't access to his original uncompiled files...

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Sorry I didn't see this one before.

72 turns of Golden Age sounds like a record of some kind.

Now the forum is accepting screenshots again.........

Crazy game as I said, not many turn out that decisive so early on......and the bottom 4 guys can be as as they like, they ain't coming back

 

[Black Rose]

To make a new .dll allowing more Civs, you really only need to change one file, CvDefines.h (this controls maximum allowed Civs). Unfortunately, this is compiled within Grave's original .dll and I haven't access to his original uncompiled files...

Ok, we'll wait for Grave. I think allowing more civs at a time would be a great complement to this fine mod, and would make many people (myself included) extremely happy...

Crazy game as I said, not many turn out that decisive so early on......and the bottom 4 guys can be as as they like, they ain't coming back

Nice one. Touchè.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Any progress to report on updating HitM to 3.17??

I'd say the most significant advance is that Dale's Combat Mod is now 3.17 compatible. So that's another component to check off the list.

I guess that I'd call that another qualifying condition being met for updating, as opposed to actual progress being made, but it's something.

 

[Arian]

I'd say the most significant advance is that Dale's Combat Mod is now 3.17 compatible. So that's another component to check off the list.

I guess that I'd call that another qualifying condition being met for updating, as opposed to actual progress being made, but it's something.

I hope you had a nice weekend!

HitM has a couple of ModComps in it, made by Grave which are no longer available. I suppose these are needed to and upgraded to 3.17.

These modcomps are in HitM (see first post):

Actual Quotes by Willowmund - I have it, XML-work, shouldn't be a problem
Alternate Traits v2 by Munch - I have it, XML-work, shouldn't be a problem
Better Espionage Screen by Theo - I have it, Python
Bhruic's Unofficial BtS v3.13 Patch - 3.17
Bhruic's Supplement to Unofficial BtS v3.13 Patch - 3.17
BloodUI by snipperrabbit - we can do without
Building Heal Rate by Grave - don't have it
BUG MOD by the Bug Mod Team - I think it's still at 3.13, not sure
Civilization Specific Great People by Gauis Octavius - still at 3.13
Convert Production to Espionage by Jon Deane - I have it, XML-work, shouldn't be a problem
Dale's Combat Mod by Dale - 3.17
Enhanced Tech Conquest by Grave, Jeckel - don't have it
Ethnic Art Styles by GeoModder - 3.17
Expanded City Radius by Mylon - not in HitM
Extra Pillage by Dom Pedro II - don't have it, I've asked Dom Pedro to reupload it and whether it's compatible with 3.17
Flavored Civics by Grave - I have it , 3.13
Influence Driven War by Moctezuma - still at 3.13
JKP1187's Events by JKP1187 - XML-work, shouldn't be a problem
JUnitReligion by Jeckel - I have it but Warlords-compatible ???
King David Leaderhead by Esnazs - XML-work, shouldn't be a problem
Perfect World map script by Cephalo - we can do without, probably compatible with 3.17
Pirates Mod by Grave - don't have it
Route Pillage Mod by Grave - don't have it
Secret Technology by Grave - I have modcomp (3.13)
Sepia UI by Toft - we can do without
Silver/Gray UI by Dutchking - we can do without
Terra 2 map script by JKP1187 - we can do without
The Atomic Bomb Mod by Grave - don't have
The Republic of Texas by Grave - XML-work, shouldn't be a problem
Turquoise UI by Dutchking - we can do without
Unit Statistics by Teg Navanis - 3.17
Via Appia by Gir - I have it, XML-work, shouldn't be a problem
Wide CityBar by AsioAsioAsio - I have it
Inquisitor by bmarnz - don't have it

This is about it.

 

[HaloTru7h]

Any chance of Revolution mod being included into the 3.17 build? With the REV-DCM combo fully available for 3.17, I don't see why not. It's setup so it can be turned on and off via pre-game settings.