[Beyond the Sword] History In The Making

I've played a couple of games with this mod and really enjoyed it, but I have to wonder - are special forces units too powerful? Against the computer I was able to seriously damage enemy civs in the modern era by building huge special forces armies to go into enemy territory, pillage every single improvement and road and then organize powerful attack stacks. The AI never seemed to be able to find my units and they didn't seem to every build any special forces of their own. Seemed too easy.
 
I've played a couple of games with this mod and really enjoyed it, but I have to wonder - are special forces units too powerful? Against the computer I was able to seriously damage enemy civs in the modern era by building huge special forces armies to go into enemy territory, pillage every single improvement and road and then organize powerful attack stacks. The AI never seemed to be able to find my units and they didn't seem to every build any special forces of their own. Seemed too easy.

I agree. I am playing with Germans on the world map and have just managed to wage a successful war against 3 powerful enemies at the same time thanks to the Special Forces units. AI haven't built any SF units yet even though it has the technology.
 
I usually play with a sense of proportion, and keep my special force teams fewer than my marines or paratroopers, figuring they are elite troops taken from these ranks.

Maybe the simple answer is that there needs to be a limit on how many you can have at one time, like we have on inquisitors and missionaries.
 
I've played a couple of games with this mod and really enjoyed it, but I have to wonder - are special forces units too powerful? Against the computer I was able to seriously damage enemy civs in the modern era by building huge special forces armies to go into enemy territory, pillage every single improvement and road and then organize powerful attack stacks. The AI never seemed to be able to find my units and they didn't seem to every build any special forces of their own. Seemed too easy.

I agree. I am playing with Germans on the world map and have just managed to wage a successful war against 3 powerful enemies at the same time thanks to the Special Forces units. AI haven't built any SF units yet even though it has the technology.

I usually play with a sense of proportion, and keep my special force teams fewer than my marines or paratroopers, figuring they are elite troops taken from these ranks.

Maybe the simple answer is that there needs to be a limit on how many you can have at one time, like we have on inquisitors and missionaries.

I never get that far into the game :mischief:, but

This is easy to do:- The file is:- CIV4UnitSchema.xml

For a Christian Missionary (for example)this bit applies:-

<UnitClassInfo>
<Type>UNITCLASS_CHRISTIAN_MISSIONARY</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_UNIT_CHRISTIAN_MISSIONARY</Description>
<iMaxGlobalInstances>-1</iMaxGlobalInstances>
<iMaxTeamInstances>-1</iMaxTeamInstances>
<iMaxPlayerInstances>3</iMaxPlayerInstances>
<iInstanceCostModifier>0</iInstanceCostModifier>
<DefaultUnit>UNIT_CHRISTIAN_MISSIONARY</DefaultUnit>
</UnitClassInfo>

Lower down in the same file is Grave's addition for Special Forces:-

<UnitClassInfo>
<Type>UNITCLASS_SPECIAL_FORCES</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_UNIT_SPECIAL_FORCES</Description>
<iMaxGlobalInstances>-1</iMaxGlobalInstances>
<iMaxTeamInstances>-1</iMaxTeamInstances>
<iMaxPlayerInstances>-1</iMaxPlayerInstances>
<iInstanceCostModifier>0</iInstanceCostModifier>
<DefaultUnit>UNIT_SPECIAL_FORCES</DefaultUnit>
</UnitClassInfo>

You'd just need to change <iMaxPlayerInstances>-1</iMaxPlayerInstances> to some sensible positive number.....no idea what would be suitable though, depends how many you think enough;)...(My Blue highlighting of course)

Anyways, thats's how to do it..
 
Thanks for the very helpful infor DrewBledsoe, will definately try that. I think 15 would be a good number for SF units.
 
. . . The file is:- CIV4UnitSchema.xml

For a Christian Missionary (for example)this bit applies:-

<UnitClassInfo>
<Type>UNITCLASS_CHRISTIAN_MISSIONARY</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_UNIT_CHRISTIAN_MISSIONARY</Description>
<iMaxGlobalInstances>-1</iMaxGlobalInstances>
<iMaxTeamInstances>-1</iMaxTeamInstances> . . .

Hey Drew, I looked in CIV4UnitSchema, and I think what you meant was:

Programs/Firaxis../Sid_M_Civ4/BTS/Mods/HiTM/Assets/XML/Units/Civ4UnitClassInfos

Related to this, in the

Programs/Firaxis../Sid_M_Civ4/BTS/Mods/HiTM/Assets/XML/Units/Civ4UnitInfos file

I changed AIRSHIP to require both Physics, AND Steel, AND Railroad:

<PrereqTech>TECH_PHYSICS</PrereqTech>
<TechTypes>
<PrereqTech>TECH_STEEL</PrereqTech>
<PrereqTech>TECH_RAILROAD</PrereqTech>
</TechTypes>

Airship now shows the icons for Physics, Steel and Railroad as being required, but . . . in my game as Germany, the Zeppelin is still showing up as coming with Physics only.

I've looked around in several of the XML files for any reference to the Zeppelin unit but cannot find it. Obviously it must be in here somewhere cause it is showing up in my Unit build windows in game! :confused:
 
I love this mod because it gives me more of everything.:goodjob:

I enjoy the scaling change to CR units, so that the siege towers are about twice the height of a man instead of knee-high to one.

I particularly enjoy the new Siege tower unit, adding depth to medieval siege-
( 5 strength+100% city attack bonus, no ranged bombardment or withdrawal chance and can't capture cities ... it's a death match with the best defender)
The A.I. uses them but not more than one or two at a time. Like a treb, it's vulnerable in the field.

I have accuracy trebs for reducing walls and defenses from a distance, cats for collateral damage in the field or in a siege, and my stack usually carries about 4 siege towers to circumvent the defenses and take on the toughest defenders, usually using two and leaving them behind to heal if I keep the city, moving the other pair forward to the next siege.

Even though siege became more complex in the Napoleonic wars with earthworks around the castles, breaching batteries and so forth, in the game all three siege engines upgrade to canon. It's kind of disapointing. I miss having the different promotion lines look different.


Now I like the idea behind the change to the tech tree , where canon arrive before muskets and firearms is a seperate tech, because that's truer to western history....


However, it still seems out of whack somehow. There are tools available.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182956&highlight=mortar


I think I'd like to see the bombard replace the treb and it's wall-buster role with Gunpowder, with the same kind of big city attack bonus with a bigger base strength and either a higher accuracy on ranged bombardment or a higher defense reduction/turn.
Maybe a reduced withdrawal chance to simulate a risk of exploding.

I think I'd like to see that familiar CIV IV catapult-replacing spoke wheel cannon arrive with Chemistry( isn't that when we get frigates and privateers armed with canon?) , because I assume it's meant to reflect improvements in gunpowder. That fills the direct-fire/field artillery role.

I'd like to see the my pet siege towers replaced by mortars either with Chemistry or Military Science ( isn't that the one which gives us Grenadiers and Ships of the Line ? A mortar is a sort of big grenade launcher) . Same clumsy in the field, no ranged bombardment, but circumvent the wall & earthwork concept. I'd like to see it strong enough to take out a rifleman in a city with the same amount of promotions.
Perhaps it should negate the hill bonus, because elevation is a non-issue for mortars.

They would all become obsolete and upgrade to artillery.


What are your thoughts and impressions?
 
Hey Rusty Edge, it is a complex period and a delicate process to achieve a good balance b/w game play and reality :)

Based on my modicum of knowledge about guns and warfare in the period: Renaissance-to-early industrial, I do agree that a few tweaks could improve things. What you are suggesting about having the three different siege units continue into diversified roles as they evolve seems reasonable. Frankly though, I still do not have it all figured out!

So what you are basically saying is: at present, catas, siege-towers, and trebuchets all upgrade to cannons with gunpowder, and that that is too open ended? What would be better is if there were different units appearing with different Renaissance-to-Industrial era techs that represented different diversification of siege and field artillery technology?

I have played the Ancient-Classical-Medieval periods enough to say: I think the units for those eras are pretty close to perfect balance. But I agree the late Renaissance to Industrial feels a bit homogeneous. I kinda feel like: I get Gunpowder, I upgrade all my siege weapons to cannons, I win, i.e., having all of them upgrade to cannon is a bit too powerful a ploy for the human, and the AI does not seem to deal with it as well.

The other thing that I kinda don't like is the dynamic betwen muskets-grenadiers-rifles. I like that muskets come after cannon, which as you say, more accurately reflects the role that gunpowder played in medieval Euro history first as a source of massive siege weapons and only later and progressively as a hand-held anti-personnel weapon.

ADDIT: I don't totally understand the exact role that the first arquebuisier played. My limited understanding is that, they were very clumsy, dangerous (risk of explosion) BUT good as shock anti-personnel weapons, but vulnerable to knights? Thus, the first "firearms" unit "Arquebusier" really need pikes to defend them from knights/cuiraissiers?

By the end of the Renaissance (circa 1750??) I think hand-held weapons should be becoming increasingly obsolete by improved muskets: meaning better/lighter stocks and barrels, better firing mechanisms (flintlocks instead of matchlocks, etc.), better powder, better ammo. BUT, because they "second stage" of firearms were still fairly short-range, slow to load-fire, inaccurate, and relatively unreliable muskets should still be vulnerable to hordes of melee if they are allowed to get close in. Not sure how that should work in game mechanics, but basically this could be the current "Musketman" unit but perhaps with some slight changes?

Again, my non-expert sense of the next five major developments: (i) minie ball technology which improved the load/fire rates for muskets; (ii) rifling which improved accuracy for muskets; (iii) breach loading which should correspond to "Rifleman;" (iv) improved metallurgy / gunsmithing, which allowed carbines, and better rifling = lighter guns, more accurate and longer range guns corresponding to "Cavalry" unit; (v) something like "telescopic sights + precision breach mechanisms + copper-jacketed bullet" which corresponds to late 19th century / WWI era long-range, high accuracy rifles like the Lee-Enfield, the Springfield, etc. = "Infantry"
 
Hey Rusty Edge, it is a complex period and a delicate process to achieve a good balance b/w game play and reality :)



So what you are basically saying is: at present, catas, siege-towers, and trebuchets all upgrade to cannons with gunpowder, and that that is too open ended? What would be better is if there were different units appearing with different Renaissance-to-Industrial era techs that represented different diversification of siege and field artillery technology?

I have played the Ancient-Classical-Medieval periods enough to say: I think the units for those eras are pretty close to perfect balance. But I agree the late Renaissance to Industrial feels a bit homogeneous. I kinda feel like: I get Gunpowder, I upgrade all my siege weapons to cannons, I win, i.e., having all of them upgrade to cannon is a bit too powerful a ploy for the human, and the AI does not seem to deal with it as well.

Pretty much. I'm not as certain about the specs and techs that each should have as much as I'd like to see the roles of each type preserved and extended to the next era. Cannon before shoulder arms, but they should be big vulnerable wall-busters, not field artillery.

Armsmen with strength twelve spoked-wheel canon seems wrong. An armsman/ pike/ musketman/ knight / bombard / siege tower /catapult stack would look better to me. (Yeah I know, as gunpowder and firearms came into play , siege towers were replaced by siege ladders, trading strength for speed, and bombards came to be replaced by naval caliber cannon in time .... I wasn't looking for that much realism at this point).

Using mortars against riflemen in cities would look better to me , too.
 
The other thing that I kinda don't like is the dynamic betwen muskets-grenadiers-rifles. I like that muskets come after cannon, which as you say, more accurately reflects the role that gunpowder played in medieval Euro history first as a source of massive siege weapons and only later and progressively as a hand-held anti-personnel weapon.

ADDIT: I don't totally understand the exact role that the first arquebuisier played. My limited understanding is that, they were very clumsy, dangerous (risk of explosion) BUT good as shock anti-personnel weapons, but vulnerable to knights? Thus, the first "firearms" unit "Arquebusier" really need pikes to defend them from knights/cuiraissiers?

By the end of the Renaissance (circa 1750??) I think hand-held weapons should be becoming increasingly obsolete by improved muskets: meaning better/lighter stocks and barrels, better firing mechanisms (flintlocks instead of matchlocks, etc.), better powder, better ammo. BUT, because they "second stage" of firearms were still fairly short-range, slow to load-fire, inaccurate, and relatively unreliable muskets should still be vulnerable to hordes of melee if they are allowed to get close in. Not sure how that should work in game mechanics, but basically this could be the current "Musketman" unit but perhaps with some slight changes?

I think the Arquebusiers were invented to penetrate armor &/or knock men in armor down ( that's as good as knocking him off a horse with a lance he's out of action until the battle is over). The touble is they were heavy to carry ( think the weight of a machine gun)and so clumsy and slow to re-load, aim and fire that it was a better castle parapet defense weapon than a field weapon. In the field it needed protection from mounted & melee units much like a catapult crew would because of the slow rate of fire.... I think. Saw them in a german castle museums, and I barely read the language on the descriptions. :confused:

I agree there's a musket gap. I think of our musketman as a "matchlock" with a lighter musket than an ark, and I think there needs to be a "flintlock" to replace him... Most flintlocks had bayonets, so they doubled as pikemen.
Most of the deaths in the American Revolution were attributed to bayonet wounds.

Sometimes I think of the Grenadiers playing this part . The grenadiers were chosen from the ranks based on arm strength,but later they retained their role as shock troops and city raiders, but they were issued muskets with bayonets.

Muskets could form a square - a four sided fence of bayonets to keep mounted units out of sabre range... then it became a musket vs. pistol fight, and it's hard to reload a pistol on horseback. Of course whenever they formed a square they became a perfct artillery target...

So the simplified Napoleonic rock /paper /scissors is horse beats cannon, cannon beats musket, musket beats horse.... Or more accurately combine two and beat the third... odd man out.


I'm not sure what needs to be done on this missing musket question in Civ terms, but I agree there's a problem.
 
So we've raised two issues: (a) the late Renaissance-early Industrial siege homgenization; and (b) the "musket gap." I cannot help but wonder if the easiest way to address both would be to simply change what promotions what units could gain based on what Techs were known?

Some tentative ideas:

Catapults, Str 5 Mv 1 cost 100 requires Math & Masonry Techs (inherent special abilities same as in current HiTM). Initially eligible for Combat I, Drill I, City Raider I, Free Upgrade. Upgrades to Cannon with Military Science.
Made eligible for Combat II, & III by Guilds Tech (better training and command & control)
Made eligible for Shock I-III and Cover I-III by Firearms Tech. (use of early Arquebusier support)
Made eligible for City Raider II, and Combat IV by Engineering Tech. (better siege engineering)
Never eligible for City Raider III or IV, Medic or March promotions, Barrage I-III, Accuracy I & II, nor Arctic or Desert, Garrison, Geurilla, Commando, Fieldsman, nor Defence Promotions.

Trebuchets, Str 4 Mv 1 cost 160 (inherent special abilities same as in current HiTM) requires Machinery Tech. Initially eligible for Combat I, City Raider I, Barrage I, Free Upgrade. Upgrades to atillery with Artillery Tech.
Made eligible for Combat II, & III, Barrage I & II by Engineering Tech. (better siege engineering)
Made eligible for Accuracy I, & II by Optics Tech. (better surveying, trigonometry, etc.)
Made eligible for Combat IV, and City Raider I-IV by Military Tradition Tech. (better officer corps, training, and combined arms tactical coordination)
Never eligible for any of the Medic or March promotions, nor Ambush promotions, nor Arctic or Desert, Garrison, Geurilla, Commando, Fieldsman, nor Defence Promotions.

Siege Towers, Str 5 Mv 1 cost 130 requires Construction Tech (inherent special abilities same as in current HiTM). Upgrades to Cannon with Gunpowder Tech. Inititally eligible for Combat I & II and City Raider I-II, & Free Upgrade.
Made eligible for combat III by Gunpowder Tech. (use of explosives and semi-hand-held muzzle-loaders)
Made eligible for Shock and Cover, & Drill I & II by Military Tradition Tech. (better officer corps, training, and combined arms tactical coordination)
Made eligible for City Raider III and IV by Chemistry Tech. (better powder, better supply storage and distribution, better ammo)
Never eligible for Combat IV, nor for Drill III or IV, nor for any of the Pinch, Formation, Commando, Geurilla, Fieldsman, Garrison, Defence, Desert, Arctic, Amphibious, or Ambush promotions

Cannon Str 12, Mv 1, cost 200, requires Gunpowder Tech (inherent special abilities same). Upgrades to Artillery with Artillery Tech. Initially eligible for Combat I, II, & III< and City Raider I, and II, and Free Upgrade.
Made eligible for Shock and Cover, & Drill I & II by Military Tradition Tech. (organizational innovations in training, strategy and tactics that increase field anti-personnel effectiveness)
Made eligibile for Combat IV, Pinch and Formation by Military Science Tech. (improved tactics against muskets and mounted)
Made eligible for City Raider III and IV by Chemistry Tech. (better powder, better supply storage and distribution, better ammo)
Made eligible for Defence I through IV by Replaceable Parts. (use of cannons in combination with earthworks, interlocking fields of fire, quick entrenchement, and field formations)
Made eligible for March and Drill IV by Railroads (better logistics = quicker replenishment of effectives where they are needed, faster transport capacities promoted [through necessity and opportunity] theatre and operational level organization)
Made eligible for Accuracy I & II and Barrage I thru III by Steel Tech (better rifling, better mechanisms).
Never eligible for Desert, Arctic, Amphibious or Ambush.

Artillery identical to the current settings.

Musketman, Str 9, Mv 1 cost 160 requires Firearms Tech. Initially eligible for Combat I, Formation I, Fieldsman I, Garrison I-IV, Drill I & II, and Defence I & II. Upgrades to Infantry with Assembly Line and Rifling.
Made eligible for Combat II & III, Shock I-III and Cover I-III and Formation II & III, and City Raider I & II by Military Tradition Tech. (early mistakes in gun design, and tactical deployment improving, potential effectivenss of massed gun formations against the push of pikes coming to fruition)
Made eligible for Combat IV, Pinch, Fieldsman II,and City Raider III by Military Science Tech (Flint locks with bayonets combined with better training and tactics)
Made eligible for Drill III & IV and City Raider IV by Chemistry Tech. (smokeless powder, lighter stocks minie ball compound bullet types of developments)
Made eligible for Defence III and IV by Replaceable Parts (better equipment repair and maintenance)
Made eligible for March and Medic I & II by Railroads (better logistics = quicker replenishment of effectives where they are needed)
Never eligible for Desert, Arctic, or Amphibious or Ambush.

Grenadier, Str 12, Mv 1, cost 200, +50% attack vs. Rifleman. Requires Military Science Tech. Initially eligible for Combat I & II, Shock I-III and Cover I-III, Formation I & II, Drill I & II, Fieldsman I & II & Defence I & II.
Made eligible for Drill III and City Raider I by Replaceable Parts (improved coordination of combined arms [grenades, breech-loaders with bayonets, various battalion integrated artillery such as small cannon using grapes shot], as well as better ammo, better powder, etc.)
Made eligible for Pinch I and II, Fieldsman II, City Raider II and III and Formation III & IV by Chemistry (improved coordination of combined arms and improved realization of tactical use of combined arms against varoius types of opposing formations/units, particularly older "musket" units)
Made eligible for Defence III and IV by Biology (kind of a filler . . . better food and medical care for the troops!?)
Made eligible for Combat III, March, Pinch III and City Raider IV by Railroads (better logistics, and better ability to create optimum concentrations of combined arms)
Made eligible for Garrison I & II, Geurilla I-II, and Drill III by Nationalism (ideological shifts facilitating different recruitment and training regimens, and totally novel forms of deployment)
Made eligible for Desert Combat I-II, Arctic Combat I-II, Woodsman I-III by Medicine (better food, better logistics and supply distribution, better medical care)
Made eligible for Garrison III, & IV, Geurilla III, and Drill IV and Commando by Fascism (similar to Nationalism, ideological shifts creating new ideas about how a military can and should operate).
Never eligible for ambush or amphibious.

Rifleman Str 14, Mv 1 cost 20 +25% vs mounted. Requires rifling. Initially eligible for Combat I & II, City Raider I, Shock I-III, Cover I-III, Formation I, Drill I, Fieldsman I, and Defence I.
Made eligible for Pinch I, City Raider II, Fieldsman II, and Formation II by Chemistry (better rifling and breech-loading mechanisms)
Made eligible for Defence II, Drill II, and Fieldsman II by Biology. (better food and medical care)
Made eligible for Combat III, City Raider II, March, Pinch II by Railroads. (bolt action and better repeating rifles)
Made eligible for Garrison I-II, Geurilla I-II, and Drill III by Nationalism. (compound bullets, as well as the above noted ideological factors)
Made eligible for Desert Combat I-II, Arctic Combat I-II, Woodsman I-III by Medicine. (better food, better logistics and supply distribution, better medical care)
Made eligible for Garrison IV, Geurilla III, Drill IV by Artillery.
Made eligible for Garrison III, and Commando by Fascism. (similar to Nationalism, ideological shifts creating new ideas about how a military can and should operate).
Made eligible for amphibious by Refining. (carbines and water-resistant cartridges and mechanisms, as well as better landing craft?)
Never eligible for ambush. Only "infantry" should be able to incorporate anti-tank.
 
Should later units get selected free promotion(s) per unit type by technology? This without giving extra experience points, just giving the promotions to show some advancement in technology has occurred and so making new units to be more effective than those that were built earlier.

Also, should Pinch I become available for all Civilizations for melee & archery units when anyone discovers Rifling? Just to give some fighting chance for outdated units / Civs slow in tech advances when those rifles start pushing in. This would reflect a change in tactics, because wouldn't you over time change how you fight if you knew the other guy has far better weapons?
 
Hey Drew, I looked in CIV4UnitSchema, and I think what you meant was:

Programs/Firaxis../Sid_M_Civ4/BTS/Mods/HiTM/Assets/XML/Units/Civ4UnitClassInfos
You're completely right here, I typed the wrong file somehow....(doh!), the info is right though.
Related to this, in the

Programs/Firaxis../Sid_M_Civ4/BTS/Mods/HiTM/Assets/XML/Units/Civ4UnitInfos file

I changed AIRSHIP to require both Physics, AND Steel, AND Railroad:

<PrereqTech>TECH_PHYSICS</PrereqTech>
<TechTypes>
<PrereqTech>TECH_STEEL</PrereqTech>
<PrereqTech>TECH_RAILROAD</PrereqTech>
</TechTypes>

Airship now shows the icons for Physics, Steel and Railroad as being required, but . . . in my game as Germany, the Zeppelin is still showing up as coming with Physics only.

I've looked around in several of the XML files for any reference to the Zeppelin unit but cannot find it. Obviously it must be in here somewhere cause it is showing up in my Unit build windows in game! :confused:
Thant sounds like a good idea to me, puts them in the right "time frame"...

Hopefully you should have a MODULES folder within assets, the 2nd UU (Zeppelin etc.) and UB are in there....my path is C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\HISTORY IN THE MAKING\Assets\MODULES\HiTM Additional Unique Content\HiTM Additional Unique Content_CIV4UnitInfos.xml
 
arquebuisiers can not be represented in CIV principially because of it's combat mechanics.
this soldiers were used to fire a single volley towards charging cavalry, inflicting sizeable casualities and frightening horses, and then to retreat after pikemen backs. They could be represented if there were first strike ability, as it realized in civ3. They could weaken attackers before they entered combat.
Another point of using arquebuisiers is that they can be trained MUCH faster than archers or arbalesters, thus they must cost (considering production of equipment) 40-50 hammers (for marathon), not more. And at same time arrows were very bad against renaissance cavalry armor.
 
Should later units get selected free promotion(s) per unit type by technology? This without giving extra experience points, just giving the promotions to show some advancement in technology has occurred and so making new units to be more effective than those that were built earlier.

Also, should Pinch I become available for all Civilizations for melee & archery units when anyone discovers Rifling? Just to give some fighting chance for outdated units / Civs slow in tech advances when those rifles start pushing in. This would reflect a change in tactics, because wouldn't you over time change how you fight if you knew the other guy has far better weapons?

The Pinch I eligibility for melee and archery seems like a good game-balance issue, but I'm not sure how to justify it in terms of realism. Would it represent the mixing in of some muzzle-loader platoons with the melee and archery?

As for the auto upgrades: it is an interesting idea. I'd be concerned about them getting a whole bunch of the "eligible" promotions but maybe some of the ones that will accentuate their effectiveness against old units. For example, one might consider that all Muskets built after Military Tradition is built automatically get Shock I and Cover I. Again though I'm worried about how it would effect game balance. Not sure . . .

Indeed, I'm not sure how ANY of the proposed ideas I posted above would effect game balance! :eek: That is a LOT of changes I've proposed, and it might not even be feasible in terms of how the promotions and coding work. In any event, it would definitely be a major amount of work to change the code.

So go ahead and tear into it guys! I've got a thick skin; I'm not wed to any of those ideas, just trying to get some ideas out there for how the putative (a) siege homogenization and (b) musket gap issues in the late Renaissance early Industrial MIGHT be most easily addressed without creating new units and Techs.

Indeed, for that matter, Rusty Edge and I might be off base to suggest that there is any problem (a) and (b) at all.

ADDIT: Drew, thanks for the info on the Zeppelin code! :)
 
arquebuisiers can not be represented in CIV principially because of it's combat mechanics.
this soldiers were used to fire a single volley towards charging cavalry, inflicting sizeable casualities and frightening horses, and then to retreat after pikemen backs. They could be represented if there were first strike ability, as it realized in civ3. They could weaken attackers before they entered combat.
Another point of using arquebuisiers is that they can be trained MUCH faster than archers or arbalesters, thus they must cost (considering production of equipment) 40-50 hammers (for marathon), not more. And at same time arrows were very bad against renaissance cavalry armor.

Interesting. That is what I remember learning too: that the first application of firearms in European warfare was as a counter to heavily armored knights. But then I think I've got confused by the Civ games into thinking that their early use was against massed infantry (pikes, maces in game). So instead of catapults getting

Made eligible for Shock I-III and Cover I-III by Firearms Tech. (use of early Arquebusier support)

Maybe it should be "made eligible for Formation I-II or something?
 
Anthropoid,
of cource they must be anti-knight units, maybe give tem +X vs knight...
but as i mentioned above, arqibusiers cant be represented properly (if we do not want to edit combat mechanics code). The problem is that them were not used separately from pikemen. Only solution i can suggest is to create a [pikemen+arquebusier] unit, that will have +1 first strike, and say +25% vs knights.
 
There's a lot to digest in Anthropoid's proposals.. . Lately I've considered making aluminum a requirement for them ( you need to build a frame to make an airship).
But his way works.
 
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