Bhall...

[MISER SVM]

Hello everyone, this is just a general post, not necessarily discussing gameplay. I have always been wondering why Bhall is a bit under-represented in-game. IMHO, she's one of the most interesting and distinguished gods, hands down, though I'm of course no expert of Erebus' mythology. As soon as the Clan converts to one of the great faiths, it seems as if the ties between Jonas and his ill-tempered mistress are gone for good (except for the fire man, of course). I really like playing the CoE, as they're a very unique civ- I have always imagined a fire-themed religion based on the barbarians and the Clan besides the Runes and the Fellowship.

It has also been hinted that Bhall has not totally succumbed to evil, as she spared her arch-angel who chose to remain in Heaven. Now, a kind of "redemption of Bhall" theme could be very interesting (I think it has been suggested before, when Clan leaders still had the Scorched Earth trait)...
ANother option- you may influence Bhall to leave Agares' camp (I doubt that mortals are that powerful in Erebus- but then again, we have had a Kylorin before). Maybe that could happen with a high AC?
The new terrain improvement (I have forgotten its name, but it was an ancient temple) included in 2.25 hints at some more fascinating backstory.
Is she just a part of the Ashen Veil's pandaemonium, or are there other people apart from the orcs who worship her?

But as the number of religions is final now in Shadow, the last two religions included being the Empyrean and the Council (btw, any chances for the White Hand making a re-appearance in Ice?) there seems to be no place for a fire religion. (Maybe post-Fall Orcs are just lacking the intellectual qualities for an organised clergy etc.- but Sheelba's story has seemingly hinted at a different possibility) Are minor cults in Shadow, like the CotD or (maybe, maybe) a primitive fire-worshipping religion to be implemented with BTS-corporation/guilds system? (as for the last question: maybe I am asking too much here...)

Huh, that post has become too long again ...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, we already have enough religions using fire magic: The oRder, the Ashen Veil, and probably the Empyrean (Althhough they might just use sunspells that seem like fire. It has been stated that a large number of Bhalls angels remained holy and defected to other gods, most of them to Lugus. This division is likely why fire is so easily controlled, regardless of alignment)

The ashen Veil makes most seinse for Bhall worshipers, since their goddess fell and now shares a Heaven/vault/hell with Agares himself.

Its hard for me to picture a redemption of Bhall senario. If this kind of thing were to take place, I would prefer and "Ascension of Brigit" senario. (Brigit was that archangel of Bhall who remained holy until the end. She led her forces against her mistress, but was defeated. The only sign that there may be good left in Bhall is that she couldn't bring herself to destroy the Beauty of Brigit, so she instead imprisoned her in a cage of ice, for to the north. This is the cause of the northern lights.) It seem to me like if Bhall did return to the side of good, she would still be too broken to think her self worthy of godhood and would give her power over to Brigit. Or, Brigit could just be freed and continue the fight against her mistress.

I think it has been said that the White hand (and even Drifa the white dragon) may make a return in some of the scenarios in Ice. Ice will really just be Shadow made compatible with a broad range of scenarios. There may be some sort of options so allow/disallow major features like religions.

Bhall was once the goddess of the Bannor, but that in addition to pulling some of them strait into hell with her the others were corrupted in body and mind, having their holy crusade turn to blood lust. They became cruel mockeries of mankind, with bone tearing through their very skin. This suggests to me that the "fair creatures, friendly to the elves" that the Orks used to be might actually have been humans from the same stock as their hated adversaries, the Bannor (although this is just my theory, I have no confirmation of it. They could have been some other race that worshipped the same goddess) Who knows, Capria may be Orthus's great-aunt.

Spoiler :

Men mimicked the gods during the Age of Magic. There was no good magic in that age, all sorcery was dark and corrupt so the most fierce battles were between the armies of the wizards and those of the holy. Eventually the one empire of men was split by this war into 10 countries.

One of those countries, the Bannor, was made up of the most pure. Fire was the weapon of the holy and Bhall was the greatest enemy of the corrupt. The Bannor venerated Bhall, they burnt evil cities to the ground and it is said that the holy could walk through fire without being burnt in those days.

Agares realized that it was only a matter of time until the Holy won their war. The countries that venerated evil gods were growing weaker. The greatest students of Kylorin were falling, Laroth and Gastrius were dead, Perpentach was locked within the Tower of Eyes (which held his body, but his mind wandered through creation and farther reaches).

So Agares began whispering to Bhall, playing to her pride. She was the greatest angel, enemies fled before her armies. The compact allowed a god to act only accoridng to the faith of her followers, and that gave Bhall the greatest power in creation. The evil god she was responsible for opposing, Mulcarn, was the least of the gods. The few people that followed him were relegated to the wastes, inconsequential and without power.

But Bhall's fall from heaven changed everything. The world caught fire, meteors pummeled creation, fields burned. But that didn't compare to what happened to the Bannor. Most strongly tied to Bhall they were transformed into cruel mockeries of mankind. Strong and savage, bones tore through their skin and their holy crusades became a bloodlust they could not control.

The greatest temple of Bhall was in the Bannor capital of Braduk. And Bhalls fall was literal. She fell through her vault, through the sky, through creation, through the world and into hell. She struck the world at Braduk and although most of the people were killed instantly some were dragged into hell with her.

Deep in hell and abandoned by their goddess no one expected these lost Bannor to survive. And they wouldn't have if Junil hadn't sent Sabathiel to guide them. It was a long difficult path through generations of the Bannor bent on survival. Their survival through the physical threats was the stuff of legend. But the real threats of hell are more insidious. Any spiritual weakness, any temptation was exploited and those that couldn't remain pure were a risk to the survival of everyone. Strict rules were developed, it was only a fanatical devotion to those rules (both in the physical and the spiritual) that allowed them to survive. A devotion that exists to this day.

There could be several new cults added in Shadow, but none have been mentioned yet. I don't see them using the guild mechanics though, especially since the Cult of the Dragon has been reworked, and cults (which cannot be adopted) are easily made by just changing a 0 to a 1 in the religions file.

 

[MISER SVM]

Ah, thank you very much for this much-needed clarification- very insightful, as this explains the enmity between Bannor and Clan (I thought the ancestors of the Orcs were lured by the smoldering ruins of Braduk into the former Bannor lands)!

So this is how it is going to work... I basically saw the religions as "mono"-/henotheistic (Junil, Kilmorph, Agares) sets of beliefs (only the Overlords and maybe the Fellowship struck me as rather "polytheistic") before. Yet is it still possible for the blood-thirsty ORcish cult (massive human and angel sacrifice!?) of Bhall to be implemented into the game as was the Empyrean before (Malakim UU, the Lightbringer)? Are there any humans who dare to worship Bhall (in a fashion similar to the Illians) or have they all become orcs/goblins/ogres etc. ?

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Wait... i've read the Pedia article before, and remember having he same question then.

who, really is perpentach?

(i say we turn this thread into a thread to develope a unified mythology that makes sense for erebus)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't know if she still has any human followers or not, but when she fell Bhall's priests were all either driven completely mad, or (if they were still good) they were left powerless and eventually sacrificed to Bhall by the masses who though that the rain of fire was caused by their priests angering their goddess in some way.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, Take Fizban/Zifnab for your reference and I'd venture a guess as to who Perpentarch might actually be

 

[zxcvbnm]

If you want to see the answer of whether Bhall has human followers, come to play the Heart of Winter rpg (non-canon answer of course)

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

In the real world, falling into evil means you begin committing evil acts. In a fantasy world, your physical and mental construct begins to change to, for most fantasy worlds are physical depictions of metaphorical issues in our own world. Having this in mind, I believe Bhall's fall is final, which fits better with the orcs that she now leads. I don't see why anyone would think that Bhall is less evil than the other evil gods.

I find Kilmorph more interesting. It almost seems that she's neutral but leaning on the good side.

 

[zxcvbnm]

The gods in FfH are change their minds quite often, one can never know...

 

[onedreamer]

in the current timeframe of FFH Bhall is dead. I remember reading it in the Age of Ice scenario....

 

[zxcvbnm]

Not dead but in a kind of coma.
She woke up in the age of rebirth and became the god of the Clan of Embers

 

[Grey Fox]

in the current timeframe of FFH Bhall is dead. I remember reading it in the Age of Ice scenario....

That depends on if Gods/Angels can die. I believe Mulcarn's spirit has been reborn an taken control of Auric Ulvin. Or something like that.

 

[Kael]

Yeah, shes not dead. She just fell (went from good to evil). During the Age of Ice she is laying in hell recovering from the effects of her change. Now thats shes evil she doesn't have any reason to go fight her traditional advesary (Mulcarn). It isn't until the Age of Rebirth that she starts to act upon creation (within the scope fo the compact) again.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Yeah, shes not dead. She just fell (went from good to evil). During the Age of Ice she is laying in hell recovering from the effects of her change. Now thats shes evil she doesn't have any reason to go fight her traditional advesary (Mulcarn). It isn't until the Age of Rebirth that she starts to act upon creation (within the scope fo the compact) again.

How early in the age of rebirth?
Is it logical for their followers to still fight although she has fallen?

Mulcarn's celestial body is slain but he can be brought to life like Sucellus

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Well, I said the day before in Jonas' story.

 

[Grey Fox]

How early in the age of rebirth?
Is it logical for their followers to still fight although she has fallen?

She brought her old followers (the Bannor) with her to hell. The strong survived, and with the help of Sabathiel, the archangel of Junil, they managed to escape. The Bannor's patron isn't Bhall anymore, its Junil, which is also the Orders patron god.
Bhall has new followers since she fell, and that is the clan.

 

[Kael]

How early in the age of rebirth?
Is it logical for their followers to still fight although she has fallen?

Early in the age of Rebirth (see Jonas's pedia entry for one of her her first actions).

Bhall had a lot of followers among many civilizations in the Age of Magic (especially the Bannor), when she fell her worshippers were transformed into mishapen feral violent killers. Over generations these creatures became orcs, goblins, ogres, etc.

edit: updated my answer to fit our canon (I had forgotten Nikis-Knight had documented one of Bhall's first actions on creation).

 

[onedreamer]

interesting....

 

[zxcvbnm]

I know but if there are some humans who worship Bhall are they likely to fight Mulcarn's worshippers if their closeness causes tensions?

 

[xienwolf]

Evil is always willing to fight evil. It is just a question of how openly.