Biggest Disaster in WW1 & WW2

The worst disaster was...

  • Samsonov at Tannenberg

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • Moltke ordering the entrenchment of the En

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Falkenhayn's offensive at Verdun

    Votes: 2 2.2%
  • Haig's offensive on the Somme

    Votes: 5 5.6%
  • The Maginot Line

    Votes: 9 10.0%
  • Dunkirk

    Votes: 4 4.4%
  • June 1941 in Russia

    Votes: 9 10.0%
  • Japan getting the US in WW2 (Pearl Harbor)

    Votes: 13 14.4%
  • Hitler's No retreat order at Moscow

    Votes: 2 2.2%
  • Hitler's No retreat order at Stalingrad

    Votes: 26 28.9%
  • The Atlantic wall

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Kasserine Pass

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Midway

    Votes: 3 3.3%
  • Salerno Beach

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Atlantic wall

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Operation Market Garden

    Votes: 2 2.2%
  • Hitler's Ardennes offensive

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Germany failing to blow Remagen Bridge

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Berlin

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 9 10.0%

  • Total voters
    90
Yeah I've always been baffled as to why Hess got life while some of those SS boys got prison sentences, and in most cases got them reduced.
 
Well, the SS who had their sentences reduced, were sometimes done a favour by the U.S government. The Communist hating SS were perfect people for the CIA to help undermine the communist wold. That is one of the reasons.
 
pearl harbor - 24 ???
pearl harbor and June 1941 in Russia
like compare fly and elephant
ofcourse June 1941 in Russia - bigest disaster in WW2
 
RUSSIAN1, thats a very large exageration. What the Pearl Harbour - Barbarossa thing boils down to is this; which it worse from a Nazi point of view - bringing America into the war or bringing Russia into the war? Both are big industrial powers with large reserves of manpower, and both way behind the Nazi's in terms of armoured units (no significant numbers of t-34's or Shermans yet - this is 41) and to a lesser extent particularly in the USA's case, troop quality. The USA was in no way a "fly" to the "elephant" of Russia. A quick glance at the industrial output of both countries during ww2 is enough to refute that claim. They were both very strong industrial powers. I'd say that bringing the USA into the war was a worse move than the invasion of Russia for the Nazis.

First of all, the Germans could launch a large scale invasion of Russia and have a very good chance of victory, their progress in Russia 41-42 is evidence of this. Historically, they did come very close to toppling Russia. It is very, very likely that they would have if Hitler had kept his nose out of the Whermachts plans. A German invasion of American soil was impossible - their is no way they could have got a significant force accross the Atlantic. The Russians were much more vunerable to an attack. Also note that Russia's factorys etc had not yet been transferred fully to the east of the urals in 41 - the Russian factory's further west were vunerable to attack.

Thirdly, the Russian war effort was proped up by the American economy. Most of the trucks, food, (I think) ammunition (I think) clothes and even afew tanks were provided by the American economy, becuase Russia could not manage it herself. This allowed Russian factories to concentrate almost exclusively on the production of tanks and such like vehicles. Without this support it is doubtful that the Russian economy could have handled the strain of large scale warfare. So then, not only were the Russians more vunerable to attack, their economy was also not as well suited to the support of a sustained large scale war as the American economy.

Thirdly, American campaigns in Africa, the Pacific and later Europe show that the American economy could handle lend lease at the same time as waging prolonged war. The USSR can make no such claim.

The USA was not a "fly" to the Russian "elephant". In 1941 the USA was a more formidable enemy than Soviet Russia.
 
Pearl Harbor did not bring the U.S.A into the war against Germany-Hitlers declarattion of war on the 10th of December did that.

The U.S.A did supply a lot to the Russians during the lend-lease programme, but the Russians usually did not think the goods fantastic-the Sherman was rather unpopular if I am correct.
Most of the weapons used were Russian made-hardly, if any, American infantry weapons made it into Russia.

The Russians were much more dangerous than the Americans-during the early American action in Africa, the U.S.A were beaten at Kasserine pass, the battalions of Rangers having to be integrated into the remaining Ranger Battalions their losses were so bad. The Pacific also prooved devastating to the Americans in the early months.
The U.S.A would never have crushed Germany without Britain. The Americans ran their operations from there-air, sea and naval(I think). Operation Overlord would have been impossible without the British. The Russians crushing the Germmans were not.
Though America did speed the was up considerably, and was something that could never be replaced, the Russians would still have crushed the German army. Of that there is little doubt.
 
Though America did speed the was up considerably, and was something that could never be replaced, the Russians would still have crushed the German army. Of that there is little doubt.

After Stalingrad the Russians were winning. America and GB just shortened the lenght of the war (and they "saved" europe from the USSR)
 
The U.S.A did supply a lot to the Russians during the lend-lease programme, but the Russians usually did not think the goods fantastic-the Sherman was rather unpopular if I am correct.

I was under the impression that the Ruskies quite liked the Sherman - a rugged, reliable and simple tank. Fits in very well with Russian tank philososhy at the time. And the radio's worked.

Much of the Red army's mobility was due to Anglo-American supplies, if memory serves over 70% of truck being used by the Russian military were American made. I will try and dig up some figures on this, but I think about 80% of the food and 60% of the clothes used the the Red Army were due to lend-lease. This effectively meant that the USSR could forget about trying to feed or clothe etc itself, and concentrate almost entirely on the production of tanks, ammo, guns etc. This gave them the edge they needed to survive 41-42.

The Russians were much more dangerous than the Americans-during the early American action in Africa, the U.S.A were beaten at Kasserine pass,

They lost the Kasserine pass after putting up stubborn resistance for almost 2 days. An Anglo-American force quickley took back the lost ground.

The US army was a much more efficent and effective fighting force than the Red army of 1941. They had better tanks (the M3 Grant and suchlike were much better than the Soviet bt-7's and t-26's of the time), better leadership (due to Stalin's purges), better tactical and strategic doctrine (the Russian idea of throwing as many men as possible into a battle and then hoping things turned out in your favour was fatally ineffective and wasteful), better infantry (the average Red army soldier of 1941 was not as effective in combat as the average American infantryman), and they were better equiped.

Remember, this is 1941 we are talking about.

The Pacific also prooved devastating to the Americans in the early months.

Yeah, the Ruskies sure did perform much better than them in 41-42 didnt they?:rolleyes:

Operation Overlord would have been impossible without the British. The Russians crushing the Germmans was not.

Yup, d-day would never have happened without Britain. And the Russians could beat back the Germans without the Brits too. But not without the American economy behind them.

Though America did speed the war up considerably, and was something that could never be replaced, the Russians would still have crushed the German army. Of that there is little doubt.

No. Without the lend lease program the war in the east would have degenerated into a horrendous stalemate, and if Adolf had let the whermacht do its stuff then they could quite conceivably have toppled Russia.
 
What really beat the Germans in Russia was not anything technological or supplied by the Americans. It was the Soviet 'Scorched Earth' policy of burning as they retreat. It worked against Napoleon, it worked against Hitler. Stalingrad would really have been too early to see the real effects of lend lease. I may be wrong.
But in a country of several million fanatical soldiers, and partisans, with few sympathisers, it is very hard, if not impossible, to win. That is not accounting for the weather, the mechanical failures of German tanks, the lack of cooperation between the SS and Wehrmacht and the brutal Russian methods.
The IS2, arguably the most formidable tank of the war was a Russian tank. Many good sailors of the Merchant Navy died sailing to Murmansk, and their job was a huge factor, but it has to be said, the Russians would probably have found a way to win.
 
Effectively a king tiger that didnt run out of ammo/fuel 2 minutes into a battle:tank:

Not sure what its reliability was like though.
 
It was massive, rugged, had a 122mm (12.2 cm-absolutely massive) gun IIRC, very thick armour, quite reliable, I think, and the largeness was useful for squads of Russians to hide behind the turret while assaulting. I think one figure of the power of an IS2 gun would it would go straight through a Panther at a range of 5 km.

Edit: have a look at the pictures here
 
Certainly superior to the Pershing anyway. I saw a battle report where it took a pershing 3 direct hits to take out a panther. Not sure if that was exactly the norm, but considering it was inside a city at no more than a few hundred yards range....
 
It was very much superior to the Pershing. It could give the King Tiger a good run for its money, and was more reliable. But the fire power is amazing. Straight through all of the armour, twice, at a rangeof 5 km on a relatively thick armoured tank is a eat of engineering.
 
Originally posted by nonconformist
Straight through all of the armour, twice, at a rangeof 5 km on a relatively thick armoured tank is a eat of engineering.

5 kms is a very long distance. They must have had a very good gunner.
 
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