BirdNES 2: Forge of Empires -- The Manonash

[The Strategos]

It is obvious that the story is not told from the culture's perspective (see: multiverse, style, etc.) and much of the complained about "complexity" is only because of the story point-of-view. When you strip it away to how it would have been told, it is much simpler, and much more culturally realistic. I imagine that the story would be recorded in the Wendar temple would go along these lines:

Ahrkenß and his consort have many children, the Elder Gods. To supply food and other needs of himself and his family, Ahrkenß creates the lesser gods, to till the earth and to serve them. However, the lesser gods rebel because they do not want to do the hard tasks. Ahrkenß is cast out into the chaotic waters/void/chaos/nothingness and the battle rages. When Ahrkenß finally escapes the chaotic waters/void/chaos/nothingness, he finds that his children, the Elder Gods, and the lesser gods have destroyed themselves along with the world. So, Ahrkenß goes about recreating the world. From his consort’s dead body he makes the sky and earth, from his children’s dead bodies, the stars, sun, and moons. From the bodies of the lesser gods, he creates animals. However, now he has no one to serve him and make him food, since all the lesser gods are dead. So at last, he takes the little bit of leftover lesser gods and mixes it with some of the clay (made out of his dead consort if you remember) and from it fashions humans.

 

[das]

lurker's comment: Apsû lives!

Yes, that's a pretty good version, though I still wonder what will they make out of it all, culturally. The worship of a primal deity might have the connotations of extreme traditionalism, xenophobia and ancestor worship. I think they also might have human sacrifices in droves. Sort of Azteco-Sino-Jewish.

 

[The Strategos]

Explain why you think human sacrifice would be practiced, as I don't know where you got that from. Culturally, I think it more likely that it would encourage a slave mindset in the lower classes (they are, after all, created to be the slaves of god), encourage production to fulfill the god's needs (which might make the priestly caste as powerful, if not more so than the nobility caste), and, with a few tweaks, pave the way for the introduction of a "god-king" idea (the king being the god's chosen vessel to supervise his labor force gradually turning into the king being one sent from the celestial realm [that is, a god], to supervise the labor force).

 

[das]

Explain why you think human sacrifice would be practiced, as I don't know where you got that from.

lurker's comment: Human sacrifice: when animals just aren't enough! Okay, I suppose it's rather flimsy, especually if humans were created as servants in the first place.

the introduction of a "god-king" idea (the king being the god's chosen vessel to supervise his labor force gradually turning into the king being one sent from the celestial realm [that is, a god], to supervise the labor force).

While that would be the obvious way to sacralise power (incidentally, might lead to an interesting alternate title like Supreme Taskmaster or something), I don't think that the king would actually be deified in the traditional sense; if there's just one god then there's just one and humans can't really compete. At most a king could be his child (so a god in the sense in which the original children were gods, but not like Ahrkenß himself).

 

[The Strategos]

While that would be the obvious way to sacralise power (incidentally, might lead to an interesting alternate title like Supreme Taskmaster or something), I don't think that the king would actually be deified in the traditional sense; if there's just one god then there's just one and humans can't really compete. At most a king could be his child (so a god in the sense in which the original children were gods, but not like Ahrkenß himself).

The Greek Zeus, the Babylonian Marduk, and the Egyptian Ra (to name but the first three that popped into my head) weren't the "original" god of their respective religions, being the sons of an earlier god, but were still considered "gods" to such an extent that they were all the chief gods of the respective religion. So there is, at least, OTL precedent for the fact that being "only" the child of a god does not make one less of a god.

Edit: And I like "Lord Overseer" or something like that as a title

 

[das]

lurker's comment: Suppose so, but in those examples there wasn't a previous, abortive generation of gods, and in the cases of Zeus and Marduk in particular the Ahrkenß equivalent was deposed with much more success. So claiming godhood equal to the godhood of Ahrkenß may be seen as undue audacity, even if you are the son of Ahrkenß.

Yes, I suppose all that translates into stronger-than-average priesthood.

 

[The Strategos]

lurker's comment: Suppose so, but in those examples there wasn't a previous, abortive generation of gods, and in the cases of Zeus and Marduk in particular the Ahrkenß equivalent was deposed with much more success. So claiming godhood equal to the godhood of Ahrkenß may be seen as undue audacity, even if you are the son of Ahrkenß.

Yes, I suppose all that translates into stronger-than-average priesthood.

My point is that being the son/daughter of a god does not make one less of a god. It is the power of the god that determines his/her place in the hierarchy. Marduk and Zeus, for example, are made the chief gods because of their power, not because their “essence” of godhood was superior.

Making the natural assumption that in this case you will eventually have another set of gods created (I’m guessing by the common pattern of gods springing from Ahrkenߒs tears, or blood, or another male-only fluid). Now these new gods may not have the power of Ahrkenß, and thus Ahrkenß will always be the chief or king of the gods, but certainly, they still are gods in essence, and thus there is a giant chasm between them and humanity, and so are due honor and worship. So if the king, through evolution, is said to be one of those gods, and what is more, placed in his position as overseer by Ahrkenß the king-god, himself, then in my mind at least, that is a god-king, who will receive from his subjects the honor and worship that is accorded to other gods.

 

[das]

lurker's comment: Well, if new gods are created then that goes without saying. And I suppose that it is indeed natural for them to be created, but the fact of the destruction of the previous generation still is highly unusual.

 

[The Strategos]

lurker's comment: Well, if new gods are created then that goes without saying. And I suppose that it is indeed natural for them to be created, but the fact of the destruction of the previous generation still is highly unusual.

I suppose it will help explain why some plants and animals are harmful to humans (because they were made from the "evil" dead gods) and why humans themselves seem to be a mix of good and evil (because they are part of the "evil" dead gods mixed with material received from the "good" gods). Though that would not completely explain the reason the entire generation had to be wiped out. Perhaps it could be seen as reinforcing a pure dualistic framework, "good" and "evil" are so equally matched that they will always end up completely destroying each other.

 

[Abaddon]

I am enjoying your analysis. The second part (actual creation) will come next.

It will then be apparent where the four gods i mentioned earlier came from.


Do you think such religious development is over the head of early civilization. I did invest in it, and am now merely trying to weave a plausible story at leaast the priests could believe in... the "current" belief system within my populace is polytheism, but one which sprng forth following Ahrkenß's creation of everything..

 

[LightFang]

Hey, wait, now I want some analysis

Although I'm not as prolific a writer as Abaddon, I too feel the pain in writing creation myth stories. So I guess with only one vague story there's not much to do.

 

[Abaddon]

Hehe, im a prolific writer.. gawd, never thought i'd see the day! I've wrote more storys within this NES than all over combined, and we're not past the first update

 

[North King]

Do you think such religious development is over the head of early civilization.

lurker's comment: God, no. People, stop underestimating your ancestors.

 

[Abaddon]

Good, i'll continue then As i said the proviso is that in reality only the priesthood know such things, most people worship a variety of gods depending their status

 

[The Strategos]

Hey, wait, now I want some analysis

In the beginning, there was naught but a great void. The entire universe was a stormy sea of matter.

And from this sea five gods emerged. They had always been there since the beginning as minds, as conscious beings, but their bodies took shape at one point, and they gained power. They all arose at the same time, helping each other take form, building off each other to shape the world to their liking. These are the Five Gods of the World, and they rule from the heavens.

There gods are: Wynsor - God of Strength; Nephint - God of Intelligence; Donn - God of Creativity; Sharism - Goddess of Charisma; Tiam - Goddess of Wealth.

Wynsor takes care of all things physical in nature. Nephint presides over such things as cunning and wit; Donn, art, music, and invensions. With Sharism there is beauty, looks, and charm, and with Tiam we have things relating to selling, trading, and social status. Yes, there is overlap, because all these people together make perfection. You cannot have one without the other. Some people may be stronger at certain aspects, but overall, to be lacking in one is to be lacking in all.

About their looks: Wynsor is--

It is possible to see in the mythology of the Rynt a proto-Cartesian dualism, whereby the mind and body are separate. Given time, an anti-material philosophical strand could easily creep in, which could manifest itself in the exaltation of poetry and music over more “material” art (such as sculptures, mosaics, and paintings), and an idealization of man-man love over the more “crass” man-woman love. Also, I would expect, given the various realms the gods overlook, that agriculture and fishing will be diminished, with trading, and to a lesser extent, crafts, emphasized as the main economy. Also, there is no god who one would naturally call on in times of danger or war, so there might rise a “magician” class outside of the priest caste which makes pacts with the lesser gods/demons for those needs.

The fact that there are five gods who are equal in power suggests a more democratic religion, which could eventually express itself in anti-centralized tendencies in the government. At first, there might be a kingship whereby the king is thought to embody the five ideals in one person, but as history progresses, a series of weak/incompetent kings will likely lead the people to believe that power must be shared because one person cannot have all five virtues perfectly. This belief will lend itself to the creation of a strong aristocracy, and perhaps even a country without a king but ruled solely by an aristocratic council. The democratic tendencies in the culture may also filter down to the lower classes, which perhaps could provoke social strife between the aristocracy and the “new” wealth allied with the masses. The results of this social strife could lead to either a modification of the religion to make it less democratic, leading to centralization, or the triumph of the “democrats” which could lead to a pseudo-democracy ala the Roman Republic.

Finally, because of their realms, the gods seem perfectly poised to spread, since their worship is not tied down to any one physical realm or attribute. At the same time, this very characteristic makes their worship less likely in day-to-day living. After all, their realms seem more idealized virtues, which are fine to give lip service to, but in the daily life, may seem distant. As such, as I mentioned before, magicians and other, lesser deities will rush in to fill the perceived need of a more “down-to-earth” religion. This will probably lead the masses to identify more strongly with these “unofficial” deities, while the upper class, who have less of these concerns, may make up the majority of worshipers for the “official” deities.

 

[LightFang]

Hey, that's pretty good. You nailed spot-on the plans I was going to take this country into!

You did however do a great service, which was to show the rise of magicians and such, which would be a liason to the lesser gods. I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I'll explore that later.

Thank you! Apparently it was plausible enough that some analysis could be made of it. Huzzah~

 

[The Strategos]

Hey, that's pretty good. You nailed spot-on the plans I was going to take this country into!

Naturally, after all, I do have a god who knows the future on my side.

 

[JosefStalinator]

Writing orders now.

 

[Head Serf]

Orders sent.

 

[justokre]

I sent mine a few hours ago.