BirdNES 3: Discussions & Questions

Thank you Alex.
 
I think I am going to leave this NES. It is nearly dead, not to say completely dead, and it's been more than 1 month since BJ even mentioned being working on the update. Sorry for that, BJ, but I just don't want to have to wait anymore for this NES to be updated.

Portugal is open once more.
 
Believe! BirdNES will return, just not at the moment.

In addition to the previously mentioned RL problems with my mother in law, several new problems have arisen over the past couple of months. My wife has been ill and has surgery this week. We will know the results of that within a couple of weeks. The results are likely to be very good or very bad with little room for in between. Until until we have better "visibility" on her situation, I cannot apply the necessary time or energy to NESing that is needed to revive my game.

EDIT: Great video! Thanks.
 
I truely hope things go well for you and your family Beej.
 
Kraznaya said:
The preview thread for this NES was an enormous undertaking which included the involvement of many prominent members of the community that promised a lot in terms of NES quality, promises which I do not feel were fulfilled in the actual execution of the NES. Birdjaguar himself asked, for example, for some historical research by all the players for their respective polities in the interest of modeling factions. In relation to the rest of the NES, the time and attention spent on promoting it or discussing it is an ostentatious display.

As for arguments of "historical accuracy" or lack thereof: I feel, as a NES purporting to originate from OTL 1490, that Birdjaguar made a good faith attempt to make it as historically accurate as possible at the origin point (save for design choices such as the alternate Americas) and make it as historically conceivable as possible thereafter. Unfortunately, due to lack of time and/or pre-established knowledge base by the mod, this was not satisfactorily fulfilled in many crucial parts of the NES. I myself was frustrated by the vagueries and incongruencies found within Central Asia which lead to my dropping of the Safawiyeh, and I have heard similar complaints with regard to England, India, the Levant, and Iberia, amongst others.

Birdjaguar meant for this NES to be a complex and serious NES. The "simulationist" trappings of the complicated stat system are obvious when you look at how deeply and closely it attempts to model various aspects of polities. I do not feel that this NES was meant to be light and casual, although perhaps it is headed that way after all given the changes in the player base. The problems with the black box, as others have stated, arise not from the opaqueness of the numbers, but the inability of players to determine cause and effect between changes in the stats at all. There are many simpler simulationist stat systems, including in one NES set in a similar time period as this one, which have been much better received by players overall.

I feel compelled to address these issues because Birdjaguar did comment that he felt decaying interest in this NES, which is certainly true, and because of the variety of issues associated with this decay. I do not have any issues with Birdjaguar as a mod in general, but in my opinion this may have been too ambitious an undertaking given his current ability to invest time in NESing, and explains the loss of interest by certain players.
Click to expand...

This NES began its journey in 2008. Since then, Beej has had several big things both in RL and on this Forum to deal with. I think we should be incredibly thankful that he has managed to keep this NES alive for so long, and consistently turned out updates of an amazingly high quality. His previous experience as a NES mod clearly show his capabilities to run a NES of this depth and complexity. His moderating ability in my opinion sits comfortably along side any moderators NESing has seen.

Beej is a very open and flexible mod. If you had issues with vagueries and incongruencies, if you had approached him with additional information or corrections I am sure he would have taken them into account. However, once a NES is moving along, it is very difficult to make these tweaks without unbalancing the game. History is wildly deviating from OTL and thus makes it harder and harder to compare historical facts to. NESers are always going to push faster than IRL. They know to explore, they know what to research. As much as players my claim to play IC, their actions can never truely reflect this. Beej tries his best to therefore create a fun and open playground for us to lead our nations. To some this is a boon, to others a farce. I am happily within the first camp.

Can you give examples of better run, historical NES? Ones that allow so much creativity and flexibility? IMO it is pointless to play out history the same way it was IRL, but I know that some NESers get satisfaction out of this.. perhaps this is why we have lost some players here.

But, the main reason we have lost players is due the RL kicking Beej's ass. While he has tried his best, momentum between updates has never been the best, and players are very fickle. If they don't see their "big plans" come to fruition within a few weeks, they are bored and off to the next nes. Its a great shame, but it happens again and again.



(I replied here since really, this thread should be the one for discussion, not the game thread)
 
Abaddon said:
Can you give examples of better run, historical NES? Ones that allow so much creativity and flexibility? IMO it is pointless to play out history the same way it was IRL, but I know that some NESers get satisfaction out of this.. perhaps this is why we have lost some players here.
Click to expand...

This is a godawful argument, and it keeps getting bandied about. It is not as though there is a switch between "following history" and "disregarding historical outcomes". There are a variety of options in between. What Kraz and others advocate is not that we should "follow history to the letter" or "follow it with minimal divergences". He's saying that if you start an NES from a point in history, then you should respect the starting conditions. England should not have a huge amount of resources to bring to bear on a situation; the English monarchy was perpetually starved for money. To make an extremely rich England in an NES doesn't make things "more fun". It means that the English player doesn't have to face the same concerns and challenges as they did in that time period. And the fact of the matter is that even if you change things around tremendously, you'll never have an England whose homeland is as rich as France in the Early Modern Era. It simply should not happen. England doesn't have the resources to support that kind of revenue.

Now, just because the English throne has the same problems and challenges as they did in the real world doesn't suddenly mean that you have to go the "same way" as real history does. It means that you have to think and be intelligent and use the resources that you have. It means that you can use what you know about the world at the time to your advantage.

It means anything but "play[ing] out history the same way it was IRL."
 
Abaddon said:
This NES began its journey in 2008. Since then, Beej has had several big things both in RL and on this Forum to deal with. I think we should be incredibly thankful that he has managed to keep this NES alive for so long, and consistently turned out updates of an amazingly high quality. His previous experience as a NES mod clearly show his capabilities to run a NES of this depth and complexity. His moderating ability in my opinion sits comfortably along side any moderators NESing has seen.

Beej is a very open and flexible mod. If you had issues with vagueries and incongruencies, if you had approached him with additional information or corrections I am sure he would have taken them into account. However, once a NES is moving along, it is very difficult to make these tweaks without unbalancing the game. History is wildly deviating from OTL and thus makes it harder and harder to compare historical facts to. NESers are always going to push faster than IRL. They know to explore, they know what to research. As much as players my claim to play IC, their actions can never truely reflect this. Beej tries his best to therefore create a fun and open playground for us to lead our nations. To some this is a boon, to others a farce. I am happily within the first camp.

Can you give examples of better run, historical NES? Ones that allow so much creativity and flexibility? IMO it is pointless to play out history the same way it was IRL, but I know that some NESers get satisfaction out of this.. perhaps this is why we have lost some players here.
Click to expand...

It is a farce, not a boon, because it rewards imagination rather than good sense. Yeah, sure, if I'm so imaginative I can reach the moon in the nineteenth century, hooray for a fun and open playground, hooray for playing completely IC and exploiting the naivety of everybody who does, hooray for the fact that imagination allows us to generate a completely implausible storyline. It's a farce.

Yes, of course players are lost when a NES ceases to make sense. No-one wants to play history the same as it was; they just want to play it out as if it were all the same except for what the rulers decided to do, which, of course the players can determine. If players who will happily go along with being able to control their governments without being able to make their people do completely implausible things - and in general this is, not just for this NES - and if everyone else just rides roughshod over them with completely implausible plans, then of course all the players who are not trying to do insane stuff are going to end up leaving.

The only way to make a NES storyline make sense is if the mod makes sure that the ridiculous and the impossible does not happen, and that can be helped by the players not attempting it in the first place.
 
I still don't know how England got rich.

However, I just know that it was within the Black Box. Certain changes in the situation, actions, and discoveries opened the gold. Somehow, they did something RIGHT within the black box, although whether it would be right OTL ccould be debatable.

This NES is so far very fun for me. First I didn't understand how things works in Genoa, but I worked it out and followed it with Vijayanagar (which is much more Ahistorical). Whether my actions are as good as possible, I can say how I got to where I am now.

I focused on trade, and had tests to see what is stronger: Melee or gunpowder. After discerning the tactical abilities of introducing gunpowder, I began tax cuts for importation of gun-makers and guns themselves, and started mass-buying them while supporting domestic production. Meanwhile, I kept the war up and my coffers as I invested in each of my factions with generous donations as they supported my culture scores.

EDIT: It cannot be the same despite what the leaders do. The simple wording of an orderset can change history. I suppose bird already imputed OTL for his black box and stats for a few generations to come out as close as real life. For things to change like in this NES, we have changed the nations and history.

I agree, we all look for common systems of how the world is ordered. But our interaction changes things. If we played a NES from 1900, even if we followed OTL as close as possible, the world would be much different by 2010 almost no matter what from Moderator interpretation, order literacy, and players themselves. The world changes as we interact it. A pristine historical surface is tarnished every time we touch it. We must embrace the change and enjoy watching how the world is different and striving to up your own countries.
 
Terrance888 said:
However, I just know that it was within the Black Box. Certain changes in the situation, actions, and discoveries opened the gold. Somehow, they did something RIGHT within the black box, although whether it would be right OTL ccould be debatable.
Click to expand...

:confused:

Just because rules are internally consistent doesn't mean they're good...
 
I agree, we all look for common systems of how the world is ordered. But our interaction changes things. If we played a NES from 1900, even if we followed OTL as close as possible, the world would be much different by 2010 almost no matter what from Moderator interpretation, order literacy, and players themselves. The world changes as we interact it. A pristine historical surface is tarnished every time we touch it. We must embrace the change and enjoy watching how the world is different and striving to up your own countries.
Click to expand...

That. Is. So. Not. The. Point.
 
North King said:
This is a godawful argument, and it keeps getting bandied about. It is not as though there is a switch between "following history" and "disregarding historical outcomes". There are a variety of options in between. What Kraz and others advocate is not that we should "follow history to the letter" or "follow it with minimal divergences". He's saying that if you start an NES from a point in history, then you should respect the starting conditions. England should not have a huge amount of resources to bring to bear on a situation; the English monarchy was perpetually starved for money. To make an extremely rich England in an NES doesn't make things "more fun". It means that the English player doesn't have to face the same concerns and challenges as they did in that time period. And the fact of the matter is that even if you change things around tremendously, you'll never have an England whose homeland is as rich as France in the Early Modern Era. It simply should not happen. England doesn't have the resources to support that kind of revenue.

Now, just because the English throne has the same problems and challenges as they did in the real world doesn't suddenly mean that you have to go the "same way" as real history does. It means that you have to think and be intelligent and use the resources that you have. It means that you can use what you know about the world at the time to your advantage.

It means anything but "play[ing] out history the same way it was IRL."
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware you are even playing in this NES? I thought you declared yourself uninterested upon the New World being remixed?

I don't know much about the English situation.. I have not followed its stats from the start since I'm over the other side of the world.

Were its starting stats suitable, or were they wonky from the start?

If they were wonky.. why didn't anyone complain then?
If they are wonky now.. either the player has played well (an conversely others who have not grown have played poorly) or the ruleset is broken.. I don't know which case this is.

The only thing I have seen within the thread is Luckymoose complaining at losing ground compared to England.. again I have not been closly follow their stats.. but I am sure Beej could explain how the two nations stats have developed over the duration of the NES.
 
I would like to ask one Question.

"Bird, have you tested the Black Box with OTL spending to view the changes as it occurs?"

If the answer is yes and that it was still close to OTL, then it is a good rule set in the situation of OTL.
 
spryllino said:
It is a farce, not a boon, because it rewards imagination rather than good sense.
Click to expand...

A NES should reward both.

Yeah, sure, if I'm so imaginative I can reach the moon in the nineteenth century, hooray for a fun and open playground, hooray for playing completely IC and exploiting the naivety of everybody who does, hooray for the fact that imagination allows us to generate a completely implausible storyline. It's a farce.
Click to expand...

Now you are simply exaggerating and being silly.

Yes, of course players are lost when a NES ceases to make sense. No-one wants to play history the same as it was; they just want to play it out as if it were all the same except for what the rulers decided to do, which, of course the players can determine. If players who will happily go along with being able to control their governments without being able to make their people do completely implausible things - and in general this is, not just for this NES - and if everyone else just rides roughshod over them with completely implausible plans, then of course all the players who are not trying to do insane stuff are going to end up leaving.

The only way to make a NES storyline make sense is if the mod makes sure that the ridiculous and the impossible does not happen, and that can be helped by the players not attempting it in the first place.
Click to expand...

What has happened that is so impausible you can compare to a 19th century mood landing!? :lol:
 
Abaddon said:
I wasn't aware you are even playing in this NES? I thought you declared yourself uninterested upon the New World being remixed?
Click to expand...

Oh I'm sorry! I didn't know that a person was suddenly ineligible to discuss historical settings just because he didn't play in the NES in which they were used. My bad!

Also, I prefer the word "mutilated."

I don't know much about the English situation.. I have not followed its stats from the start since I'm over the other side of the world.

Were its starting stats suitable, or were they wonky from the start?

If they were wonky.. why didn't anyone complain then?
If they are wonky now.. either the player has played well (an conversely others who have not grown have played poorly) or the ruleset is broken.. I don't know which case this is.
Click to expand...

Totally not the point there, champ.

As I just said, "And the fact of the matter is that even if you change things around tremendously, you'll never have an England whose homeland is as rich as France in the Early Modern Era. It simply should not happen. England doesn't have the resources to support that kind of revenue."

It doesn't matter what you do to it. If the rules allow it to happen, they're flawed.
 
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