It must be one or the other. If a player managed that, it was obviously an error, because it makes no sense and has no plausibility at all.
And if the black box makes no sense, yeah, Bird should tamper with it.
BirdNES 3: Discussions & Questions
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
- Start date
It must be one or the other. If a player managed that, it was obviously an error, because it makes no sense and has no plausibility at all.
And if the black box makes no sense, yeah, Bird should tamper with it.
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
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- 18,165
Okay. So, you start out with Bavaria. Sweet little Duchy, you think. And you're like, whatever man, invest money into stockpiling beets. And it just so happens that this is a trigger in the black box ruleset for boosting income x2. So you're like, COOL, and you keep storing beets because it worked before. And suddenly you have an income of 10x the surrounding nations because you gamed the rules.
Suddenly Bavaria, despite not substantially increasing in size, is able to launch a destructive war of conquest over the face of the European map. Its beet-fueled hordes crush my poor Poland-Lithuanian dual monarchy, despite the fact that there is no physical way Bavaria could generate more wealth than me. I, meanwhile, have just been minding my own business, generally being a decent dude, but hey, I didn't find the beet turbine loophole.
And suddenly, despite being a reasonably competent ruler, I'm out of a job.
You'd pat someone on the back for that?
Suddenly Bavaria, despite not substantially increasing in size, is able to launch a destructive war of conquest over the face of the European map. Its beet-fueled hordes crush my poor Poland-Lithuanian dual monarchy, despite the fact that there is no physical way Bavaria could generate more wealth than me. I, meanwhile, have just been minding my own business, generally being a decent dude, but hey, I didn't find the beet turbine loophole.
And suddenly, despite being a reasonably competent ruler, I'm out of a job.
You'd pat someone on the back for that?
Frozen In Ice
Emperor
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- Jun 30, 2007
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- 1,536
The whole point of the black box was to make it harder to game the stats, but with what you're saying I guess you could say it hasn't completely fulfilled that.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
The whole point of the black box was to make it harder to game the stats, but with what you're saying I guess you could say it hasn't completely fulfilled that.
Not when England can spend it's entire income and jump two tech levels in one turn. It doesn't aid the RPer, only the guy who abuses the system.
Abaddon
Deity
Nope, when I said:
You're example is exactly what I meant. (If there was such a rule) There should be rules stopping you being able to trigger such a bonus more than once, to stop gaming of the system.
Frozen In Ice
Emperor
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- 1,536
I don't think anyone deliberately abused the system at all. It's just that the underlying equations of the black box must have been a little faulty.
North King
blech
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I don't think you're getting it. I don't care HOW Bavaria gets its overpowered wealth, be it hoarding beets or selling salt to the Malians. The point is that Bavaria shouldn't have the wealth of Poland-Lithuania under any circumstances, regardless of how "well" they exploited the rules. Nor should the Most Serene Republic of San Marino, regardless of how well they havened taxes, be able to get tens of thousands of mercenaries and capture Istanbul with them.
Oruc
Reactionary
Sounds good to me. The nes seems similar to Birdjs other neses so pretty much what I expected.
Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
- Messages
- 7,623
While everyone is complaining about England and Luckymoose is out-right accusing me of gaming the system, let me point out three nations.
England
Spoiler :
Portugal
Spoiler :
Spain
Spoiler :
So while no one blinks an eye at a meteroic rise of >6000g by Portugal or of 5500g by Spain in one turn, Englands much slower rise over 1-2k gold per turn is somehow completely unbalanced.
Anyway, all this just to say that i think if England is imbalanced than other nations are even more imbalanced and people should stop using England as an example for their problems with this NES... I especially think that people should not imply that i am abusing the system (Luckymoose).
Kraznaya
Princeps
... thanks for missing the point of the discussion completely.
There are crazy jumps evident in those stat changes (your "econ level" (whatever that means) jumping from 14 to 20 is just one), yes. How does that make England's relative wealth make any more sense? How does it validate the black box when it's obviously constantly being altered by human recalibration due to player complaints?
Kraznaya
Princeps
Oh, stop it. It's not always all about you. Or him.
Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
- Messages
- 7,623
I was referring to Luckymoose saying that i was somehow abusing the system. I was off-track from what you were discussing because i wanted to respond to Luckymoose.
I follow your discussion - i just have nothing to add.
BJ has repeatedly said that he wants to make a NES that is 1) fun and 2) interesting and for me he has been wildly succesful. I'm not kissing ass here- just telling you how i feel about his NES. Now- i wasn't here for the first four updates or the pre-NES thread so i don't feel ready to comment on your discussion.
Anyway... carry on.
agreed; thats sort of my point. I wouldn't have said anything if it weren't for the continuous references to England.
Kentharu
Zebra Commander
Has anyone ever thought that maybe bird's blackbox is just flawed?
Ninja Dude
Sorry, I wasn't listening...
No Ken, this is serious and you sucked at playing Naples you rules abuser.
Kentharu
Zebra Commander
Well... ok then...
qoou
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2007
- Messages
- 1,991
I feel like there's too much implied blame thrown at Beej's direction. It's hard to mod a NES. It's harder to mod a NES realistically. It's far harder to mod a NES both realistically and objectively.
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that the NES was flawed; another example is Hungary's powerful nobles deciding to just let a 16-year old bastard son take the throne and start mass-hanging nobles. And sure, it's Beej's ruleset that ultimately caused these flaws, but hey, he didn't have much to work off of. Coming up from scratch with something good is nearly impossible.
We really should get some sort of community effort going to make a decently accurate blackbox for at least one time period (pre-industrial would of course be best due to the slower rate of change). That would probably take more work than any of us is willing to put in though :/.
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that the NES was flawed; another example is Hungary's powerful nobles deciding to just let a 16-year old bastard son take the throne and start mass-hanging nobles. And sure, it's Beej's ruleset that ultimately caused these flaws, but hey, he didn't have much to work off of. Coming up from scratch with something good is nearly impossible.
We really should get some sort of community effort going to make a decently accurate blackbox for at least one time period (pre-industrial would of course be best due to the slower rate of change). That would probably take more work than any of us is willing to put in though :/.
Shouldn't he be blamed for things he's messed up?
HMS Vanguard
Prince
I was always of the opinion that NESing was to be taken with a grain of salt... To be enjoyed, as a pastime, a way to while away the hours at school, work or retreat from a partner... Clearly this assumption was incorrect!
The fact that there is such a heated debate over the historical accuracy, or time a Moderator can pour into it to indulge our own small fantasies of our little nation achieving greatness is beside the point when I think of the Fun I have had thinking up orders trying to destroy nations, or devising new methods to invade the neighboring nation. I am actually quite shocked that people have begun to pseudo-attack each other over their own opinions, and has made me realise that people may in fact take it a little seriously (My opinion, don't hate me for it!!). Why suddenly turn on the Mod it things don't go your way!! It not like the United Kingdom, France and indeed, much of Europe went into isolation when decolonisation swept across the world, instead they picked themselves up, dusted themselves off and kept on keeping on. If things don't go your way, you should not become a petulant child and whine about, but for those of you that know better, then act like a reasonable adult and deal with it!!
Again, I reiterate, I always, and will continue to believe that NESing was, and remains, a fun, enjoyable pastime to utilise our imaginations to breathe into life a world quite unlike our own. Those moderators who indulge us this, instead of berating when things don't go our way, we should just be thankful for the time they do put in...
I will engage no further in this discussion, but I wanted to make my opinion known to those who care to read it, and those who disagree, be a adult, and respect the opinions of others!!
I bid you all a good day.
Vanguard
The fact that there is such a heated debate over the historical accuracy, or time a Moderator can pour into it to indulge our own small fantasies of our little nation achieving greatness is beside the point when I think of the Fun I have had thinking up orders trying to destroy nations, or devising new methods to invade the neighboring nation. I am actually quite shocked that people have begun to pseudo-attack each other over their own opinions, and has made me realise that people may in fact take it a little seriously (My opinion, don't hate me for it!!). Why suddenly turn on the Mod it things don't go your way!! It not like the United Kingdom, France and indeed, much of Europe went into isolation when decolonisation swept across the world, instead they picked themselves up, dusted themselves off and kept on keeping on. If things don't go your way, you should not become a petulant child and whine about, but for those of you that know better, then act like a reasonable adult and deal with it!!
Again, I reiterate, I always, and will continue to believe that NESing was, and remains, a fun, enjoyable pastime to utilise our imaginations to breathe into life a world quite unlike our own. Those moderators who indulge us this, instead of berating when things don't go our way, we should just be thankful for the time they do put in...
I will engage no further in this discussion, but I wanted to make my opinion known to those who care to read it, and those who disagree, be a adult, and respect the opinions of others!!
I bid you all a good day.
Vanguard
ITT: People handwaving legitimate concerns about the running of what at least used to be the most popular game on this forum and dismissing everyone who wants to continue playing a flawed game as childish whiners.
Protip: "Reasonable adults" don't ignore problems and harass everybody who disagrees with them; reasonable adults fix the damn problems.
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