BirdNES 3: When Worlds Collide
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
- Start date
Kraznaya
Princeps
Silver do you agree that the "Mughals" (should really be called Ferghana tbh) having arquebuses at this point in the game is absolutely ridiculous given how the real timeline worked out?
Abaddon
Deity
Not at all. If it is not possible to change events, what's the point of nesing? Key battles can go different ways, different leadership can drive their nation into an entirely different direction to that of otl.
I think what silver means is that there is no plausible way for Vijayanagar to develop a capable military. Of course things can be changed, but that doesn't answer silver's original post, which illustrates not why Vijayanagar didn't have a capable military but why it couldn't have had one.
Abaddon
Deity
It can't change things overnight, but anything is possible if you have money. Otl those leaders choose not to spend in a way possible in Nesing. Guns can be bought, expertise sought etc etc...Hindsight is 2020, so we can take different paths, concentrate our nations wealth on different things than otl.
IMO that's the whole fun of nesing. Making your nation something greater than it came to be in otl.
IMO that's the whole fun of nesing. Making your nation something greater than it came to be in otl.
No competent mod should ever allow, for example, Portugal to conquer all Europe, Abaddon. If something utterly implausible comes true, that is a reflection of the mod's incapability and the player's OOC conduct, not of the player's outstanding skill.
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
OOC: There's no point of discussing this spryllino. Abaddon and silver (along with me) have discussed this countless times to no conclusion. Abaddon seems to believe that determination and money can change a nation's inherent structure so that it can do other stuff than OTL; silver disagrees and etc etc.
Abaddon
Deity
What alex said 
By all means, take it to www if you wish though. A good debate is always entertaining
By all means, take it to www if you wish though. A good debate is always entertaining
Oruc
Reactionary
Agreed, Don't know why you would nes if you expect everything to happen the same as in history. Why even let players take control of these nations with a handicap or such an advantage.
According to all my reading Ferghana and Babur had no access to gunpowder weaponry at this point in time. That wouldn't come until he became King of Kabul (with some Ottoman assistance). At this point him and his warriors should be getting their arses handed to them by the rather fearsome Shaibani Khan and his Uzbeks (who btw is really quite an awesome fellow who I feel should be represented in the stats) he was certainly a far more major force in Central Asia than Babur and his motley crew. In fact if I'm not mistaken it was around this point that Babur actually lost the throne of Ferghana itself. He was usurped by his bastard half-brother. And then he lost Samarkaqand to his cousin, leaving him a guerrilla fighter without a throne. Oh and his sister got kidnapped by Shaibani Khan. Baburnama makes for an interesting read. I strongly recommend it.
Basically yes. Even after Krishnadeva Raya and during Rama Raya and their military and centralization reforms, and even at the very height of its power Vijaynagar proved unable to contend with the assorted Islamic armies. After all it was the under Rama Raya at the very height of their power that the city of Vijaynagar was burned and Vijaynagar defeated in the battle of Talikota.
Vijaynagar is capable of expanding yes. It can conquer Orissa, Bidar, Berar. But to conquer the subcontinet, including Bijapur, Ahmednagar, and Golkonda, frankly is absurd. It was extremely difficult for even the Mughals to conquer them. Vijaynagar is in no position to conquer, and administer these territories let alone the entire subcontinet which is what Birdjaguar seemed to be suggesting.
I agree this should go to WWW if you want to continue the discussion.What alex said
By all means, take it to www if you wish though. A good debate is always entertaining
Regarding the stats and nation weapon capabilities: they are what they are as listed. Progress towards improvements is determined going forward by the players and how well they manage their spending. Land and naval warfare supremacy is open to all who can figure out how to achieve it. We have left OTL and embarked on another where an uncertain future awaits us all.
Abaddon
Deity
Done.
Beej~ when do you predict the next update? Is it being written or are you waiting on other things?
Beej~ when do you predict the next update? Is it being written or are you waiting on other things?
I expect to post update three this weekend. I'm not sure what day yet.
Other News:
Andis-1 will not be playing England, so that nation is available. New list to go up soon.
Other News:
Andis-1 will not be playing England, so that nation is available. New list to go up soon.
This, I think, is what the latest player list looks like as of Wednesday afternoon. Let me know if I've got you wrong.
Secure claims:
Spain: Luckymoose
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Milan: Germanicus12
Hungary: qoou
Ottoman Turks: Azale
Safavids: Kraznaya
Malacca Sultanate: Cynovolans
Songhai: Frozen in Ice
House of Lee: Alex944
Mughals: ~Darkening~
Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Venice: spryllino
Japan: T_F
Florence: Lord Joakim
Naples: Kentharu
Moscow: das
Algiers: Oruc
France: The Strategos
Poland: Stuck in Pi
China: Abaddon
Aztecs: Adrogans
Savoy: Cull
Ethiopia: Yui108
Delhi Sultanate: Karalysia
Scotland: Matt0088
Portugal: Milarqui
Pope: Methos
Vijayanagar: Terrence888
Austria: Agent89
Available now:
A few notes about the open nations:
England: On the periphery of any European upheavals England is limited in its expansion onto the continent, but is well placed to get into the race to discover new lands.
Bavaria: Small nation with kingmaker potential. With strong alliances it could become a force to be reckoned with.
Gujarat: The Indian subcontinent is in turmoil and divided. opportunity knocks for the brave who can battle their way to supremacy. But the Europeans will arrive one day and all of the nations there must be prepared. For those nations who can achieve stability, the trading world is at your feet: east to China, west to Europe and into the heart of the unknown lands that lie beyond the edges of the world.
Genoa: If you can "dance under the elephants" that are France and Austria, you can build a great trading nation that spans the world.
Egypt: Lost a recent war and its richest lands have been absorbed by the Ottomans. It would be a challenge.
Ayutthaya: Well suited to the empire builder and those who want to build a trading nation in south Asia.
Kalmar Union:If the current Swedish unrest can be resolved and stability gained, Kalmar is well situated to dominate the northern Europe and open up new world colonies.
Korea: Threatened by both China and the Mongol, Korea may be a challenge, but good diplomacy could well allow it to expand far beyond its current borders at the expense of any or all of its neighbors.
Mongols: Currently expanding in an attempt to rebuilt the great empire of the past.
Teutonic Knights: In the middle of the action in Eastern Europe. Lots of friends and enemies all around. Expect to have to win your way to success on the battlefield.
Vijayanagar: A powerhouse of southern India poised either for conquest of the sub continent or trade with East Asia and around Africa to Europe.
The hidden nations of the new world are unknown. While some of the names are currently known, their locations and stats are not. These nations get private updates and maps. There are a variety of them awaiting the intrepid explorers of the civilized world. The Indigenous peoples of the world do no know their location relative to others, so until a known landmark shows up on both their map and the public maps, they wait and watch and wonder. There are lots of opportunities for creative players.
Secure claims:
Spain: Luckymoose
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Milan: Germanicus12
Hungary: qoou
Ottoman Turks: Azale
Safavids: Kraznaya
Malacca Sultanate: Cynovolans
Songhai: Frozen in Ice
House of Lee: Alex944
Mughals: ~Darkening~
Ryukyu: Ninja Dude
Venice: spryllino
Japan: T_F
Florence: Lord Joakim
Naples: Kentharu
Moscow: das
Algiers: Oruc
France: The Strategos
Poland: Stuck in Pi
China: Abaddon
Aztecs: Adrogans
Savoy: Cull
Ethiopia: Yui108
Delhi Sultanate: Karalysia
Scotland: Matt0088
Portugal: Milarqui
Pope: Methos
Vijayanagar: Terrence888
Austria: Agent89
Available now:
A few notes about the open nations:
England: On the periphery of any European upheavals England is limited in its expansion onto the continent, but is well placed to get into the race to discover new lands.
Bavaria: Small nation with kingmaker potential. With strong alliances it could become a force to be reckoned with.
Gujarat: The Indian subcontinent is in turmoil and divided. opportunity knocks for the brave who can battle their way to supremacy. But the Europeans will arrive one day and all of the nations there must be prepared. For those nations who can achieve stability, the trading world is at your feet: east to China, west to Europe and into the heart of the unknown lands that lie beyond the edges of the world.
Genoa: If you can "dance under the elephants" that are France and Austria, you can build a great trading nation that spans the world.
Egypt: Lost a recent war and its richest lands have been absorbed by the Ottomans. It would be a challenge.
Ayutthaya: Well suited to the empire builder and those who want to build a trading nation in south Asia.
Kalmar Union:If the current Swedish unrest can be resolved and stability gained, Kalmar is well situated to dominate the northern Europe and open up new world colonies.
Korea: Threatened by both China and the Mongol, Korea may be a challenge, but good diplomacy could well allow it to expand far beyond its current borders at the expense of any or all of its neighbors.
Mongols: Currently expanding in an attempt to rebuilt the great empire of the past.
Teutonic Knights: In the middle of the action in Eastern Europe. Lots of friends and enemies all around. Expect to have to win your way to success on the battlefield.
Vijayanagar: A powerhouse of southern India poised either for conquest of the sub continent or trade with East Asia and around Africa to Europe.
The hidden nations of the new world are unknown. While some of the names are currently known, their locations and stats are not. These nations get private updates and maps. There are a variety of them awaiting the intrepid explorers of the civilized world. The Indigenous peoples of the world do no know their location relative to others, so until a known landmark shows up on both their map and the public maps, they wait and watch and wonder. There are lots of opportunities for creative players.
Kraznaya
Princeps
Birdjag are you planning on at least making an attempt to fix Central Asia and adding the Uzbeks? If not I'm taking a class on England and would rather play them, driving into the heart of Central Asian soup that has been arbitrarily determined would almost be bad as playing in a deformed North America.
ATM I have no plans to make major changes in central Asia, but could add the Uzbecs. I think it is more important to get the the game going again than trying to fix all its ills. The game is a large on with lots of players and nations; adding more NPCs is not high on my priorities.
You may certainly take England and just ignore the "deformed" continents of the western hemisphere if you choose. An English void there might well suit the plans of other nations.There are lots of opportunities in Europe for you.
For fixing Central Asia the following should be represented in some form:
Kingdom of Samarkquand (though since its 1500 Shaibani Khan will have already conquered it. Like I said, an awesome fellow. A grand prize for any conqueror being the former capital of Timur and coveted by all those in the area.)
Kingdom of Ferghana (I use kingdom loosely. It was a chiefdom compared to glorious Samarkquand and the mighty Uzbeks. The weakest of the Central Asian powers)
Khanate of Moughalistan don't know much about this. It has a brief mention in Baburnama, the Khan coveted the throne of Ferghana but nothing much came of it.
Shaibanid Uzbeks (now with their posession of Samrakquand they are poised to march on Ferghana, which in OTL was greatly successful. They control most of Transoxia. They're extremely powerful and Shaibani Khan is a ruthless fellow who supposedly has sworn to exterminate those of the House of Timur.)
Kingdom of Kabul is rich though a more perihary player in all this. Babur had the good fortune of being one of the only Timurid princes alive. His uncle the ruler of Samarkquand was killed by Shaibani Khan. His bastard half-brother who usuurped his Ferghana throne was killed by Shaibani Khan. His cousin who took Samarkquand was flayed alive and turned into a drum by Shaibani Khan. (Are you sensing the pattern here?) His other relative the King of Kabul died. So Babur by defult was invited to become ruler of Kabul.
Really Shaibani Khan is just too awesome to leave out.
Kingdom of Samarkquand (though since its 1500 Shaibani Khan will have already conquered it. Like I said, an awesome fellow. A grand prize for any conqueror being the former capital of Timur and coveted by all those in the area.)
Kingdom of Ferghana (I use kingdom loosely. It was a chiefdom compared to glorious Samarkquand and the mighty Uzbeks. The weakest of the Central Asian powers)
Khanate of Moughalistan don't know much about this. It has a brief mention in Baburnama, the Khan coveted the throne of Ferghana but nothing much came of it.
Shaibanid Uzbeks (now with their posession of Samrakquand they are poised to march on Ferghana, which in OTL was greatly successful. They control most of Transoxia. They're extremely powerful and Shaibani Khan is a ruthless fellow who supposedly has sworn to exterminate those of the House of Timur.)
Kingdom of Kabul is rich though a more perihary player in all this. Babur had the good fortune of being one of the only Timurid princes alive. His uncle the ruler of Samarkquand was killed by Shaibani Khan. His bastard half-brother who usuurped his Ferghana throne was killed by Shaibani Khan. His cousin who took Samarkquand was flayed alive and turned into a drum by Shaibani Khan. (Are you sensing the pattern here?) His other relative the King of Kabul died. So Babur by defult was invited to become ruler of Kabul.
Really Shaibani Khan is just too awesome to leave out.
Link me to a map of where they were.
Great to have you aboard. I will do so tonight. There might well be notes in the rules about the Pope.
Kraznaya
Princeps
Most of the khanates you can discern their general location and environs by their name. This is an okay map of the Shaybanids about 10 years later, which you can discern the location of the other khanates (who were later conquered by the Shaybanids, silver has provided information on who is independent at this point and who isn't) from.
Transoxania is of course what is referred to on this map as the region between the Amou-Darya and the Syr-Darya
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