Boff-05 Izzy Wizzy was unBearable (Izzy,Emp,Cont/Is)

S.ilver will take this rare opportunity to call :smoke: on Liq. Researching Construction? Liq, we could have brokered MC for Construction. Construction is a cheaper tech, and AIs on Emp aren't going to give you a fair deal, so we can't get any equivalent techs without giving out gold. We basically can't get anything of relatively fair market value for MC now. And the big kicker is that everyone had Construction. Recall that we discussed Construction vs MC, and that's why I dialed MC first. So now we are stuck with a tech that we cannot trade or broker for anything except Mono :crazyeye:

Regarding Machinery vs Civil vs Feud... I will agree with Liq here that Machinery is best, simply because it leads to Engineering (nevermind that we could already have 8 turns of tech into Machinery :mischief:). Early Engineering is crucial for Spain to crank elite Trebs out of Citadel enhanced cities.

Regarding Hanni building Maces. Hanni cannot build maces unless we are clumsy enough to let him get his hands on metal. He has no metal right now, and so far has been unable to obtain it. So unless he manages to sneak it some island cities that miraculously have metal (there might be some south of horse dot's peninsula), then we don't have to worry about ANY metal units. Thus Pikes > Elephants and Trebs > Anything in a City.
 
Sucks to be liq!

Well if it's any consolation.... at the start of my turn set, machinery was a 26 turn tech at even gold... it's now 15ish... plus we can start building cats now!!! hehehe.

Sucks to be a liq!

Cheers!
-Liq
 
Ok. So it looks like machinery wins.

Are we delaying civil, then? machinery > engineering for citadels and trebs?

If I jump in and take a set,
a) should I bother building a couple spears to guard against the elephants hanni has in hadrum?
b) should I bother building cats, or just wait until we can get super trebs?
c) i'll build xbows once machinery comes in
d) i'll build a few spies for defense and maybe a couple for offense

Let me know if I'm cleared for liftoff.

Grover
 
Yeah, your instincts about the spies is right Grover. Not sure if we have enough EPs with anyone to do anything, but for defense, and maybe some scouting out of people who despise us already...

Don't know about Spears. I don't think Hannibal will attack us on his own, because he likes us. I personally wouldn't bother, but I also wouldn't have built WEs in Boff-03, and that turned out to be a mistake. So I completely trust your judgment there Grover.

Regarding Cats, Trebs are superior in every way in knocking down cities, but if we get caught outside of cities, Cats are better for shredding units. So we need some of both, but obviously more Trebs for wrecking Hannibal.

X-Bows are strictly defense against neighbours other than Hannibal, since he has no metal. Hannibal is basically screwed until Gunpowder (which he might tech rather quickly), so we need to use the opportunity to run him over with Engineering based units. We also need to do our best to keep him without Metal (think the Cathy-style denial in Boff-03).
 
520ad, turn 208

As discussed, our plan is to research Machinery then Engineering, and to press Hannibal with pikes, trebs, and whatever other units we can scrape together. Hanni has a sizable tech lead on us but no metal (we hope).

Hanni's visible units include a bunch of LB and archers in Kerkouane, Hippo, and Hadrumetum, plus two elephants and a cat in Hadrumetum. I'll keep a watch on that town to monitor its troop level.

We just started research on Machinery. It's due in 15 nominal turns at 60% rate, with -3gpt. We're close to founding Pony Dot and opening borders with Churchill, and we'll see what that does to our tech rate.

Madrid: Looks good. It can grow a few times before hitting caps. It's a third of the way done with a forge, 10 turns left. MoM would be 26 pre-forge turns here.

Barc: Lots of room under caps, but limited food. I think it will stagnate at size 9 unless it takes back the floodplain tile from Cordoba. 4 turns left on Barc's forge. I work a mined hill rather than the grass forest, trading away 1 food for 2 hammers.

Seville is well below its caps and growing slowly. Lots of cottageable land around it, still. This town isn't a great candidate for whipping because of its slow growth. 16 turns left on its forge. It'll have a low hammer count for the rest of the game unless we mill over some of those riverside cottages, and I think a market might have been a better call here than a forge, but we've already started on the forge, and I'll let it finish.

Cordoba is also well under caps and growing slowly because it's working two gold mines. Library in 13 turns.

Toledo is another town with slow growth and lots of room under caps. It's working on a Hindu missionary. We could probably use another of those when it finishes, for Pony Dot.

Santiago is working on a settler for Pony Dot, 8 nominal turns. This is one city that has ample food for whippability. I can 3-pop whip the settler this turn, and I do so.

Salamanca is size 1 and has +2 food. It'll be a slow-grower. It's working on a forge--55 turns. Man, we're building a lot of forges. Whipping here will hurt. Some worker attention would be nice.

Murcia is size 1 and working on a 4-turn granary. It needs cultural growth for the 3 wine tiles and the rice tile.

Here we go...

535ad

Hindu spreads into Nottingham. That's nice.

Santiago: settler > half-built courthouse in the queue, 58 turns, but growth is in 2, and we'll have more hammers towards it soon.

I get open borders with Churchill, and we go from +1 to +6 gpt from the extra trade.

550ad

The Hanging Gardens is built in a far away land.

Hannibal has added a second cat in Hadrum. He also has a settler there. His two elephants have mobilized and are marching south towards Hippo.

565ad

Churchill adopts bureaucracy.
Hannibal has 500 gold available for trade? Let's see how generous he feels...
Not very generous. He declined to give me 200 of his 500. Oh well.

Toledo: missionary (heads to murcia, which needs a cultural growth) > missionary (for pony dot), 5 turns

Santiago grows to size 4 with growth again in 2 turns. The courthouse drops to 14 turns, from 58. 12 turns left on whipping unhappiness.

580ad

Hannibal adopts bureacracy.
We drop to second in score, behind Zara by 2 points.

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Say hello to Valencia, formerly Pony Dot. It works the unimproved floodplain and starts a granary.

Valencia's founding dropped us from +2 to -4 gpt. Not bad at all.

I delete Howie the obsolete fog-busting warrior, and we get 2gpt back.

Barc: forge > cat, 4 turns
Murcia: granary > courthouse, 60 turns

I remember to send an axe into Churchill's land to scout. Our galley sets sail, too.
I send an archer from barc to valencia to relieve the 3xp warrior as its garrison there.

595ad

Santiago grows to size 5. This town is just great--it bounces right back after a whip. Courthouse is now in 7 turns.

Everyone will trade HBR. Well, not Alex.
The only tech we have that anyone wants is MC, and that's only wanted by Churchill.
I try begging all 50 of Churchill's gold from him, but he won't part with it.
I offer Churchill MC (1053 beakers) for 50 gold plus HBR (585 beakers), and he says I'll have to do better than that. Hmmph. I try walking the gold down 10 at a time and re-offering the trade. He keeps declining. Finally, I get down to HBR for MC straight up, with no gold involved. He won't take that, either. I ask him what would make the deal work, and he tells me that I'd have to kick in 140 gold from our side, along with MC for HBR. Everyone else is better at this trading thing than I am, I think. We don't make the deal.

I do sell Churchill one of our spare gold resources for 5gpt.

Our missionary spreads Hindu to Murcia.

We have 8 turns left on machinery. Hannibal has 2 turns left on engineering. I increase research to 70% at -12gpt to shave a turn. We have 251 gold in reserve, currently.

Hannibal still has 2 cats and a settler in Hadrum. I can't see the 2 elephants anymore.

610ad


Spoiler :
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Mono (280 beakers) + 30 gold for MC (1053 beakers)? Yow. That's too much. I try to renegotiate, but he still won't trade Aes for MC or even HBR for MC straight up. No deal.

Somebody builds Chichen Itza.
Hannibal proves that the world is round.

Murcia grows to size 2.

Hannibal's cats move out of Hadrum, heading south past Hippo just like his elephants did. What's he up to down there?

625ad

Cordoba's granary was destroyed by a foreign spy. We catch an English spy in Cordoba. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Our exploring axeman sights an English elephant near London.

640ad

Toledo: missionary (to valencia) > spy, 6 turns
Barc: cat > lighthouse (5 turns)--1 more food from those clams

655ad

A great prophet is born somewhere.
Churchill gets a nice research event.

670ad

Our missionary spreads Hinduism to Valencia.

Madrid: forge > spy, 4 turns
Machinery is in 2 turns, so I figured I'd turn out a quick spy before going to crossbows.

685ad

Our peace treaty with Churchill expires.
Hannibal asks for open borders, but I turn him away.

Our spy from Barc finally arrives in Valencia. I move the 3xp warrior out to fogbust for a few turns until murica gets a culture pop. And then I'll delete him. I start the last sword in the area marching towards our capital, where the others have already started arriving.

Six cities grow this turn: salamanca, santiago, toledo, cordoba, seville, and madrid.

Santiago: courthouse > forge, 14 turns

Hanni's cats and elephants are back in sight, in/near Hadrum.

700ad


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Engineering is next, 16 turns at 60%, +9gpt.
Hannibal is on Divine Right, and Churchill is on Literature. I find those tech choices comforting.

England will trade monotheism (280 beakers), aesthetics (702 beakers), horseback riding (585 beakers), plus 50 gold for machinery (1638 beakers). I consult with Liq and pull the trigger on the trade.

Sorry. I didn't capture the screenshots for the three techs. You've seen them before, I'm sure.

The trade lifts us back into first place by a comfy margin. Take that, Zara.

We revolt to Org Rel, because so many of our cities are still building core buildings.
After the revolt, we are still 16 turns to Engineering at 60% research, +4gpt.

Hannibal now has 2 visible settlers cooling their heels in his western cities.

715ad


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Darn arsonists. I spend 59 gold to save it.

A great spy is born somewhere else.

Barc: lighthouse > xb, 5 turns
Cordoba: library > granary, 6 turns (replacing the one that fell victim to sabotage)

730ad


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I give the 11 gold and food stores for the +3 diplo with Churchill.
He has a scary number of units in Nottingham now. But at least he's pleased with us. And he's not in WHEOOHRN mode.

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I start our swords and cat up to barc just in case.

Madrid: spy (stays home) > xbow
Toledo: spy (to seville) > spy

745ad

No news is good news?

760ad

Seville: forge > crossbow

775ad, turn 225

Hanni and Zara will trade theology. We don't have anything they want, though.
Alex would take HBR from us, but he doesn't have anything cheap enough to offer us in return.

Ok. I'm going to wrap it up here.
Engineering is 10 turns away.

Santiago's whipping unhappiness has died down. It has 5 turns left on a forge. You could plug in something else for a turn and execute a 4-pop whip and then get back to the forge.

I think I'd do a spearman quickly in Barc because those English elephants scare me a bit.

Here's a look at the English lands. Our galley has an axeman aboard. It can go to the southeast of England's area and see what's in the fog there.

Spoiler :
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Oh, and I forgot to point out that Hanni has a crossbowman now, too. And maces too.

That means he has iron, right?

These are the troops in Hanni's NW city, Kerkouane. Note the xbow and the maces.

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Churchill is trading Iron to Hannibal. This represents a minor setback, but not a huge one as he still has no horses, so cannot flank our troops. We will need to bring along X-Bows though.

Trebs are the main force though, as they will be needed to crack the castles that are going up and shred the units inside.
 
Ok well DE you have time to play or does silver take it and save the game from all of liq's smoke?

Btw, I would get walls done in any town planning on making trebs... reasoning here is castles are up in 10ish turns but need walls in place before starting on them.

Barcs has walls, Madrid and Santiago can use them.


Cheers!
-Liq
 
Would have to nuke it with a spy. BTW since Santiago has so much food and 100% grass/hill tiles, it's both hammer heavy and cottage based commerce.

To prevent fraying of the nerves best to put focus on hammers or commerce depending on how we want the town to operate. Also Santiago has room for two water mills... pave over the south cottage and plunk one north.

Cheers!
-Liq
 
:suicide: ya, sorry, guys, this really blows. I didn't get to it today, so unless someone else hops at it first, I'll play tomorrow night. Blame school. And danish weather. And influenza. And whatever else you can come up with :blush:

Anyway, what happened to the Cathy avatar dude (Norvin)? :drool: :rolleyes:
 
Yep, I'm on it.
 
775AD (225):

Preflight check. For some crazy reason we are leading the score charts by 10 points. Despite being horribly backwards. Ok, let's see what we can do about that. And the answer is "nothing" as we have nothing anyone wants, oh well.

Zooming around the cities to see what we can put out...

Madrid on a crossbow, and we will need much military for anything, so good to keep that up there. I see we surrendered a mine to filler town; that place needs a garrison and it's own tiles improved. Madrid is trying to push out a Scientist I guess, which explains the specs.

Barc also on a crossbow, and we'll have some heavy potential here soonish. Thinking about phasing out the metric ton of troops here, but there's really no point, we might as well just burn them in an assault. I see we gave up the flood plain tile again, so switch it back to Cordoba.

Seville also building a crossbow. I might just do some military phase outs of archers with all this incoming firepower.

Cordoba is rebuilding its granary, lol. Still needs a forge before we can make any units here.

Toledo is 2 turns from a spy, so I'll let it finish before we grab infra.

Santiago has cottages, and I didn't do it! Liq already yelled at S.ilver for trying to plaster cottages in this place. We have an insane crop yield from here, so whip the forge for 2 pop.

The last 3 cities are too new, and have almost zero improvements, so we need to get to them first. I do whip Valencia's granary though.

790AD (226):

A bunch of stuff finishes building and the workers do their usual dance.

Barc finishes an X-Bow, dial a Cat.

Cordoba finishes a granary, but we need a forge to do anything really first...

Santiago also done a forge, so dial up the 2 turn barracks and let's get cranking!

Valencia finished it's whipped granary, so dial a forge with the intent to whip it at some later date...

805AD (227):

Islam clearly founded somewhere in Carthage's lands. Nowhere we can see at the moment though.

Toledo finishes a spy and we dial for a forge.

Try to beg 60 gold from Churchill, but he doesn't go for it. Oh well.

820AD (228):

Zara will trade Lit just as the GLib is built, great...

We also nab a spy near Barc, so funny things happening clearly...

Murcia got its border pop, so workers getting on the farm...

Madrid done a Crossbow, so order a Catapult.

Santiago is finished a Barracks so we are now LIVE! Dial up a Crossbowman. Growth next turn for more :hammer:.

Hannibal grabbed Islam LAST turn, and will get Drama NEXT turn. Ugly.

835AD (229):

Hannibal has cash this turn but won't give us any, aww...

Cat done in Barc, dial for a Crossbow.

850AD (230):

A lot of fun randomness happening this turn. Well, Hannibal is researching GUILDS and has founded some city somewhere. Great.

England gets more Hinduism in some of its cities and Alex eats a Slave Revolt, lol.

Zara also passed us in score, not that that is surprising in any way.

Anyways, checking the foriegn advisor screen, seems that Churchill finally got some sense knocked into him and stopped giving Iron to Hannibal.

860AD (231):

Year increment change. Excitement.

Alex founds a city somewhere where we'll never find it, and Hannibal eats a slave revolt in his capital, lol.

870AD (232):

Madrid finished a Catapult. Uh, ok dialing a crossbow.

Seville finished a Crossbow, dial another.

880AD (233):

Alex demands Gold! No, not gold per turn, the resource gold. In the interests of having him go after Zara AGAIN, we give it to him.

set4alexdemand.jpg


We finish a Crossbow in Santiago and immediately go for another one. Santiago grows in another turn, sick...

Valencia also got its border pop, so moving to work the horses. We now have horses, for some excitement...

890AD (234):

Barc finishes a Crossbow, and I dial another.

Engineering next turn to pull some tech trades hopefully...

900AD (235):

set4engineering.jpg


It turns out we can't broker anything. Zara discovered it not too long ago, and Churchill has only 9 turns left on it, so we can't get anything of value from him. We can get Lit, which is THREE turns to tech. Ugh.

Ok, well dialing up Civil, which is actually 10 turns, so nice...

910AD (236):

Hannibal finishes Guilds and is now teching Gunpowder in 8 turns. This is, well... a major cause for concern...

Forge done in Salamance, so dial a courthouse.

920AD (237):

We get a Great Scientist in Madrid.

set4greatscientist.jpg


He bulbs Phil, so I bulb it so we can trade it next turn.

Santiago finished a Crossbow, and I :smoke:ed by not getting a wall up here, sigh... Dialing one.

930AD (238):

We catch one of Zara's spies in Cordoba.

Trade time!

From Zara, we do this deal.

set4zaratrade.jpg


Then we find that fool Churchill, and do this trade.

set4churchilltrade.jpg


He wants cash from us for some reason despite Phil costing more. Whatever... I look around to see if we need anything else whipped, and we don't. So I dial up a Civics change. Going Vassalage, Caste System, and Theocracy.

set4civicschange.jpg


Crossbow done in Madrid, and I'll order a Pikeman.

Barc finishes a Crossbow, and goes for a Citadel.

Murcia finished it's courthouse, and we dial up a forge. All 3 wines are improved now, yay.

940AD (239):

Hannibal gets a Great Scientist. Meh.

We pass up both Hannibal and Churchill with Spy points.

Toledo finishes a Forge and we dial a Barracks. I think the plan for this city will be to build Horse units.

Madrid grows again, so I hire another scientist.

Churchill will do this strange deal...

set4chuchilltradeagain.jpg


5 gold? WTH? Ok, sure. Strangely enough, it is an exact fair trade...

Dial up Paper in 7, as it seems the idiot Hannibal is missing that. We MIGHT have a chance at the Lib race.

I trade one of our many sugars for Cash from Alex.

Also renegotiate the Zara Cow deal from 3gpt to 6gpt. Win.

It also appears as if I goofed when I was looking at the Glance Table earlier. Hannibal does indeed have iron, even though he's not trading for it. This is bad, because it means he got some stable source of iron.


Going to pass it up here, so we can discuss attacking Hannibal or not. I still think we should be able to pull it off. If he gets gunpowder, it might actually be easier, as Muskets are terrible. We are not in trouble until he lands rifling really...


EDIT: Remember to cancel giving away gold to Alex when peace expires with him!
 

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Preturn:940 AD
Silver says "Give me 6 trebs plus [a laundry list of supporting troops] and we attack.

ok so BOG boring turns while I initialize the build up so Grover can set finalize the hammer for Silver (who says no sweat) and let him deal with this crap hahahaha.

All military from the towns that matter.

Lets take stock..

Santiago isn't even done building walls, let alone a citadel. Game says 8 turns to completing those.. The town is growing like a weed and has serious hammers yet to work, so that 8 is nominal with a capital N. This is the total IW/RC town.

Barcs is 5 turns on a citadel while running cottages.. going to need to farm over those cottages once we go to full war footing, but in the meantime, that's fine. What a trooper this town is, Total HE/WP for sure!

Madrid doesn't even have walls started so screw that town, it's going to concentrate on the supporting cast of maces and make sure I get 3 pikes in the stack. It'll be first to build a university tho when education comes in!

Micro a few more hammers and spot the places I need to run civil farms. Holy Toledo's wheat and Cordoba's Corn looking like all that's left, single farm patches both.

Looking like Barq's and Santiago will be pushing out trebs every 4.5ish turns...Right then, so about 25ish turns all told to get Six 3xpromo trebs out the door and ready to sack Hannibal.

Silver says absolutely he can take Carthage and extort phat techs from Hannibal. Who is a liq to doubt?

So a rarity for Liq.... ALL MILITARY!

[1]950 AD
Seville finishes an xbow, put it on a 10ish turn mace rofl. Slow cooking indeed. Two maces from this place I guess then it's back to culture buildings.

Santiago grows to size 10 and walls finish, citadel in 6ish now. Growth again soonish.

Delete the galley + Axe on the other side of the world saving us 2 gold per turn. We actually are seeing England via EP now.

[2]960 AD
Alex and Churchill both found new Towns in distant lands =p


[3]970 AD
Moving workers around whee.

[4]980 AD
Hannibal finishes gunpowder. Muskets would be a nice change from city based long bows actually.

[5]990 AD
Valencia (Pony Town) grows to 4 as well as Cordoba to 10...

Hannibal founds another town in the murk.

Zara goes mercantilism so he just got banking. That is nice since Hannibal was getting phat trade routes =p

Hannibal is now doing banking in 3 ... WTH.

[6]1000 AD
Happy day! Barqs finishes its citadel and a treb in 4. Both Barqs and Santiago can push out trebs in about 4.5 turns.

[7]1010 AD
1010ADpaper.jpg

Whoohoo!

Education in 24... meh. The slow train to Liberalism

Great person in 39ish so not bulbing education!

Citadel builds in Santiago, Treb in 5ish, Town is growing next turn and it can work riverside workshops for more hammers.

Salmonella grows to uh size low. This is not a bad town though I don;t think it's going to be working that incense any time soon!

[8]1020 AD
Hannibal asks for open borders... hehe no you fool.

England gets a great scientist. Meh.

[9]1030 AD
Hannibal goes for music in 3... grr run away tech monster.

[10]1040 AD
First Uber Treb rolls off the assembly lines.
1040ADANewHope.jpg

3 promos off the bat and if one survives for 5 fights... a 4th promo! Need a liq remind just how hard it is to manage a 3rd promo on a siege unit, let alone a 4th? That is a super plush treb for sure.

Zara wants paper + 100ish gold for compass, eff you.

We are finally no longer Alex's worst enemy thanks to Silver's civic changes! Safe to Cancel the gold for nothing deal so I do so for no penalty.


[11]1050 AD
More troops roll off the line. Barcs and Santiago are pushing out chain trebs while Madrid is pushing out maces (and one pike it turns out). Seville Cordoba are both slow cooking Maces while Holy Toledo is pushing out 9ish xp mounted units.... yeah horse archers(!) for the raze.


[12]1060 AD
Wow, we are supposedly the 2nd most cultured behind only Zara.... shocking

[13]1070 AD
And Alex comes begging we drop trades with Zara, sod off.

Hannibal has paper in 2(!)... If the AI is smart enough to go for liberalism, we have no chance.

Will stop here.

2 uber trebs are built. 2 more are almost done. Silver wanted 6 before attacking which can be built and delivered in about 10ish turns.

Silver wanted 6 trebs + the "rest of the troops*" to start at the Rally point (the North dye at the border).

* 3x pikes (done) and a mass of xbows (done) and Maces (in progress) and some Mounted units (yes Holy Toledo is building mounted units for real!) and all those crap axes sitting on the border with england..

Most troops currently Chilling in Madrid. Seville needs to spam culture buildings after its mace finishes. Oh and move all those crap axes that need to die out of barqs...

So imo Grover, just play till you get those 6x trebs (in 10ish turns) and watch silver work his magic.

For easy reference
Barcelona -> Trebs!!!!
Santiago -> Trebs!!!!
Cordoba -> Maces
Madrid -> Maces
Seville -> Culture Buildings
Toledo -> 2 move Pony units
The rest of the towns-> basic infra.

England will 100% NOT attack at pleased btw (but I'd keep those xbows there)

Hopeful Tech Path Assuming Hannibal is a Moron Who Techs Randomly (super slow edition) is

liberalism -> (nationalism) -> Conqs!!! (mil tradition and gunpowder). Avoid Economics as we want citadels for as long as possible.

Silver assures me he will beat Hannibal like a red headed step child and laughs at muskets. Time will tell!

Btw, Boff-06 will be an organized leader on an Ice Age Conts map. Front runners are mehhwtf(org/exp) of the HappyDuct or Freaky Hair Zara(cre/org) of the culture whore obby... both with musket UU's for the 1200 ad loving!

Vote early! Vote often! er.. wait.

Cheers!
-Liq
 

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Just to stress one thing... No Econ!

Economics kills our beautiful Citadels so we need to avoid that tech until we own the entire continent.... yes that means zara is next and alex is cleanup... Assuming Silver rolls over Hannibal like he says is easy.:goodjob:

Romper Room with Conq's is what Izzy is all about.:bounce:

Cheers!
-Liq
 
I can get to it once Grover has played.

Oh and for Boff-06, Organized you say... I suspect Darius is a serious nono for the economic abuse, and Freddie is, well, Freddie... What aboot a Caesar?

If it's about Mehhwtf and The Afro, I'd pick Mehhwtf. If we can select opponents to make sure Zara isnt in yet another game :rolleyes: I hate that guy.
 
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