Bored and problems playing FFH. So i decided to makeup a scenario/modmod

I wonder why Hyborem's rule changed "Cold Ruin" into "Cheerful Cold"? (you misspelled the first word of Letum Frigus, and changed the meaning greatly)


Edit: I actually starting thinking of ways that the change might seem appropriate. For one, it is a monument to the fall of Mulcarn, showing the world that even a God (who is surely more powerful than a mere angel like Hyborem) can be defeated. Also, I suspect that the frigid climate maintained thereby the remaining power of Mulcarn would actually be considered a refuge from the surrounding hellfire. Many men may now look back on the Age of Ice fondly, in comparison to the Age of Despair. I actually think it would be pretty interesting if Auric remained in Erebus, and was close to regaining his Godhood. Although it is clear that he wants to reestablish the tyrannical reign of the Age of Ice, that is considered a good alternative to the current state of creation. The chief struggle in the Age of Despair would be not between good and evil, but between different kinds of evil. (It may also be that Mulcarn is moving closer to being good, seeing his old enemies the fallen angels of Bhall taking over creation)
 
oops... edited.

what makes this more embarrasing is that i know the diefference between letum and laetum. (i took latin for a few years, and that was among the few thing i gleaned from those classes)
 
Sounds great! Maybe the sheaim could be a vassal state of hyborem? They presumably brought him into the world and brought armageddon, I bet they regret it now. :p

Both their leaders would be dead btw so they would need a new one. Probs some demon or something - I minotaur would be cool and probs not to hard to get a pic of.
 
I think the player should be forced to choose between aiding other evils and gaining more fighting strength, or aiding good for a better result, but weaker units. Like I said, earlier, I don't think the OO and Hyborem should be allied, after all, Hyborem brings fire, while the OO should want the world to flood (or at least want a lot of water).
 
Exactly. Of course, if the OO conquered the world, the Infernal rule might seem like paradise, similarly to how the Age of Ice seems like paradise in the Age of Dispair.
 
I really like the sound of this one - a real "it's going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better" take on the next part of the story. I've actually made passing reference to the Age of Despair in Dannmos' pedia entry as I love the idea of a continued timeline beyond the Age of Rebirth.

If you do want to run as lead for this one Moon Hunter and would like any coding backup, I'd be happy to volunteer with what I can.
 
There are some fantastic ideas in this thread :)

Previously, as I said that the ruins of a cave of ancients, i meant it just as plain text in a pop-up, but now that the implementation of such buildings as unique features was suggested, i really like that idea. Would definitely provide a more flavourful way to provide various types of mana. And flavourwise, the mechanic to provide 1 unit of mana seems good... Those are ruins, so probably only the strongest one would prevail. E.g. i can imagine the Amurite ruins would only provide mind mana for the boost to research, rather than fire(which will probably be infernal only in the scenario) or body (i cant imagine the amurite ruins of a magocracy society provide body mana flavourwise...

As for the "lesser evil" thing, im starting to get convinced that if complete, this will be probably playable only on custom made maps. So rather a scenario than a modmod.
As for the flavour of it, right now id like Hyborem to start overpowered, but limited in movement. If played on a regular map, that would mean
a) hes gonna waste everyone sharing the same continent (Remember how Barbatos started?)
b) everyone is soon gonna start turtling (Hyborems problem right now)

Also the quests would be harder to implement, even thought the though of the Unique ruins feature having a random chance to appear, kindof like the 25% for each unique feature of the current mod would be awesome (each time you play, you find other surviving ruins)

As for the civs, since this would be a scenario that focuses more on role play, i would rather want the good and neutral civs to strive to bring back peace to erebus, rather than have other evil civs want to conquer it themselves.

Another brilliant idea of this thread was the idea of bringing back Auric Ulvin back as Mulcarn, probably fighting Hyborem. Flavourwise One wants to scorch the world, the other wants to freeze it. By keeping this fight up, they make the world suitable for life, basicly they cancel each other out. Also that may be one of the reasons why Hyborem hasnt destroyed Erebus already and why he is trying to bring in reinforcements.

As for the playable races, the evil ones would remain canon Erebus, while the good and playable ones would be survivors. Basicly the good ones lost their leadership, coz they were prime targets.
Now the civs that would be playable, would be survivors defined by their predominant civilisation, that would have other civs units too. This means i would need to reintroduce the way civ-specific units were handled in vanilla.
So that if you play an Elven survivors race, you dont get a mage unit that has dwarven tag instead of elven and uses elven model, but really use the khazad adept unit that Sez has brought us recently. So back to literaly unique units. Most would be only gainable by events or by aiding/finding them on the map.

The problem here would be following:
If i want to set the Palace to give the units random chance of giving out racial promotions, I would need to set the build order not to build a unit, but a unitclass instead which i cant imagine how hard would that be. After implementing into BTS, the game command function just uses unitclass and makes unit retain former promotions. I once captured an orc archer with an inquisitor, and to my surprise, it had the default archer skin, but orc racial promotion. Probably could bypass this problem by having the racial promotion affect the unit looks (see Hero promotion), but that would mean i would need to set the racial promotions to be civilisation-like promotions and so alter the unit. Meaning you dont build a human adept, but a lanun adept. Not a Elven horseman, but a Ljosalfar horseman.

Another way to handle this would be to define the race-specific units as build orders. E.g. At first you can only build human archer, (that would give random human race promotion/or maybe not) but after researching/making contact with elven survivors near Yggdrasil, you can get/research a tech for building an elven archer (that would again have Ljosalfar/Svartalfar racial promotions). I certainly would like to rework the techtree and this way seem f(l)avorable enough at the time.

But back to the original civs question.
Right now i have defined the following civs:
Infernals (powerful, dominant), AV
Sheaim... would remain as in FFH, but would be ally/vassal of Hyborem, AV
Auric Ulvin/Mulcarn of Illians... Would be the equalizer/main target of Hyborem, OO or White hand religion.
Maybe some corrupt OO Lanun faction

Other civs would have been destroyed, therefore made into surviving civilisations.
Those that flavourwise were CoE, were defeated along the good and neutral civs. And always remember, that although There are 7 evil civs in the canon FFH, only the Sheaim want to destroy the world. And only Sheaim and Infernals give diplo bonus for raising the AC.
Imagine the Calabim: No humans = No food
One thing is destroying the world, another thing is conquering it.

All the civs would be defined for the purposes of this scenario, but only newly defined survivors would be playable...

@Kol.7 : The sheaim brough Hyborem into the world. But i dont think they regret it. I think they are constantly drunk from the victory after finally (almost) destroying the world :)


Id like the player to bring back the good old times and make some of the evil civs defeated...
Kyleen: Giggles told me to help you mister Hyborem.
Hyborem: WTH? Why you calling Ishn'trel, the commander of the 5th legion of Balors, a trusted luitenant that served me for five centuries Giggles? I have no use for imbeciles.
On the battle field:
Perpentach:
A little meteor I shoot to the air.
What it hits, I do not care.
Hyborem: Another dimwit. - whispers to a nearby ruhin archer -
When he makes another of those non-sense speeches on one of his cattle-pults, see to it, that someone accidentally pulls the lever, is that clear?

...others seeking redemption and survival... like the Calabim
So playing as the evil civs, would probably be hard if your goal would be to get hell where it came from, only to get yourself be proclaimed the next unquestionable ruler.

Another reason for the premade map(s) would be that i would need, that the game would not only run script for making unique features, but also for certain game scripts.
Maybe some of you heard that Kael and co. want to bring back Bhaals 2nd in command angel who refused to fall with her, but need to start some mechanic.
I on the other hand would like a quest where on an impassable area/island surrounded by volcanoes (near the ruins of Barduk the Burning) you find Bhaal and his Angel fighing out (dunno how to make it impassable to other units, maybe make it on a desserted island surrounded by volcanoes, both Bhaal and her unfallen angel would use the catapult mechanic as to not kill each other, they could fight each turn, been given a powered march promotion) where you could help the Angel finally kill Bhaal and then get her as a hero unit to help you, maybe even remove the damage limit by applying some promotion/spell. (Absolutely no idea how to make this possible, would probably need to assign the Angel to a different civ, if i want the Infernals not make fight with the Barbs)

Reasons why i wanted to make the OO barbarian allied to Hyborem was rather from not knowing whom to assign the OO religion otherwise. But if I make a corrupt Lanun nation, that might be a better target for the OO religion.

This concept is still in phase of brainstorming, I will certainly add new civics if i get that far. The council membership would be very much pointless now. Since the war with Hyborem would be permanent, in order to lower the war weariness, i would either make some way of getting it lower, or making a civicclass similar to the mechanic in the Alexander the Great scenario, that means applying it here would mean id need probably a city counter, that would allow a constantly better civic, that would help lower the weariness (5 civics, the first would not alter the weariness, the last one would eliminate it) Or the civs capital ruins would provide a stockable -10% to weariness option along with the mana.
But this way i would probably need to reconsider the way of building the cities, if i would have the civ specific buildings act as unique features. Maybe have the "regular" ruins near "unique ruins" and make the unique ruins along with the lost palaces a regular harvestable resource.

Its fantastic to see how many people got interested in this idea of mine and how many people would be willing to help. Thomas.berubeg and Vehem, when i get that far, i will definitely remember you offering to help :)
 
An idea i had for one of the WH mods civs (lizardmen) was that they cannot build settlers, but instead have a powerful mage unit that can rebuild city ruins.

perhaps if this becomes a scenario you could use a similar mechanic and stop settelrs from being abel to 'found' new cities but rather 'rebuild' the ruins of old ones. this way you could control the expansion of surviving civs.
 
An idea i had for one of the WH mods civs (lizardmen) was that they cannot build settlers, but instead have a powerful mage unit that can rebuild city ruins.

perhaps if this becomes a scenario you could use a similar mechanic and stop settelrs from being abel to 'found' new cities but rather 'rebuild' the ruins of old ones. this way you could control the expansion of surviving civs.

Thats precisely the way I had it in mind.:)
 
I thought of an idea for the lanun. a completly OO dependant civ (if possible, only water cities, who send pirates out for the sole purpose of capturing slaves for the Overlords.

Bhall's second in command is Brigid the Shining, and she is imprisoned in the Northern wastes. it'd be interesting to have a fully healed from her fall bhall taking on Brigid (but we'de have to see what the mechanic kael and co think up for Brigid.

It'd be really hard for Hyborem to destroy Perpentach: at his death, he transfers his mind to a new body, so i can see the belseraph surviving, maybe as something similar to the gypsies of Europe.

actually, now that i think of it, the belseraph could just be an event civ (refered to only in events, with no actual presence in the game aside for some units given (freaks, or the like)

something like:

A large nomad Carnival has entered [CITY]. at it's head is a man, who our mages say is a powerful mind archmage. what should we do?


What civs are you planning on having playable?
 
Personally I would put in the following:

Good

Elohim (They do have monks who speacalize in killing demons...)
Bannor (They're very powerful, and too are experienced in demon killing)
Kuriorates (Perhaps not Cardith but Eubrates could be their leader)
The Luchurip have descended to the underhome, along with the Khazad
The Malakim were among the first to fall as the deserts became burning sands

Neutral

Ljosalfar (Thessa leads the Elves in there hidden glades)
Amurites (Their magical prowess has made them slaves to the Infernals. They start as vassals of Hyborem)
Cassiel was executed by Hyborem early in the invasion
The Hippus are now merely mercenaries, and not an organized group
Lanun (Now led by Hastur, the Lanun are mindless slaves of the overlords, probably evil)
Sidar (They have managed to stay hidden)

Evil
Xienwolf's idea for Balseraphs
Calabim are disbanded, vampires work for food
The Clan (They have thrived with Bhall's help)
The Doviello are dead, there tundras destroyed
The Illians are now in Mulcrarn's hell where they have revived their master
Sheaim (Led by Os- Gabella, they are willing vassals of the Infernal)
Svaralfar (Esus hides them, and they have gotten over their strife with the Ljosalfar to keep the elven race alive)
 
I think it would be cool for a few Luonnatar to have survived, although Grigori society as a whole and Cassiel probably couldn't have made it. After all, the Luonnatar's faith in The One protects them from both arcane and divine magic, and they have managed to walk away from divine fire unharmed in th past; presumably, the most faithful of the Luonnatar could not be harmed by the powers of hell.

I actually thought it might be cool for refugees of the the fallen Elohim and Grigori civilizations to come together to form the most "Good" civilization in history, devoted to keeping themselves pure, helping others, and serving only The One, perhaps under the leadership of a Luonnatar (I was thinking it might be interesting to give the good leader a dark past though, like making him a child of a profane who was born with the Stigmata and fated to become a powerful dark sorcerer, but then adopted by a Luonnatar and raised to turn against his dark nature and reject magic). I've always assumed that the Elohim and the Grigori got along pretty well, and that Immanuel Logos (who abandoned his goddess to serve those in need, regardless of their faith) was probably greatly admired by Cassiel. Once the Holy Sites that the Gods entrusted to the Elohim are destroyed, it seems like what religious differences they did have would greatly diminish.



I tend to assume that the Age of Despair would come after the Bannor became corrupt, and that in thier fallen state they could not have withstood Hell's onslaught.

It might be interesting to have Eurabatres raging about creation on his own, but I'm not entirely sure that most of his society would have made it. He could have protected some of them though.


The initial summary already states that the Dwarven civs both withdrew, but were then destroyed.

I'm not sure there would be any hidden glades left for the Ljosalfar to hide in. I don't think that Esus could hide the Svartalfar either, but perhaps they could use their skill in deception to gain the protection of some other civ (perhaps triking the Sheaim into thinking they are loyal to them and gaining protection)

I'm not sure all the Amurites would be enslaved by demons; Govannon or Dain might be leading a small group of mages that try to serve the good.

I don't think that the Hippus could hold together either, but again remnants of them may remain and join other civs (perhaps though events)

I'd say that the Lanun should probably be under Hannah the Irin (Falamar is too good-natured), who is now clearly evil and under the control of the overlords. Hastur still shouldn't be in control of Danalin's dreams, but they should be truly dark. Hmm..should Hemah still be around (possibly leading the civ?), or would the creations of his sleeping mind (the overlords) outlive him?

I'm not so sure there is anywhere left for even the Sidar to hide, but possibly.

Perpentach himself at least should still be around. It would be interestong if he randomly switched sides rather frequently. Perhaps he is losing what control over his mind that he has, so control over his body passess back and forth between the different minds it contains (evil Kyorlin, good Kyorlin, Gastrius, followers of Sirona). Perhaps he should just be one unit that cannot be deleted and often randomly switches civs.


The calabim would be in trouble, if they are still alive.

The Clan should be doing OK (not necessarily thriving). If Brigit is in the game it would be interesting to have a good Orkish faction split off that is devoted to her (perhaps under Rantine? He doesn't seem nearly as evil as most orks)


I doubt that the Doviello would survive.


It would still be more interesting if the (re-)Deified Auric Ulvin was still in creation actively trying to return the world to the Age of Ice. I think that the greatest threat to evil in this age should be other kinds of evil.


Sheaim would be allied with or vassals to Infernals





Overall I think that it might be better for most of the civs to not be present, but to create one or two new civs founded by the refugees from other civs.
 
I agree with magister about his last comment, as well as what he said about rantine.

However, i say we wait until we know more about Kylorin and the godslayer. what happened to him after the age of ice?
 
I think the Hippus should be hirable with a mercenary system similar to the one in Dragonia II, offering some elite cavalry to aid you in your fight, but you may also see some on the side of your enemy (and possibly have a chance to steal them by offering a higher price for their services).
 
I dont really see how the hippus would survive in a hellish enviroment without huge cultural changes. horses can't survive in hell, right? (and riding nightmare, well... )
 
Even if not for the Hippus, I would still like to see a mercenary system, since I imagine there would be a lot of survivors offering their services to whomever will give them a slice of bread and shelter for the night. This would be a good way to explain how the good guys where teamed up with vampires or previously evil characters (though you may have to sacrifice population instead of gold for the vampires).

Also, I doubt many, if any, of the previous civilization will have survived. It would mainly be just groups in who happened to be in the same area joining up, meaning that most civilization would just be Eastern Survivors, Wester Survivors, etc., with their races determined by who previously in habited that area (those groups who survive in areas where there where previously great forests would be mainly elves).
 
Spoiler :
Yeah, the big history doc thats in the mod makes a point of specifiying that the labels of good/neutral/evil are applied by men. In general the gods to fall into some camps (Nantosuelta and Sucellus are very close) and there is definitly a set of gods that agree with Agares that creation is a prison and they should retake (by force if nessesary) heaven to pursue their agenda. Now what that agenda would be differs from god to god.

Mulcarn was said to have the highest hell, meaning he is the least evil of the evil gods and his hell the most hospitalable (assuming you packed your thermal underwear) and his purpose is largely unchanged from what it was. He gets hates humanity because they are such a powerful agent of change and chaos. So in mens eyes he is evil, and he does side with Agares. But he would be as likely to fight Bhall and Camulos as he would be to fight some of the non-evil gods.

But the labeling of the gods of neutrality and good is a completly man made function. All of those gods would think that they are pursueing their divine purpose and wouldn't see any difference in the labels. the only real difference is some deal more directly with benifiting mankind and the others tasks really don't have much to do with humanity (Arawn being the best example). So from a divine perspective its better to say that their are only 2 groups of gods, those that have fallen and those that haven't.



Kael has confirmed that Mulcarn was the least evil of the evil gods, and that he is opposed to some of the other evil gods as much as to some of the good ones. He was allied with Agares, but it seems like he would really dislike Bhall, Camulos, and Mammon (it is mostly mind that makes men change the world so much), and I don't see him having a particularly strong affinity for Ceridwen, Aeron, or Esus either. He probably gets along better with Junil, because of his unyielding, unchanging traditions and rituals.

Although Hyborem himself is an angel of Agares (whom Mulcarn likes), I see Bhall and Camulos as being very important in the age of despair and creation as having become very chaotic. He would definitely oppose this, and so might even be seen as a Good god in this age (deities alignments are given to them by men after all), as he would give them rest from the tortures of hell (although he might then permanently freeze them).

So yeah, like I said earlier Mulcarn would be the most likely savior of this age, like Kyorlin was when he was the bad guy. Oh, he should definitely not follow the Overlords, as they are really the most chaotic of all the religions. Bringing back the White hand would be better. He should oppose both AV and OO strongly (although he like Agares, he hates Bhall, and while he probably doesn't have a problem with Danalin he would have no love for Hastur, or for the ever changing creations of Hemah's mind)
 
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