[BTS] BOTM 172: Saladin, Immortal: First Spoiler: 1AD

[DynamicSpirit]

BOTM 172: Saladin, Immortal.. First Spoiler

Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD!

Did you play adventurer, or were you brave and took contender? Where did you settle? Some people commented in the pre-game discussion that the start area looked unfavourable. How did you find the area? What did you do with the spy?

Oh, and ... have you lost yet?

Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 172, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER

• You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
• You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

• Please do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
• Please do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
• Please do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD (Iron is OK, coal and oil are not)
• Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games

 

[Berolsaurus]

Not as much to report as the last game. I went adventurer class and got the free worker. Unfortunately the tech made it so the worker couldn't do much for me but build roads

I ended up sip, thinking I could use the water tile to start and get 2 food and 2 gold, but wait! I don't have sailing!

I ended up getting two cities down along with my starting city for a total of three. After that all land was taken up with Germany and Russia at my doorstep.

Russia seemed ready to pounce as I quickly fell behind in science and couldn't settle anymore.

What did everyone else do? I felt unsure of where to settle, what techs to start with and how best to use my worker. My lack of skill is also a problem as I can see my doom on the horizon

 

[Pangaea]

This game felt awful, absolutely awful. Okay, it wasn't helped by barbs somehow getting in and wrecking my stuff despite the land being very crowded, which led to me researching bloody archery. When I was invested into that, ofc the barbs disappeared (managed to kill them with a horde of warriors) and was never seen again. So I got Pottery damn late, and everything was at least 20 turns off the pace due to that.

Close to 1AD I finally got Aesthetics and was able to get Alpha and a load of other stuff. Oh, we have Horses and Iron. Well that's nice. Would probably be good to know 1500 years earlier. I settled 2 east btw, on the plains hill. No more food in the fog which was a pain, but I didn't see any other good spots. Until one turn later when I saw the great spot to the NE. Argh! That became the 2nd city, despite Stalin already having settled in my face.

Due to lack of techs it also became a problem with what to build. Pretty soon I ran out of buildings, so I was down to building workers, settlers or units. Actually had to delete some of the stuff I made along the way to try to keep costs down. Pottery helped the situation as I spammed cottages, but I would still only break even at 20%. Bit later again and Writing is in, and I can get up some Madrassas and run scientists. AIs were already running utterly amok, both in tech, size and warfare. War broke out between HC, Stalin and Wang. Lots of "join our war" demands, so diplo is a bit of a mess too. Buddhism spread to me early, and for once I just adopted it right away for happiness. Cities were growing out of control anyway. And I was working cottages instead of food in the great spot to the NE. I was so desperate for commerce that I worked 1-food coast and even the 1-food 1-commerce jungled dye at some points. Basically any commerce that could be worked, I worked it.

The land is super-crowded and everybody are growing fast. Heck, even the barbs are advanced One city had 7 archers in it, protected by walls and cultural defence. Don't often see that, never mind way before 1AD. Frederick still took the city. I was ahead in the queue I guess. I saw a horde of units from 3 different civs outside the city.

The French got onto the island very early, and by 1AD it has at least 2 barb cities. Suppose the French will get it soon, and grow even more wildly. Zara is furthest ahead. Think he got the Oracle dang early (Metal Casting, I think), and got frickin' Hagia Sophia in 200BC or thereabouts. AP in 100BC. I voted for him. Nice to have at least one friend. Oh, and he got Feudalism in 25AD. That was a nice stopping point as I got some more techs in trade. Did well there at least, I think. Had to give Zara Currency for Monarchy, but with Currency I also saw the AIs had a pile of gold stashed up, so I got a good deal of that. Both from Zara and Wang. Around 500 combined I think. So that will allow me to tech for a little while, despite the horrid economy.

I'm sure it should be possible to find a win here now, since we have access to iron and horses (hopefully not a too bad spoiler for others). Since it's already so late it may be best to sit back and screw people with Cuirs, as I'm not sure how effective for instance HAs will be at this point. Feudalism will probably go around in the near future anyway, the way these guys are teching hard and having huge capitals.

Oh well, I have 7 cities by 1AD, an Academy in the capital (thought about putting it in the river/cottage spot further NE) and Zara has spread Buddhism to 6 of the 7 cities (it has 43% world coverage). But to be honest, I have very little motivation to keep playing this game, and may just hand it in right now.

Edit: Oh yeah, the Great Spy. I've used him for scouting up to now. With Alpha online I should probably get out some spies and pop him in Ethiopia. But like I said, I have little motivation to continue.

 

[Anatoly]

So, I´m joining the club of boxed Saladins have only 3 city + 2 I took from stalin, problem is that everybody else is way too advanced in terms of technology, land and soldiers...so only hope for me is keeping step with AI teching and kill ´em all but more likely they will kill me...what surprised me is that when I started war with S., Zara on his own give me some tech (I don´t remember wich one)...that was first time when AI give me something

Eh, and everybody thinks that I´m small and no threat to them

 

[Pangaea]

So, I´m joining the club of boxed Saladins

Schrödinger's Sal

I got 7 cities at least, surely helped by having settled to the east (we couldn't know the map was that crowded ofc, nor in which direction made sense to settle given the context). I've stupidly continued the game, but can't mention here what has happened. It looks rough, Zara is going nuts with everything, but I'm still in the game. *knock-on-wood*

Had to check Zara, whether I misremembered his traits -- could almost swear he has triple IND in this game

Good luck @Anatoly, hope you find a way to a win.

@Berolsaurus: Not sure what I would have done with a worker on T0, but probably not much else to do than build roads until the first tech is in. Due to all the forest (and jungle!) you're very limited in what the worker can do until BW. But with a free worker from the start, you have a theoretical 11-15 turn headstart, so it should help a little.

As mentioned I got intro trouble with barbs, despite fogbusting and the crowded map with heaps of AI scouts about, and lost the mine and felt like I had to tech Archery. Ironically, the latter probably hurt me more than the barbs themselves. But what I did with the worker, after improving the lone deer and hill, was to chop into settlers and workers. And since I had next to nothing to build due to lacking so many techs, I ended up with quite some workers relative to what I usually have.

A general tip for crowded maps is to try to settle in a pattern that locks off an area that you can backfill later. Not so easy without being Creative, but it sort of worked for me here. I settled NE first, and later to the west. Yet later I placed more cities "behind", like SW and S. Also managed to squeeze a city in the SE, that Stalin didn't grab. Shortly after I lost the deer to his city, but managed to get it back in reasonable time after chopping out a monument. Had intended to put a city to the NW on top of the deer there, to grab the fish (which otherwise was 'dead'). But before the settler could get there, Frederick's borders expanded to swallow the deer. Maybe just as good, as the city would have been swarmed in his culture anyway.

Actually took a very rare risk here and loaded a previous save to take a screenshot. Hit Pause instantly to prevent misclicks. My game can't possibly be competitive givne how horrible it went up to 1AD, so use it for what it is. Maybe it will still help to show the settling pattern.

Spoiler :

I settled 2E on the PH, which after border expansion to grab the unimproved deer (4-yield), got out a worker in 11 turns. Soon after the warrior noticed the fantastic spot a little further NE, which is where city #2 went, despite Stalin already having settled in my face. I've actually stolen all his food here Third city went further north, for a really good cottage spot, which would be crucial here. Think I built a monument first in both cities (or very soon, maybe after a unit), to expand borders asap and build up some culture in the tiles (and to grab the rice - or was that jungled? I don't remember now). Fourth city went to the west, in an attempt to lock off the area. Maybe that should have been done sooner due to the silver, as I ran into heaps of happiness issues. But at the time I felt it was super-important to grab those spots to the NE, as otherwise either Stalin or Frederick would get them, and totally screw me over. Once that was done, and the monument in Silver-ville expanded borders, the rest was "safe". It cost a ton in maintenance, but I didn't have much else to do than workers and settlers, so I built those two cities in the south/south-west. Then later, the failed deer NW settler grabbed that SE spot close to Stalin's deer.

In these crowded maps, which happen ALL THE BLOODY TIME on DEITY, it's very important to get to 6 cities, even if some of them are crap. That way you can get up Oxford (on Standard size, requiring 6 universities), and hopefully manage to get to Lib first and make a stab at them with Cuirs or Steel. It's sort of the same here. Some of these cities aren't very good, but they have food, and that's all that matters.

As you can see I have cottaged heavily, even on non-riverside grassland (and plains riverside). Every bit of commerce helped, when I was struggling along with +6 gold or something at 0% pre-Pottery, and even for a long time after cottages came into effect.

What is extra tricky on these very food-rich maps, especially on high difficulties, is that the AI are very good to grow big cities then. They get Hered. Rule and pack defenders into the cities, grow the cities large, and take off tech-wise, helped by pretty hefty bonuses. The human simply can't keep up (and immortal AIs also start with a free worker, giving them a 15-turn head start), so we need to use intelligent tech trading to try to catch up. Usually that means Aesthetics to get Alpha, and then try to barter as best you can. Get some techs, trade those to other AIs next turn. Doesn't always work, but it's the general idea. Then haul ass to Currency ASAP to save the economy. Which you can then usually use to get slightly cheaper techs like Monarchy and various backfills, and ofc sell cheap techs for gold.

This is a pretty tough map, though, the map-maker was certainly right in that warning, so for people not used to immortal it's totally understandable to get into trouble. I did myself as you can see, and am not sure how things will pan out. Nor if I actually finish the thing.

 

[Berolsaurus]

Well thanks for the tips. Have to keep learning definitely. I settled my 2 cities much as you did along the coast, to the S and SW and was boxed in before I got more. Seems your plan to settle inland first to block the Germans and Russians was a much better plan.

 

[lymond]

Ha ha..crazy game for me. I did something unusual when copper did not appear. I went IW. For one, I was stealing workers from Stalin. Once IW was in I noticed that most AIs did not seem to have metals. I think HC did.

Settled 2E...not extra stuff..but at least PH. First city just NE of Mecca (on PH too I think) as a launch pad to Russia. Not bad city either. One deer was cutoff by Stalin's second city, but no matter as I planned to end him.

Ofc, iron was not exactly nearby. I'd settled a city up near Fred for fish/deer/silver..then grabbed the iron down S. AT least with free worker and stolen workers, and TW start, I had roads generally in place for cities and resource.

A few swords took out Stalin, netting me four of his cities. I was pizzing HC off each time I dow'd Stalin..this was come back on me later..ha

Fred had no iron so I figured I'd get some stuff from him. He''d settled just N of Mecca on his borders. Had some swords, couple of spears for his chariots, and some cats at this point. Took that N city, but it was slow moving to the next city which had a lot of archers and tons of chariots roaming around.

HC had been at war with Wang, but made peace at some point and went immediately fist mode on me. Now I figured I was likely a target, but I was not paying close enough attention as I was focused on Fred. War horns blared with a nice stack of Incan soldiers right near Moscow. Yikes...I think I had a spear or axe in Moscow. Good thing is a had some growth going in Scow and adjacent cities. So hard whipped in Moscow a couple of turns, same for adjacent cities. Sending some axes and cats down the roads to Moscow. So second turn he stands next to Moscow. I hard whip again in Moscow and a chariot arrives as well from the seafood city I'd settled due S of Moscow. That turn, I slammed a cat or two into his stack. Can't remember if I hit him that turn with traveling units, but was able to move one or two into Moscow. Next turn, boom boom boom..I was left with only an almost 0 health spear in Moscow ..ha. My en route units clean up the rest of his remaining injured stack.

So I took two cities from Fred, and at this point with anger stuff and the not so good overall tech situation, I peaced out with him for quite a few tech including the much desired Calendar.

I plan to focus attention on HC in the early ADs hopefully taking lots of his stuff and maybe some tech. No one has Feud as of yet, and HC does not have Monarchy yet, but he does have metals and cats.

Zara is going bonkers as usual. Tech situation is not great..what teching IW will do to ya..but at 1AD I have 11 or 12 cities with probably a couple of more soon. Basically all my land is filled out, plus all former Russia, and a nibble on Germany. Mecca is getting cottages going finally, so hopefully things will ramp up a bit and I can maneuver the tech situation some in the future. Not sure Camels will have much action here. Zara will have Oromos by the time I ever get Guilds.

Not sure where I want to take the game but kinda had itch for warfare this game.

other notes:

1) not too much problem with barbs at all. Had land busted well, except for this one darn warrior in the SW. I danced around him a few turns, but then he killed 3 of my warriors...ha. Barb had killed an AI scout or two and at one point was was a 3C promo. He killed one of my warriors on forest and the barb was not at full strength..just bad luck. 4th warrior took care of him. certainly a waste but Mecca could produce warriors in 1 or two turn quite early.

2) Everyone is Bud except HC. I adopted Bud on Zara's friendly request at one point.

3) No wonders..will just have to capture them

4) economy was stifled for quite some time in BCs during and after taking out Russia...even with silver and gems working.

5) I'd really planned to take out Germany, but HC DOW just made that complicated, as I had to split resources on two opposite fronts. Getting the tech from him was indeed a benefit at least...and pushing him off my borders.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I settled SE of the dye and have 6 cities with 44 pop. Score is 593 (4th), with Zara way ahead of everybody else with 1002 points and 10 cities. Mecca will emphasize cottages with the nice NE city focusing on hammers. I tried for Stonehenge for free monuments, but failed. I also tried for GLH but lost that, too. DeGaulle beat me to circumnav in 775 BC and has two cities on the island, where there are also a fair number of barbs. I have a settler heading for the furs/seafood site up north that will arrive in 8 turns, and I'm hoping to grab another spot or two before France does. Yeah, teching has been hard. I'll have Currency in 6 turns but don't have Aesth, MC, or HBR. I got Alphabet in 475 BC and got some good trading mileage out of it.

I like games where I have to struggle for a win, and this one is certainly holding my interest. I've never gotten the hang of early warring, but am pretty good at grinding it out in the longer run. Thanks, DS, I'm really enjoying this!

 

[MarleysGh0st]

I settled on the pigs, then managed to build four more cities before being boxed in. (The last of those squeezed into a less than desirable spot, after Stalin grabbed the spot I wanted, first.)

I declared war on Stalin in 325 BC and at 1 AD I've just taken a second city of his. The gold from that capture is vital, because otherwise I'm running a deficit at 0% science.

The Great Spy has scouted the entire continent and is now scouting Stalin's cities. With my current techs, his only other option is starting a golden age. With his scouting and a couple workboats, I've rounded the island and gained the circumnavigation bonus. That's nice, but I'm sure one of the AI will settle it before I have the chance. For now, my goal is to try to deal with Stalin, while the other AI are indifferent to me. They have a huge tech lead, likely to grow ever wider. My swords and spears can beat Stalin's horde of chariots, but he might get horse archers at any time.

Oh, yeah, I took the Adventurer Save. I think it's brave enough just trying this game at all, since one little worker doesn't seem like a fair exchange for the usual two lower levels of difficulty we get with Adventurer.

 

[Kaitzilla]

On 1AD I've got 8 cities and a -14 per turn deficit.
Working on Currency by building , but the economic problems are very irritating even with the Great Lighthouse.

A huge war against Germany should help.
Just have to keep an eye on Stalin.
Got Friendly with Zara by adopting his religion and gifting him a city close enough to his capital to get the Liberate bonus, so I should be able to trade monopoly techs with him.

Gambled a bit with running Priests to get a Great Scientist faster.
80% chance and it worked out for a Math bulb and not a Theology bulb.

A crazy tight continent!
After BW teched Animal Husbandry->Writing. Then Fishing-> Pottery. Then Agriculture.
There just wasn't enough commerce, and the border push was more important than farms.

 

[pomthom]

What a nightmare start

Challenging map @DynamicSpirit !! Definitely above normal Immortal level in my opinion. I'm rusty and was this close of rage quitting a few times

I settled on the Pigs for reasons detailed in the opening thread. Had incredible ill-luck with barbs during the land grab phase which wasted a lot of my early production and the result was that I got only 4 cities before getting boxed in by Freddy and Stalin. However that may have been a blessing (in part at least) because treasury management is brutal on this map and the 4 cities at least kept the maintenance to an acceptable level once foreign trade routes kicked in.

Given that I had the Silver in my cap BFC and had Marble + plenty of forest I decided to gamble on Oracling MC to use as trade chip to get Alpha from Zara and unlock Forges to help with happiness. It paid off and allowed me to stay more or less on par technologically with the AI (@Kaitzilla very nice touch liberating a city to Zara to get to Friendly, such a SGOTM move ) . I got AH at that point which I had avoided thanks to settling on Pigs and that revealed the Horses - I immediately decide to rush HBR to spam HA with forests and whipping to get back that land I missed out on earlier, Stalin being my main target. I tech it by the skin of my teeth running scientists, building , prioritising tiles with everywhere I can... A few turns before getting HBR, Stalin starts plotting.. I scout Stalin with the GSpy and don't see any distinctive SoD so I relax thinking maybe I'm not the target, I try to see if I can bribe anyone to DoW him but no luck. I finally get HBR and start on my HAs and lo and behold Stalin bloody DoWs me......... But the reason I relaxed was that I didn't see a SoD and that's because there wasn't any so in fact whipping a protective Archer or 2 allows me to handle his attacking forces. Then I retaliate with HAs and manage to capture his city settled just South of me, on the Iron. Unfortunately I lose some by attacking his next city too soon but I regroup and now I've captured 2 more cities and the rest shouldn't be a problem I imagine (some AI is giving him metal which is annoying but there's no chance he gets Pikemen or LBs anytime soon). That will land me ~10 cities which is a much more comfortable situation. I could probably push on my HAs to the Inca or something, will see.

Only thing missing now is bloody Currency and that is not going to be easy. I decided not to go for it because Zara already tech'd it and went for CoL instead to trade for it + hoping I'd get a GS to help boost my research but alas I've just landed a GProphet from Oracle pollution . Settled him in my cap to help with

I'm exploring the shores of the other continent with a Trireme since one of the AI already circumnavigated the map - not sure what to make of it yet but there's quite a bit of land. Anyone with the GLH should probably look into that chop-chop.

If I survive bankruptcy, I will most likely Lib MT and wipe the map with Cuirs

 

[pomthom]

Ha ha..crazy game for me. I did something unusual when copper did not appear. I went IW. For one, I was stealing workers from Stalin. Once IW was in I noticed that most AIs did not seem to have metals. I think HC did.

Settled 2E...not extra stuff..but at least PH. First city just NE of Mecca (on PH too I think) as a launch pad to Russia. Not bad city either. One deer was cutoff by Stalin's second city, but no matter as I planned to end him.

Ofc, iron was not exactly nearby. I'd settled a city up near Fred for fish/deer/silver..then grabbed the iron down S. AT least with free worker and stolen workers, and TW start, I had roads generally in place for cities and resource.

A few swords took out Stalin, netting me four of his cities. I was pizzing HC off each time I dow'd Stalin..this was come back on me later..ha

Fred had no iron so I figured I'd get some stuff from him. He''d settled just N of Mecca on his borders. Had some swords, couple of spears for his chariots, and some cats at this point. Took that N city, but it was slow moving to the next city which had a lot of archers and tons of chariots roaming around.

HC had been at war with Wang, but made peace at some point and went immediately fist mode on me. Now I figured I was likely a target, but I was not paying close enough attention as I was focused on Fred. War horns blared with a nice stack of Incan soldiers right near Moscow. Yikes...I think I had a spear or axe in Moscow. Good thing is a had some growth going in Scow and adjacent cities. So hard whipped in Moscow a couple of turns, same for adjacent cities. Sending some axes and cats down the roads to Moscow. So second turn he stands next to Moscow. I hard whip again in Moscow and a chariot arrives as well from the seafood city I'd settled due S of Moscow. That turn, I slammed a cat or two into his stack. Can't remember if I hit him that turn with traveling units, but was able to move one or two into Moscow. Next turn, boom boom boom..I was left with only an almost 0 health spear in Moscow ..ha. My en route units clean up the rest of his remaining injured stack.

So I took two cities from Fred, and at this point with anger stuff and the not so good overall tech situation, I peaced out with him for quite a few tech including the much desired Calendar.

I plan to focus attention on HC in the early ADs hopefully taking lots of his stuff and maybe some tech. No one has Feud as of yet, and HC does not have Monarchy yet, but he does have metals and cats.

Zara is going bonkers as usual. Tech situation is not great..what teching IW will do to ya..but at 1AD I have 11 or 12 cities with probably a couple of more soon. Basically all my land is filled out, plus all former Russia, and a nibble on Germany. Mecca is getting cottages going finally, so hopefully things will ramp up a bit and I can maneuver the tech situation some in the future. Not sure Camels will have much action here. Zara will have Oromos by the time I ever get Guilds.

Not sure where I want to take the game but kinda had itch for warfare this game.

other notes:

1) not too much problem with barbs at all. Had land busted well, except for this one darn warrior in the SW. I danced around him a few turns, but then he killed 3 of my warriors...ha. Barb had killed an AI scout or two and at one point was was a 3C promo. He killed one of my warriors on forest and the barb was not at full strength..just bad luck. 4th warrior took care of him. certainly a waste but Mecca could produce warriors in 1 or two turn quite early.

2) Everyone is Bud except HC. I adopted Bud on Zara's friendly request at one point.

3) No wonders..will just have to capture them

4) economy was stifled for quite some time in BCs during and after taking out Russia...even with silver and gems working.

5) I'd really planned to take out Germany, but HC DOW just made that complicated, as I had to split resources on two opposite fronts. Getting the tech from him was indeed a benefit at least...and pushing him off my borders.

Looks like a very good start mate, a lot done before the ADs. 11/12 cities is massive you can't go wrong once you have Currency (which you might have already?)

 

[shakabrade]

I settled to get two Deers first as food is mama in civ. Settled furs/cow as 2nd and silver as 3rd as commerce is very scarce on the map. I was not sure what to do from the beginning and my play was not focused. Even researched Archery for defense while clueless. But what I did right was bulbing Maths and researching Aesthetics for Alpha (although I waited Zara at least 10 turns to get Alpha). And then I put 4 chops into Parthenon for failgold. That carried me to Construction and Currency and I also got trade opportunities to get even more gold. Basically, I am in the deficit for the whole game and the most of the research was either from specialists or building research. Money is only from capturing from this point on. Mids are on the opposite side of the map again... I see some strikes on the way.
And, also, I explored. That is why in 1AD I have these fellas:

Spoiler :

I still wasn't so sure what to do with them at this point. Space? Conquest? Domination? Well, I submitted the game already but I am acting like this because I didn't have a clue what to do at this point.

 

[jerza]

Well, this is my fist game on higher-than-Monarch difficulty, so I decided to tak the contender file to have all the fun

I settled on the hill 2E, sent GS scouting, built a worker and from then on I basically have no idea what I'm doing I founded 2nd city NE only to find out I will need the horses that are in the west - so a third city there. By that time (around 1450 BC) I was breaking even at 50% science and that was only the beginning The mistake I made in the previous BOTM was that I was not aggressive enough and didn't manage to take closest neighbor's capital early, so this time I went HBR and chopped/whipped so many HAs that soon I was breaking even at 0% The only thing that kept me running was money from the Russian cities I captured (3 including Moscow) or raised (1).
I converted to Buddhism as almost everyone I met (except for Russians and Inca) is Buddhist. Oh, and I settled the GS in my capital (after some 30 turns of scouting) because I had no better idea what to do with him.
Now it's 1 AD and when I look at the map, everything looks pretty well (way better that I expected - i thought I'd be dead by now ); but let's face the reality - I have no wonders, no GPP (I completely forgot about that ), barely breaking even at 10%, way behind in tech (just finishing my Madrasas), and Zara has twice as much both in score points and in power. And most of all, I still have no clue what to do next

Spoiler 1 AD :

 

[pomthom]

Well, this is my fist game on higher-than-Monarch difficulty, so I decided to tak the contender file to have all the fun

I settled on the hill 2E, sent GS scouting, built a worker and from then on I basically have no idea what I'm doing I founded 2nd city NE only to find out I will need the horses that are in the west - so a third city there. By that time (around 1450 BC) I was breaking even at 50% science and that was only the beginning The mistake I made in the previous BOTM was that I was not aggressive enough and didn't manage to take closest neighbor's capital early, so this time I went HBR and chopped/whipped so many HAs that soon I was breaking even at 0% The only thing that kept me running was money from the Russian cities I captured (3 including Moscow) or raised (1).
I converted to Buddhism as almost everyone I met (except for Russians and Inca) is Buddhist. Oh, and I settled the GS in my capital (after some 30 turns of scouting) because I had no better idea what to do with him.
Now it's 1 AD and when I look at the map, everything looks pretty well (way better that I expected - i thought I'd be dead by now ); but let's face the reality - I have no wonders, no GPP (I completely forgot about that ), barely breaking even at 10%, way behind in tech (just finishing my Madrasas), and Zara has twice as much both in score points and in power. And most of all, I still have no clue what to do next

Spoiler 1 AD :

View attachment 522008

You seem to be surviving just fine

You need Currency big time on this map so prioritise getting that if you dont have it already (your settled GSpy allows you to see what everyone is teching, use that information). Your cities are way too big for what seems to be poor tiles to work: you're not whipping enough
Don't know what to do? Imo continue chopping and whipping HAs like there's no tomorrow until your opponents get Engineering or Feudalism and get some GS running in all your cities with a Library. Did you raze some of Stalin's cities?

 

[lymond]

@jerza

1)

breaking even at 50% science

This is a very important point I want to get across to you. Your quote above. This is not something experienced players think about. It's not part of our lingo. It's either 0% or 100% for well into the game. I recommend you rid yourself of this idea that you need to keep the slider at X%. Instead, bank gold until you can fund a tech.

2) Why are you teching Monotheism?

3) I see from the GPP bar that you are not in the process of producing Great Scientists. (granted one may just have popped) But if what I'm seeing is true, you should be running as many scientists as you can. Plenty of food here.

4) Whip stuff. Lots of pop..few improvements. 3 pop that Madrassa in Pete's. then run scientists

5) Do you have foreign trade routes. I assume you do, but just making sure as not sure if you are connected via roads or Sailing.

6) Stalin should be dead...

Nothing wrong with razing crap cities.

yep, currency should be a priority one way or another

 

[pomthom]

Nothing wrong with razing crap cities.

In my experience it needs to be really, really, really crap to raze. Foreign trade routes + close to cap + plenty of surrounding forests is definitely worth it no? With Currency even more.

 

[jerza]

@lymond @pomthom
first thing I have to say is that I really appreciate all your comments as I'm used to playing on lower difficulties and I'm obviously missing MANY important aspects of the game which you consider absolutely basic

- not whipping enough: OK, will do I just had the impression that I'll go bankrupt if I whip too much (and make my cities too small)
- as many HAs as possible: again, I had the impression that I can't feed any more or I'll go bankrupt; I probably started too late with cottages, though
- razing a city: yes, I razed one (Yekaterinburg I think) because I was afraid I'll go bankrupt with yet another city
- science slider either 0% or 100%: this is a completely new concept for me, never heard of it before; are there any discussion/guides to get a grip on it or is it just as simple as you said ("bank gold until you can fund a tech")? anyway, it definitely makes a lot of sense
- why Monotheism: for organized religion, though that would help.. btw. the main point of Currency is the extra trade route or Market/Grocer? Probably all of it, right?
- GPP (Great Scietists): believe it or not, I completely forgot about that On lower difficulties I usually grab some early wonders and GPPs come naturally....
- do you have foreign trade routes: frankly, not sure will check and make sure I do
- Stalin should be dead: definitely... it became clear to me as soon as I closed the game and was uploading the screenshot here

Btw what is the trick with teching Aesthetics and trading it for Alpha, is it something that should be done regularly?
Also, should I focus my EP on the most advanced guy and try to steal techs from them?

One more questoin, do you happen to know of any guide/thread/YT video walkthrough that might help me in transition from Prince/Monarch to Emperor/Immortal?

Well, that is a lot of questions At least you have an idea how I feel playing on Immortal Thanks again

 

[pomthom]

Whipping: happy population must be seen as a resource, produced by food, to be used in 3 main ways 1) working strong improved tiles, 2) running scientists, 3) whipping into production. At any point if you're not doing 1) or 2) you should be doing 3) and generally to prepare for your next victim

Many units: although it's true that it can be a problem, I don't think it should be here. Units have a high turnover ratio anyway because they're to be consumed attacking cities which will in turn give you more production and commerce. But yes maintenance is a problem and for that you need Currency

Science slider: not much to it and it's not a game breaker but lymond is right, the main reason is that you're losing a few / because the slider rounds down your conversion when applying the percentages. But sometimes you need to do it to get a tech 1 turn sooner when low on cash

Mono: religion techs are heavily sought after by the AI so it is generally a waste to tech them yourself as you will very likely be able to trade for it. Common exceptions are Philosophy (needed for Lib and can be bulbed early by GS), when you're going for the Oracle or teching CoL (useful tech). Corollary is going for less popular techs (such as Aesthetics
) to maximise the chances to get a trade asset that no AI has

Currency: the extra trade route is very nice but no the main advantage is that you can build so any decent city can break even if it comes to it

Lymond actually had some good YT videos back in the day no idea of he kept it up but I guess you can ask him
For me and a lot of people the reference in Civ4 YT is Chris / AbsoluteZero. He is Deity level (although a bit rusty these days ) but you'll learn a lot regardless. I would suggest watching some old playthroughs on his channel

 

[lymond]

@jerza

ha..well, we been giving advice here in the report thread, but if you really want to learn to play better, I encourage you to spend more time in the Strategy & Tips forum here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ4-strategy-tips.155/

This fairly recent thread in S&T is a good example of guy trying to learn to play better...you may want to read it yourself and possibly do something similar:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/asking-for-your-advice-–-shadow-game-on-emperor.643219/

For YT vids, I'd say Lain and AZ are the best as far as learning some new things. Lain tends to be a bit more instructional, but AZ was the guy I learned the most from back in the day:

lain:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBiPHqnZ3mwIqtraltox6jg

AZ...he's actually been playing a bit more IV recently and live streaming it too:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgT_HmP4nlz5wECKOkIlj9Q

As for your questions/points:

1) Currency - While certainly arguments can be made, IMO Currency is the most important tech in the game. (and no..Markets are by no means a reason..I don't build them by the way). The trade routes are obviously one factor - the boost to overall commerce. The option to build wealth instead of something useless indeed has merit. But the most important thing is being able to trade techs for gold and resources for GPT.

2) Whipping...Has nothing to do with bankruptcy and neither does small cities. (population actually increases maintenance costs) Ideally most cities grow to work the cities specials. After initial expansion phase, the cap ideally starts working some cottages and running scientists for the first academy, and being whipped far less. All other cities can be whipped as needed.

3) Monotheism - Not sure what you thought it would help with. Mono is something you can always easily trade for. OR is nice if you are running a religion. I think what this boils down to is having a plan/strategy in terms of teching, as well as understand what the AIs tend to focus on tech wise. I suspect you do not use tech trading well.

4) Great Scientists - Generally you will get up a Library in your cap asap, and run two scientists there for an academy in you cap. Running scientists in other cities as much as you can is simply static beakers, but also leads to future GSs for bulb strategies later. So the sooner you do that not only do you improve your tech rate, but the amount of great people produced sooner, especially with the golden age you run later.

5) Early wonders - Relying on wonders for producing great people is very passive and very sub-optimal. But furthermore, just building wonders without resource bonus or IND trait does not make much sense. And even then, most wonders I use for fail gold anyway if I have any bonuses. Mids are always worth trying for if you have access to stone. GLH has no bonus, but is very powerful on certain maps.

6) Foreign trade routes are extremely important. The basically double your trade routes commerce - more if overseas. You should try to access them one way or another as soon after Writing as you can.

7) Aesthetics can be a good path on IMM+ to facilitate a trade for Alpha and other stuff since AIs tend not to prioritize it as much as Maths or Alpha. I don't always go that route as it may depend on other factors.

8) Primary purpose of EPs is focusing on a known good techer (think Mansa) in order to start seeing what they are teching. This knowledge can impact tech decisions and help facilitate tech trades. Tech stealing is another thing that is probably more dependent on if you happen to pop a Gspy.

Overall, my objective impression of your games leads me to assume that you need to learn some very basic mechanics of the game. I'd assume you likely still struggle quite a bit on Prince/Monarch. Just spending a bit more time in S&T and watching some vids and I guarantee you will start moving up levels quickly. It really boils down to having a completely knew perspective of this game.

edit: Oh..I meant to expand on the 0% and 100% thing. Pom is right in that there is a rounding issue in the game. Check this out in another game early on - after you settle your first city - by raising slider from 0% to 10% and then back to 0%. Notice the difference in GPT vs. BPT when you do this.

So, after you settle your first city is when you start deficit research, i.e., you start losing gold. This is when you start running 0% slider to bank gold to fund the next tech. Banking gold also helps fund expansion as well. You still have the 1bpt from palace, so you are making some, if small, progress toward whatever tech.

After Writing, you will start to build Libraries and run scientists which help even more. After Writing is also when you start hitting the bigger tech decisions...Aesths? Alpha? So running 0% for an extended to allows one to essentially delay the decision, finish Libraries, bank gold, continue expanding. Then use that gold once library(ies) are in to run 100% with the beaker multipliers are in place, choosing the tech that makes the most sense for your game.

A bit later one, the rounding issue basically disappears due to the beaker multipliers and specialists. Again, you can see this later by just checking the slider at 10%, 20%. In other words, there is a break-even point and you will start to see your bpts gained exceed your gpt lost. At that point you have more leeway on playing with the slider a bit, but 0%/100% deal never really loses value. But you will also have the ability to get large chunks of gold later too.