BOTM 73 - Final Spoiler

[Falabello]

Final score: 323K, I may have a chance for my first medal?

Impressive score, and I think you can expect to be among the first three !!!

 

[pomthom]

@Falabello
With what did you war against Hammurabi? Sounds like you didn't have enough siege or something. EDIT: comments in First Spoiler thread.

When and what did you Lib?


EDIT: lol didn't see your second post, thanks! I really focused on population while I was waiting for Dom...

 

[WastinTime]

Can someone post a screenshot of the donut center for those of us that never ventured there?

 

[jesusin]

after 1AD, I have only 1 religion!
So when I get a GProphet, I bulb Theo. I've never done that. Sadly Christianity is a 'stone' religion, so I plan to build only 3 temples + 1 cath in this religion (later I get stone from DeGaulle, so I quickly put out another 3+1)

I feel like the Theo bulb was a bit of a waste since I see I can conquer a few religions. But, since I did it, I figured I better build:
350 AD : The AP
375 AD : Hagia

While I'm wiping out Hammy, he bulbs Philo. Great! I get 3 religions from his cities AND I get him to give me part of Philo in trade for peace.

I capture a barb city way in the west and it gets a late judaism spread.

780 AD: very late Liberalism/Nationalism (I used to get this in the BC years IIRC) And even tho it's so late, I still choose not to go Free Speech just yet.

940 AD: Finally, since I've finished my missionaries, I choose FreeSpeech, Pacifism

1000 AD:

14 cities, 97 pop, only 7 workers.
6 religions! (I ignore judaism), so 5.
6 cathedrals
I've had 8 GP births plus the free Music artist.
I built 10 world wonders (Taj is coming soon) I captured Stonehenge, but that's meaningless.

Congratulations. Playing without the pig is a big handicap!

Let's compare our games, please. Are there any statistics that you would like to have from my game?
I'd like to know your final number of GPs and GAs. Also interesting would be your cpt at 1000AD and your accumulated culture so far and your GPPpt.

Although our games' start was quite different we have similar results at 1000AD:
- Same Liberalism date.
- 6 cathedrals each
- your game has 1 more GP popped
- your game has 4 more WW
- your game features 6 religions for my 4, but mine where acquired earlier so I guess my game had more cities infected and more temples.
- your game had much more cities but less pop (I guess you had been whipping a lot just before 1000AD).

What use did you have of the numberless cities you took at war?

A 5 turns difference is a lot. What was the main factor for it in your opinion?

Maybe we should post our 3 cities screenshots at 1000AD???

 

[Arabersimon]

I went for fastest conquest, and ended up with 1550 AD or something like that. I was very unhappy with how slow it was, so I replayed and got it to 300 AD, so quite an improvement, but it was ofc with knowing how the map looked. Wonder what the fastest conquest will be!

Using HA to take the whole map was np.

 

[pomthom]

300 AD is quite good, and fastest conquest will probably be zamint3 with ~650 AD iirc so (although second attempt )

I'm not a complete noob but conquering a standard sized map with just HAs is beyond me, even on Monarch (although I know it's possible)

 

[evil_spock]

Like zamint, 640 AD conquest but with 208k points . Could have been faster, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone got it earlier.

Standard horse archer rush. Hammu, Fred and Gandhi dead before ADs, but lack of money and confidence delayed the game.

 

[pomthom]

Impressive as well! I should try one of those out some day. When is you first attack date?

Mine was a construction war around 1 AD

 

[evil_spock]

When is you first attack date?

Aside from the early worker steal from Fred:

975 bc Hammurabi (Dead 225 bc)
700 bc Fred (Dead 200 bc
475 bc Gandhi (Dead 50 bc)

Basically I had two teams of horse archers, one for northern foes and one for southern who finally met at Byzantine lands.

I used representation (pyramids) to get feudalism, and luckily the AIs capitulated quite fast (except for Justy).

 

[WastinTime]

Congratulations. Playing without the pig is a big handicap!

Let's compare our games, please. Are there any statistics that you would like to have from my game?
I'd like to know your final number of GPs and GAs. Also interesting would be your cpt at 1000AD and your accumulated culture so far and your GPPpt.

Although our games' start was quite different we have similar results at 1000AD:
- Same Liberalism date.
- 6 cathedrals each
- your game has 1 more GP popped
- your game has 4 more WW
- your game features 6 religions for my 4, but mine where acquired earlier so I guess my game had more cities infected and more temples.
- your game had much more cities but less pop (I guess you had been whipping a lot just before 1000AD).

What use did you have of the numberless cities you took at war?

A 5 turns difference is a lot. What was the main factor for it in your opinion?

Maybe we should post our 3 cities screenshots at 1000AD???

thx. I will get around to posting those numbers when I find some time. Just a few quick answers.

you wrote;
"- your game had much more cities but less pop (I guess you had been whipping a lot just before 1000AD)."

Not at all. I did something strange. I had not been whipping at all due to early caste. switched to caste in 325 BC! and never looked back! I did that so I could make artists faster than my wonder cities could make non-artists. However, I had a very very late Pacifism switch, so given the fact that I somehow had more GP than you at 1000 AD (without Pacifism). That means I was probably running artists in so many places that I didn't grow (or whip). I think that explains my low pop.

numberless cities?
I think I only captured 2 barb cities and 4-5 Hammy cities. (which picked up 4 religions.) If you're going to bother building a HA army, that's like the minimum you'd capture. Any of those cities that had 6-8 spare food ran 4-5 artists for a Great Artist. There were sooo many forests on this map, so any other city could put out some missionaries/temples, then build wealth. I did screw up just one of the Hamm cities which could have made a 100% GArtist, but it was just too slow

5 turns:
I think the wonders had a lot to do with it. My cpt was looking so good in my capital, that I got lazy and didn't build the last cathedral or two there.

gtg, I'll load up my saves later for more details.

 

[WastinTime]

1000AD Stats:
8 great people,
7 world wonders,
2 national wonders,
750 culture per turn(useful),
106 great person points per turn,
temples, caths== 26,6

1000 AD comparison
9 (1 free) GP
12 World Wonders (1 captured useless one)
3 Nat wonders
1664 cpt (useful)
414 GPPpt
temples, caths= 28 , 7

 

[WastinTime]

jesusin, contender.
Cultural Victory 1430AD.
Multipliers 5-4-4,
bombs 3-6-8,
base cpt 175-165-115.
2GS for Academy and bulbing Education, GE used in Gage, useless GM, 17 GA bombed, total 21GP, two of them for free.

Challenger,
1380 AD
Multipliers 5 - 4.5- 3.5
bombs 0 - 4 - 9
GPro for Theo, 3 GP for golden ages, 13 GA bombs, total 17 GP (one free)

Just to make sure I understand your notation. I had 400% in my capital. That means my multiplier is 5, right?

I did a poor job of using my 6 religions. I could have had a 6 multiplier in the capital, but I realized that the capital didn't even need a single bomb, so I skipped them.

You crushed me in great people. It must have been that Pig. I would have thought my extra cities would have given me a GP boost. On top of that, I ran an extra golden age for +100% and I was ahead of you at 1000 AD. That's odd since I only screwed up one GP, so I could have had 17 generated, but nowhere near your 19.

Although...you did have 5 more turns than I did to generate GP

 

[Deckhand]

What is up with the lack of oil on the map? Was this edited by the mapmaker or a freaky result? Of course I didn't realize there wasn't any oil, so going for tanks was a complete waste. If there had been oil, Saladin would have paid dearly for his treachery, instead of my having to rush to get Mech Inf to stop him.

The only oil that appears in the donut map is if the centre region is jungle (iirc).

Donut maps:
Oil can appear in desert or jungle tiles.
There is a jungle/no jungle selection. If no jungle, then you will only get oil if desert is selected for the center.

Center Options: Hills, Peaks, Desert, Ocean, Standard ( = disc, not donut )

Spoiler :

I will need to consider these for a future BOTM.

 

[Deckhand]

1695 Domination.

Was delayed a bit when Saladin vassaled to Justinian in 1640 with my troops ready to capture 3 of his 5 remaining cities. It took me around 5 turns to heal and reposition my cavalry.
Was planning on Space, but dithered a lot deciding which victory to pursue.
Saw the center in 1575 when I got a map from Justinian. I figured others would be more effective at using Sid's plus I didn't have time - this was on 14Jan. So decided on Domination.
edit: oh yeah, Hammy went first and early, took two wars
Catapults and Mace > Germany
Catapults and Mace and Knights vs India; make peace; India peace vassals to Byzantium
Knights vs Arabia - unsuccessful
Knights > India and one Byz City
Cavalry vs Arabia; forced peace with Arabia Byz vassal; Cavalry > Arabia and one Byz City and Byz vassalizes to me

Perk of knowing other civ's research: Saw Justinian was teching Liberalism and finished it one turn before him. He then went after Economics, so I learned that one turn before him. (Took Rep w Lib as most expensive available tech).

I didn't remember about the oil limitations until I saw it in this thread.

Here is a screen shot of the center for WastinTime and those of you "that never ventured there".

 

[lymond]

Very nice games Zamint and Pom (looks like you may get Gold here unless some of the silent aces surprise)

I started without much of a plan - just taking as it comes - but knowing I would at least take out some neighbors (Fred and Hambone). For all I know I would go space. Focused on early GLH and Oracled something, but forget what - I think MC.

Once I took out Ham, Fred and Sal I saw all this land and just went..well Dom would be pretty nice. So I picked up Gandhi and Justy as vassals after taking 3 or so cities. (I fought Just twice as my initial attack razed a city and grabbed another but my HA army was getting a bit worn down and Just had some Spears roaming around, so I called for peace and some techs to gear back up. Often I just take ceasefires, but with the distance I knew it would take some time to reinforce and the techs were nice)

The big problem with my Dom game was not triggering the plan earlier. I really could have finished quite a bit earlier and had a much better score with developed newer cities. Hence, a lot of my cities were settled very late. My economy was more than fine to handle that much sooner. So I'm disappointed in my score but I guess the date is ok for Dom. (Hambone was easy going down, but Fred was a bit of a pain and war of attrition. He had a city with iron way up NW on the inner coast near Ghandhi so there was really no way to get rid of his Spear spam early on. Better early scouting would have helped and some sneaky HAs)

Anyway, 900AD Dom with like 216K score. (Entire warfare was with HAs but I don't know how many I built)

Happiness was not much of a problem for me since I was whipping it away and had HR soon enough. More happiness came later with vassals and a nice little Gem pop. If going for Space or something later, or Milking, I could see it being quite an issue.

Fun game!

(also, hats off to Wasted and the always great evilspock, and good to see all the new players here)

 

[Htadus]

I was planning for a space game but only had time to play upto 500 AD and extreamly bad economy. Submitted an incomplete game.

SIP and it seem I built a wb and then a worker. Then claimed the first city next to Hammy with copper, corn and wine in the BFC followed by city three sharing the corn and with copper in the BFC. From there it seem I built the SH in the wine city and expanded to 2 more cities before going on the war path. For a difference I chose to Oracle construction and also learned HBR for cat, Phant and HA war.

By 1AD Hammy was down to 1 city and got peace for about 4 techs including Monarchy and was taking cities from Fred. At 500 AD I was in the middle of another war against Sal too and had captured 6 of Freds 10 cities. That team would have continue north until he was down to 1 city and turn toward Gman.

The economy was in the hole but CH and Markets are available for whipping/chopping. Just discovered the only stone sighted so far and next to a barb city near French. I think I will play the game out to economic recovery and decide if it is worth finishing. The intended path to space was via communism but I have seen the sea food heaven image from Deckhand, so this may have been a experiment with sushi.

Thank you for the game. On to finishing the Joe WOTM next.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Challenger saved game, so I sent my initial Settler a bit southward (3 Clams didn't seem like enough of a capital with the Pig Resource gone). I later placed a Wonder City at the "in place location."


Two early Chariot rushes against the City of Babylon were repelled: first it was 11 Chariots versus 3 Bowmen and the first 3 Chariots died without making a scratch. I retreated to lick my wounds.

I came back again with 15 Chariots versus 5 Bowmen (2 of the Bowmen didn't have much in the way of Fortification bonus) but lost another 4 Chariots without scratching any Bowmen and I let Hammurabi keep his capital rather than risking losing my entire army without capturing the City.

I ended up heading further westward in search of easier prey and took out most of Saladin.

I later used Horse Archers against Justinian and Frederick, but I also got bogged down with Girlie Builder mode: I built nearly every Wonder in my Wonder City, with The Hanging Gardens being one exception and the other exceptions being those few Wonders that Gandhi beat me to building.

I built Oxford and was making a half-hearted attempt for Space, but the deadline was looming and I wouldn't have finished on time. I saw my chance with a late Apostolic Palace Victory and went for it, getting the Victory thanks to some random spreading of my State Religion to far-away AIs and some forced-spreading of my State Religion to some nearby AIs.

Gandhi was the Worst Enemy of DeGaulle, who was my only real friend at that point in the game, so I didn't want to gift Gandhi a City, and I'd been mean to so many of Gandhi's friends (-2 Diplo Attitude for declaring war on one of Gandhi's friends really adds up quickly) that he wasn't Opening Borders with me. Thus, I went to war with Gandhi and "accidentally" let him capture a City with my State Religion in it. He only brought Catapults , so I had to empty the City of defenders in order to give him a chance at capturing the City.


I didn't even think to go for Astronomy. Had I not gotten clarification that it was a doughnut map and had I instead thought that it was an Old World + New World type of map, I might have actually found the nice cache of Resources in the middle of the map. The islands looked intriguing on the Replay screen, but I assumed that they just consisted of junky land auto-created by the map script. I avoided Astronomy so much that one of the few late-game techs which I received in trade was Compass.

 

[jesusin]

Originally Posted by jesusin
1000AD Stats:
8 great people,
7 world wonders,
2 national wonders,
750 culture per turn(useful),
106 great person points per turn,
temples, caths== 26,6

1000 AD comparison
9 (1 free) GP
12 World Wonders (1 captured useless one)
3 Nat wonders
1664 cpt (useful)
414 GPPpt
temples, caths= 28 , 7

I've checked and it was me who had just whipped 60 pop just before 1000AD.
My 1200AD stats are more revealing:
1920 cpt
620 GA GPPpt

Just to make sure I understand your notation. I had 400% in my capital. That means my multiplier is 5, right?

Yes, that's right.

Originally Posted by jesusin
17 GA bombed, total 21GP, two of them for free.



13 GA bombs, total 17 GP (one free)

You crushed me in great people. It must have been that Pig. I would have thought my extra cities would have given me a GP boost. On top of that, I ran an extra golden age for +100% and I was ahead of you at 1000 AD. That's odd since I only screwed up one GP, so I could have had 17 generated, but nowhere near your 19.

Although...you did have 5 more turns than I did to generate GP

5 more turns == 2 more GA
1 screwed city == 1 more GA
Even so, I was one behind at 1000AD and there's yet one more to explain. I can't understand, especially since you had more cities. I configure all my auxiliary cities in order to help to pop more GAs, of course, but I think you do the same.



My feeling when comparing to your games is that my (very) early game is not bad, that my middle game has a lot to be improved and that my endgame is superb.

My feeling when comparing my games to new player's is that they don't report the things they should be reporting. They talk about the final battle at 1900AD, they talk about the religious situation of their neighbours... but they don't say a word about their bpt at 1000BC or about building Worker/WB first at T0...
I wish someone pointed out what I'm not paying attention to in the middle game.

 

[WastinTime]

I wish someone pointed out what I'm not paying attention to in the middle game.

No problemo.
When I played serious culture games ~5 years ago, I felt I had optimized my play as best as possible for a peaceful culture win. Peaceful being the key word. I preferred peaceful back then for all victory types.

Now I know that every game, even very early Religious games, must have a war component to be the best finish date possible. At a minimum, early worker steal(s). Culture games benefit greatly from an a early-mid-game war. This allowed me to build almost nothing but culture buildings in my 3 legendary. My 4th and 5th cities built my whole army and a settler or two, all missionaries, military police, etc. All (or almost all) workers should be captured.

 

[WastinTime]

My 1200AD stats are more revealing:
1920 cpt
620 GA GPPpt

1190 AD
2364 cpt (in 3 top cities)
493 GPPpt (entire empire, yes, I'm in a golden age too) (remember you probably had mercantilism)