Bottleneck Techs

[Hydromancerx]

You still can still leave most of the animal techs behind. Same goes for many of the nautical based techs. And to some extent even some of the art based techs too.

If you click on the Renaissance Lifestyle you can see the Camel Domestication is still open to research. Same goes for Mounted Archery.

Animal riding is in there however because of Armored Calvary which leads to Chivalry. So if you wanted to get there fast you could all the way until you reach Renaissance Lifestyle in which you would have to back research all those so you could get Chivalry.

Note this stuff is not new. Important Renaissance techs already required Chivalry. So there was no way to get pass the Renaissance without it. You just get it maybe a tech or two earlier. Such as instead of at Leadership causing you to back research, its now at Renaissance Lifestyle.

It is true before you could research gunpowder before Leadership. But only 1 one tech. As for Pikemen you can get them at Siege Warfare without knowing Animal Riding tech. And you can get Heavy Pikemen at Armor Crafting without knowing Animal Riding tech.

Equine domestication seems to be to be required for both however. Which is linked to Chariots and the Plough. However if you are in need of pikes it would be good to know of horses. Even if you don't have them.

Note these issues are less about the new gateway techs and more about your long standing complaint about the tech requirements. Even without the gateway techs its hard to get anywhere without Siege Warfare tech (which requires chariots).

 

[JosEPh_II]

Btw. a way to make the religion techs more useful to research, when you haven't got them first, couldn't you make them prerequisite for the religious buildings that you get from other techs? Right now any religion spreading to my lands is just another temple and sub-buildings waiting to be built. Very powerful stuff in a lot of instances, what with +5 food here and +5 production there, even though none of it is my state religion.

State religion has been and still is a stranglehold Civic. It's influence is far and wide reaching. But just because you use it does not mean that other religions won't be in your Empire even if you are a Myopic tyrant to your Religion of choice, ie the Need for a State religion thru the Emperor's eyes.

So to make every empire research a religion tech that has already been achieved (and Religious techs are as much of an Achievement as it is a Tech to get to 1st for it's benefits), is wasted research efforts for all others who did not "achieve" the Tech 1st in this regard. This also has been proven in the past to slow the AI down even more. As is the AI is pretty *amned good at getting to a religion tech 1st and consequently Founding a religion that it was in the past with what was done in the past (basically what you have proposed).

This is also why we have so many Religious related Game Options for players to choose from. This is an Old old debate and will probably be revisited over and over again just because of singular views in this area.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Unless they were all put on their own "religion era" which came before the prehistoric era.

Hmm... maybe, but it would screw up other coded assumptions that the eras are enumerated according to their order. Unfortunately his point is valid and I don't see an easy way to resolve it.

That defeats the whole purpose of a "gateway" tech. The tech is there to force the player to pick up more techs before leaving the era. Having "OR" not only defeats the purpose of picking up more techs before your done but then it means many tech afterwards would need to be reconnected to their previous tech requirements. In other words having an "OR" basically would act as if there was no gateway tech at all.

So the only way to get a gateway tech to work properly is to make them all "AND" techs.

For me, that's not the purpose at all, although it does help to ensure some bases are covered before moving on and an era isn't too easily skirted. I need these gateways because it helps to establish that there is only one way to enter an era so that all who enter that era can have various autobuildings and such that represent new factors for that era be established immediately upon era entry.

Equine domestication seems to be to be required for both however. Which is linked to Chariots and the Plough. However if you are in need of pikes it would be good to know of horses. Even if you don't have them.

What if they don't exist? And why should pikes really require any knowledge of them? They get a bonus against mounted units but the pike strategy wasn't purely one for anti-horse (which I suppose I still have to implement the S&D modifiers there to show that but in time, in time...)

 

[tmv]

Unfortunately his point is valid and I don't see an easy way to resolve it.

I see two ways to deal with it, but one of them might mess up the tech progression a bit and the other one is ... a bit nasty for anyone with a CS background. Here goes ...

• Make the gateway tech much more expensive (think Age of Empire leveling), at least as an option. That option could even replace the new one, because it certainly punishes beelining (you pass on several techs you could have researched in the meantime).
• Hard-code the gateway techs as those that increase the tech costs for the previous eras. To make that variable instead would be terribly cumbersome.

 

[Toffer90]

I see two ways to deal with it, but one of them might mess up the tech progression a bit and the other one is ... a bit nasty for anyone with a CS background. Here goes ...

1. Make the gateway tech much more expensive (think Age of Empire leveling), at least as an option. That option could even replace the new one, because it certainly punishes beelining (you pass on several techs you could have researched in the meantime).
2. Hard-code the gateway techs as those that increase the tech costs for the previous eras. To make that variable instead would be terribly cumbersome.

1. Something to consider indeed.
I have no opinion on it at the moment.

2. The new game option beeline stings does this, it was introduced at rev. 9495.
Not sure what you mean by "variable".

 

[tmv]

The new game option beeline stings does this

IIRC this option considers the era you're in, not certain gateway techs. Usually that doesn't make a difference, but there was the proposal

If it is a problem then the simplest solution would be to give the religion tech to all nations once it has been researched.

so now please imagine that the tech leader unlocks a religion tech in a late era, all civs get that tech and (if necessary) unlock the era, and now these civs that are already behind get massive penalties when researching the techs in the columns where they "are". This could increase the runaway effect massively.

When I say "variable" I mean that you could define "punishing" techs for each tech - dreadfully cumbersome, I know, but usually hard-coding pretty much anything is a "mortal sin" in coding.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Another way would be to have the religious tech go to all players who are in the current tech or higher then program reaching the gateway tech to let players get caught up then to the religious techs in that era. But then the problem gets back to ... are ALL religious techs deadends or are we potentially helping some players get an edge through the tree anyhow?

I dunno... It would be easier to make it so that if a player has popped a religious tech, no other player CAN research it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

so now please imagine that the tech leader unlocks a religion tech in a late era, all civs get that tech and (if necessary) unlock the era, and now these civs that are already behind get massive penalties when researching the techs in the columns where they "are". This could increase the runaway effect massively.

Except it wont. No religion techs are gateway techs they all have requirements that are in the same era as them. Giving a tech to a nation wont actually give them that tech until they have the requirements for that tech so they wont advance an era.

It is the same as free buildings you only get them in a city if the city meets the requirement for the building.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Another way would be to have the religious tech go to all players who are in the current tech or higher then program reaching the gateway tech to let players get caught up then to the religious techs in that era. But then the problem gets back to ... are ALL religious techs deadends or are we potentially helping some players get an edge through the tree anyhow?

I dunno... It would be easier to make it so that if a player has popped a religious tech, no other player CAN research it.

They are all dead ends.

If you can fix Koshling's work on PythonCallBacks then I can make it so that no one can research the tech once someone has researched it.

If you look at AnimalPlacing_PythonCallbackDefines.XML in Modules/NotSoGood/AnimalPlacing instead of just turning on a call back we now define the things that use it. In this case the CAN_BUILD callback and the BUILD_ functions or something.

How do I do this for the CAN_RESEARCH callback? Blast I have lost the code and am running late.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Giving a tech to a nation wont actually give them that tech until they have the requirements for that tech so they wont advance an era.

Really? Are you sure? I'm not saying you're wrong... I don't know. I'm just surprised by this. Does it have anything to do with the method by which the tech is 'given'?

Let's look at another angle on this. If I have a tech. Then later on tech tree changes make it so I no longer have the prereqs for that tech, would that stop me from 'having' the tech, from the perspective of the bool ishastech? I'm sure it wouldn't retroactively change what era I was in, unless we went out of the way to add an era recalculating structure. But would it mean that everything that I qualify for thanks to having that tech is now not qualified for? I have seen the game defy that logic in the MP games. As in, I can get a Spearmen unit thanks to having Copper Working and access to copper but once I can no longer qualify for Copper Working due to new techs, even though I 'have it' from previously earning it on an old tech tree structure, I still can build Spearmen.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If you can fix Koshling's work on PythonCallBacks then I can make it so that no one can research the tech once someone has researched it.

I have no idea how to tamper with Python Calls. That's scary territory for me. And I REALLY have no idea what Koshling did there, or even where.

However, if you can let me know what tag would be the best way to define a 'religious tech' I can very easily implement such a condition in 'canresearch'.

EDIT: I may be able to see if there's a call to python IN the canresearch function and how it processes.

 

[Hydromancerx]

For me, that's not the purpose at all, although it does help to ensure some bases are covered before moving on and an era isn't too easily skirted. I need these gateways because it helps to establish that there is only one way to enter an era so that all who enter that era can have various autobuildings and such that represent new factors for that era be established immediately upon era entry.

Well of course they can be used for that purpose too. Look at how i moved some of the diseases to them so the player would have to get them and not avoid them if they were on an optional tech.

Make the gateway tech much more expensive (think Age of Empire leveling), at least as an option. That option could even replace the new one, because it certainly punishes beelining (you pass on several techs you could have researched in the meantime).

I like the idea of making them more expensive for where they are in the tree. But by how much?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Look at how i moved some of the diseases to them so the player would have to get them and not avoid them if they were on an optional tech.

That's a perfectly valid way to work with diseases, yes.

I like the idea of making them more expensive for where they are in the tree. But by how much?

Interesting... I kinda like that idea too... maybe we double the normal cost for a religious tech huh?

 

[Taxman66]

As a suggestion, instead of giving everyone the religion tech upon its discovery, why not turn it off for everyone other than the one who discovers it. Sort of like the techs that have requirements (e..g. the volcanic cement) but in reverse. Once the tech is discovered the requirement would be removed from everyone else.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Interesting... I kinda like that idea too... maybe we double the normal cost for a religious tech huh?

Thought DH had already done that a long time ago. Someone go in recently and change what he did? Cause it takes extra turns of research to get the Religion Tech. More than the other techs in the same column.

Kinda have to ask this, and don't be offended either please, but are you guys checking the files or just making stuff up as you go from old memories?

 

[Thunderbrd]

As a suggestion, instead of giving everyone the religion tech upon its discovery, why not turn it off for everyone other than the one who discovers it. Sort of like the techs that have requirements (e..g. the volcanic cement) but in reverse. Once the tech is discovered the requirement would be removed from everyone else.

Pretty much the same conclusion I came to. Make it so nobody can research it once it's been researched.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thought DH had already done that a long time ago. Someone go in recently and change what he did? Cause it takes extra turns of research to get the Religion Tech. More than the other techs in the same column.

Kinda have to ask this, and don't be offended either please, but are you guys checking the files or just making stuff up as you go from old memories?

I'm not checking the files but I know the cost assignment bases from the main chart and unless it's been adjusted after those were applied to ALL techs (fairly recently) then currently they aren't more expensive... but if that was more recent, then cool! I don't recall anyone bringing it up previously but maybe there's PM conversations I don't know about, which really shouldn't be where we plan things.

 

[Toffer90]

@TB: It's kinda funny how you responded to this idea:

Make the gateway tech much more expensive (think Age of Empire leveling), at least as an option. That option could even replace the new one, because it certainly punishes beelining (you pass on several techs you could have researched in the meantime).

With this response:

Interesting... I kinda like that idea too... maybe we double the normal cost for a religious tech huh?

It's easy to get two discussions mixed up in each other when they are occurring at the same time and place; often with short comments minted at one, but could be interpreted as belonging to the other.

Good night folks.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@TB: It's kinda funny how you responded to this idea:
With this response:
It's easy to get two discussions mixed up in each other when they are occurring at the same time and place; often with short comments minted at one, but could be interpreted as belonging to the other.

Good night folks.

lol... good point. I scanned the quote too quickly and took Hydro's response to be in reference to something else and you have it exactly correct how that happened.

Still... doubling the Religious tech costs over their normal cost by X grid position would be good.

And I meant to say to that original quote earlier, I DO give a distinctive increase in the base cost chart according to the X layer where a new era opens up so it has the effect of making the gateway tech feel much more expensive, but those after it continue to maintain that flat increase underneath their dynamically increasing base value.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yeah i agreed with making the Gateway techs more expensive, not the religious techs. I do not have an opinion either way on how expensive religious techs should be.