Bottleneck Techs

[JosEPh_II]

BioPunk and CyberPunk still have their Old colors from their former Era. They are 1 column apart. Or they are out of place. I don't know which atm. Just reporting it.

Perhaps these are Module Techs I mentioned before.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The colours on the tech tree are set based on the Era tag on the technology

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why bother to squish the tech tree? Why not just insert a new column? It's not that difficult to run through all techs over a certain X value and adjust them up by one. As for time taken, it's no more than it is to plan out how to negotiate all that densifying and the more we condense the tree the more work we make for ourselves in the future when new building and unit chain analyses and equipment stuff and concepts for alternative civics and so on tend to demand their own new tech in a particular region.

 

[Hydromancerx]

BioPunk and CyberPunk still have their Old colors from their former Era. They are 1 column apart. Or they are out of place. I don't know which atm. Just reporting it.

Perhaps these are Module Techs I mentioned before.

Oops! Forgot those in the mods folder. If someone has not done it already I will have to chnage those over too.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Why bother to squish the tech tree? Why not just insert a new column? It's not that difficult to run through all techs over a certain X value and adjust them up by one. As for time taken, it's no more than it is to plan out how to negotiate all that densifying and the more we condense the tree the more work we make for ourselves in the future when new building and unit chain analyses and equipment stuff and concepts for alternative civics and so on tend to demand their own new tech in a particular region.

For the end of the Renaissance its actually not that squished. Take a look at my online tech tree for how it looks. The reason is that era looks like it looks like it use to be half that size and then each column were spread out where each column became 2 columns. So some pieces fit back in their old slots.

 

[Thunderbrd]

For the end of the Renaissance its actually not that squished. Take a look at my online tech tree for how it looks. The reason is that era looks like it looks like it use to be half that size and then each column were spread out where each column became 2 columns. So some pieces fit back in their old slots.

Ok... just saying. If you look at the modern(Atom), for example, I think it would take a lot of squishing there.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well in the Space mod the Atomic era started around X75 with Fission. Our modern era starts at x77. But I was looking at the tree and perhaps we should start our modern era at X72. It would be where Theory of Relativity and Trench Warfare are. Which would mean basically WWI starts our modern era instead. What do you guys think?

 

[Thunderbrd]

There's certainly a major shift in history at that point, for both the US and most other nations. If the Information age then begins at 81 or 82 with basically the invention of the internet, it would lead to good spacing, except then after that, the Information age end would need to be reevaluated.

 

[Praetyre]

Well, for my part, I know that some contemporary (no pun intended) academics place the beginning of the contemporary era around WWI (be it at the begininng or end of it), and certainly one can make a strong case either way (WWI vs end of WWII/start of Cold War) geopolitically.

There is, however, the matter of thematics, and in that regard I think WWI (and WWII) are much closer to High Industrial (Victorian) (as well as, for that matter, each other) than they are to the Cold War. This is something partly related to my massive music mod, something me and a RL friend are working on and have been for the last couple of months or so. But it's not just about music, but the overall feel and aesthetic of the era.

One can certainly make a very strong case WWI marks the collective mass suicide of Industrial civilization, and one can also make a moderately strong case WWI and WWII are the same conflict with a break period. But where that leaves C2C, and where that leaves it on both a gameplay and thematic level, is a question I myself am not sure of.

I am, however, definitely in favour of c. 1990 being the start of the Information Age/Era. There are so many cultural, technological and political watersheds, some more major than others, around that time that it feels like the perfect spot for an era break.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well there a few techs in the middle of the modern era that would be better in the information era. Computer Networks comes to mind since the building associated with it seem like they should be later. Its hard to move anything around the without breaking other techs.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Computer Networks is where I earlier said we should start the Information Age, just before or after or using that tech AS the crossover.

 

[Septimius]

I had a cursory look through this chain, so apologies if it's already been brought up or closed down.

Is it possible to make the gateway tech demands more open, instead of specific? I mean instead of you need this, this and this tech, in order to advance to Classical Civilization, could you make the rule "you need x no of era techs" to research Classical Civilization. Letting the player choose which route to go, in order to advance to the next era. Which means you could pick the version of riding beast you wanted f.ex. Or be a thoroughly religious civ.

I'm noticing the AI almost always follow mostly the same route of teching up btw. And they have an odd tendency to research already discovered religions. Which is a waste when they're already fallen behind.

Btw. a way to make the religion techs more useful to research, when you haven't got them first, couldn't you make them prerequisite for the religious buildings that you get from other techs? Right now any religion spreading to my lands is just another temple and sub-buildings waiting to be built. Very powerful stuff in a lot of instances, what with +5 food here and +5 production there, even though none of it is my state religion.

 

[Faustmouse]

Probably the easiest way to get this done is having a gateway tech require A AND B OR C instead of A AND B AND C. I kept my mouth shut about it, but honestly, I think being able to beeline a certain tech to some extend is a good design, not a flaw. If you desperately need a strong defender unit while you are at siege, you would skip all non military research and focus on longbow men for example. Same way with preparing for war. Being able to sacrifice some economic techs to get a military advantage (or the other way around!) is a choice that make a strategy game strategical IMO.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'm noticing the AI almost always follow mostly the same route of teching up btw. And they have an odd tendency to research already discovered religions. Which is a waste when they're already fallen behind.

Btw. a way to make the religion techs more useful to research, when you haven't got them first, couldn't you make them prerequisite for the religious buildings that you get from other techs? Right now any religion spreading to my lands is just another temple and sub-buildings waiting to be built. Very powerful stuff in a lot of instances, what with +5 food here and +5 production there, even though none of it is my state religion.

I have done a lot to make the religious techs useless if you aren't first to discover them and I have not seen any nation research any of those that have already been got.

If it is a problem then the simplest solution would be to give the religion tech to all nations once it has been researched.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If it is a problem then the simplest solution would be to give the religion tech to all nations once it has been researched.

Wow... that's an interesting thought. That would be very nice so that there can be no confusion as to whether the tech has been achieved already or not.

A long while back I tried to do some things to keep nations from researching religious techs if they've been achieve by another already but I think what I ended up with was something that only helped on some option combinations and it didn't work for all. I've gotten to be a much better and fluent programmer since then and I could probably fix it if I can ever think to.

 

[tmv]

If it is a problem then the simplest solution would be to give the religion tech to all nations once it has been researched.

That could unlock new ages for nations that have fallen behind, making the option for punishing beelining the biggest "snowballer" the mod has. But perhaps an alternative to punishing beelining would be to treat lifestyle techs like projects when it comes to tech costs.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I had a cursory look through this chain, so apologies if it's already been brought up or closed down.

Is it possible to make the gateway tech demands more open, instead of specific? I mean instead of you need this, this and this tech, in order to advance to Classical Civilization, could you make the rule "you need x no of era techs" to research Classical Civilization. Letting the player choose which route to go, in order to advance to the next era. Which means you could pick the version of riding beast you wanted f.ex. Or be a thoroughly religious civ.

I'm noticing the AI almost always follow mostly the same route of teching up btw. And they have an odd tendency to research already discovered religions. Which is a waste when they're already fallen behind.

Btw. a way to make the religion techs more useful to research, when you haven't got them first, couldn't you make them prerequisite for the religious buildings that you get from other techs? Right now any religion spreading to my lands is just another temple and sub-buildings waiting to be built. Very powerful stuff in a lot of instances, what with +5 food here and +5 production there, even though none of it is my state religion.

That defeats the whole purpose of a "gateway" tech. The tech is there to force the player to pick up more techs before leaving the era. Having "OR" not only defeats the purpose of picking up more techs before your done but then it means many tech afterwards would need to be reconnected to their previous tech requirements. In other words having an "OR" basically would act as if there was no gateway tech at all.

So the only way to get a gateway tech to work properly is to make them all "AND" techs.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

That could unlock new ages for nations that have fallen behind, making the option for punishing beelining the biggest "snowballer" the mod has. But perhaps an alternative to punishing beelining would be to treat lifestyle techs like projects when it comes to tech costs.

You can't actually "get" the tech until you have researched the techs that it requires.

I would use Platyping's World Wonder Techs but the stuff Koshing did to make the (real) PythonCallBacks to work much faster seems to break when used for something other than the Great Farmer.

 

[Hydromancerx]

That could unlock new ages for nations that have fallen behind, making the option for punishing beelining the biggest "snowballer" the mod has. But perhaps an alternative to punishing beelining would be to treat lifestyle techs like projects when it comes to tech costs.

Unless they were all put on their own "religion era" which came before the prehistoric era.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

That defeats the whole purpose of a "gateway" tech. The tech is there to force the player to pick up more techs before leaving the era. Having "OR" not only defeats the purpose of picking up more techs before your done but then it means many tech afterwards would need to be reconnected to their previous tech requirements. In other words having an "OR" basically would act as if there was no gateway tech at all.

So the only way to get a gateway tech to work properly is to make them all "AND" techs.

One of the reasons I dislike these bottleneck techs. I should be able to bee-line to iron working and the Renaissance and ignore all animal based techs if I don't have access to any of the animals (horses, elephants, camels etc.). I am not going to have access to those units so being forced to study them means my army is going to fall further and further behind. Whereas if I can get to pikemen or even gunpowder I have a good chance of standing against a mixed army of foot and mounted units.