Brave New World's 9 new Civs

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Not necessarily. I myself have only shifted towards Vietnam in that I believe they are more likely to make it over Indonesia. A lot of people have the same mindset.

This is exactly my point, though. People seem to think that Vietnam is more likely than Indonesia and I'm not sure I understand why (OK, Hanoi might be getting cut as a CS, but that seems to be it - and Almaty or Budapest equally could be getting cut instead).
 
Well, out if the three (Hanoi, Budapest and Almaty) Hanoi seems the most reasonable. Although a good point can be made for Almaty as well, as it could be on some Silk Road civ's city list.
 
I'd be really surprised if we get two Native American civs and even more so if both are from North America. I agree with the arguments speaking for two Native tribes, but I'm not sure how well they fit with any of the new game mechanics(trade, culture, tourism, ideology and world congress).

I still suspect it'll be 3 European, 2 Asian, 1 ME, 1 Native, 1 South American and 1 African civ.

While you make a good point about mechanics, how did the Huns, the Netherlands, Sweden, or Carthage fit with any of the new features (Religion/Espionage) in G&Ks? And from what we've seen of Assyria, they don't appear to be related to trade or culture in any fashion.

And the way I see it, the Pueblo were probably going to be trade centered, and the Cherokee could easily have a unique take on culture.
 
Well, out if the three (Hanoi, Budapest and Almaty) Hanoi seems the most reasonable. Although a good point can be made for Almaty as well, as it could be on some Silk Road civ's city list.

Exactly.

A good number of us advocating Vietnam's chances are only doing so because of the three CS replacements, Hanoi seems the most likely. Hungary will unfortunately easily be perceived as too similar to Austria and Poland as a cavalry civ from central-eastern Europe (though I do think it's deserving), and while a Silk Road iv is possible, it might be viewed as too similar to the existing Huns and Mongols from Central Asia for whatever reason. As such, Vietnam's the most likely Sofia CS replacement, even if only slightly.Currently, I put the chances at 40% Vietnam, 30% Silk Road civ with Almaty, and 20% Hungary.


And frankly, though I'm Vietnamese, I think Indonesia/Majapahit is way more deserving (though your female leader isn't as cool as our female leader :p). I mean, having that gigantic thassalocracy and all the Indian maritime ocean trade that was so crucial to much of world history and blah blah blah blah blah and Borbodur looks kinda cool to and blah blah blah blah really makes Indonesia a worthy civ (but being worthy isn't enough, unfortunately).
 
What about which city-states do Ur and Riga replace? They're both maritime. Current Maritime CSs are Cape Town, Jakarta, Lisbon, Manila, Mombasa, Quebec City, Ragusa, Rio de Janeiro, Sydney, and Venice...oh prolly Lisbon and Rio de Janeiro are replaced, so no Indonesia :(, unless there's another new maritime CS yet unrevealed.
 
Well, out if the three (Hanoi, Budapest and Almaty) Hanoi seems the most reasonable. Although a good point can be made for Almaty as well, as it could be on some Silk Road civ's city list.
As I've mentioned before, there's also the possibility of Sidon going to Assyria.

And of course, addition doesn't necessarily require subtraction. There weren't a lot of militaristic CS's to begin with.
 
I think they just might be increasing the number of militaristic city-states in the game since the vanilla version did have 8 militaristic city-states and after the G&K expansion the number went down to 6. For the cultural and maritime city-states, they are actually replacing them with new city-states since the throughout vanilla, DLC and G&K versions; their limit has always been 10. So Sofia is going to be an addition, not a replacement. In the case of Riga and Ur, they are going to be replacements for Rio de Janeiro (Brazil) and either Lisbon (Portugal) or Jakarta (Srivijaya). It could also be that we might have both Portugal and Indonesia in the game and that we have yet to see another new maritime cs.
 
It's certainly possible they're adding a new militaristic CS. But frankly I think the chances of them adding a new one is less than replacing one. For the latter we already have precedent, the former not so much. Given that we don't know much else, I believe it is more logical to assume that the precedent will occur, rather than something new we have no clue about (relatively speaking).

Personally, I'd put it roughly at a 80% chance of replacement and 20% chance of addition right now.



As I've mentioned before, there's also the possibility of Sidon going to Assyria.

I think we've already discussed this (I guess all our speculation has to go around in circles eventually with our limited information :lol:), but I think this is unlikely given that Sidon really works well as a CS, having conquered cities in city-lists is usually not the case, and the fact that it's possible to have an Assyrian city-list without going outside the Assyrian core (I believe someone said he successfully did this for all three major Mesoptamian civs)
 
What about which city-states do Ur and Riga replace? They're both maritime. Current Maritime CSs are Cape Town, Jakarta, Lisbon, Manila, Mombasa, Quebec City, Ragusa, Rio de Janeiro, Sydney, and Venice...oh prolly Lisbon and Rio de Janeiro are replaced, so no Indonesia :(, unless there's another new maritime CS yet unrevealed.

Or just simply make a medieval Indonesian civ without including Jakarta in their city list.. :p

...


And frankly, though I'm Vietnamese, I think Indonesia/Majapahit is way more deserving (though your female leader isn't as cool as our female leader :p). I mean, having that gigantic thassalocracy and all the Indian maritime ocean trade that was so crucial to much of world history and blah blah blah blah blah and Borbodur looks kinda cool to and blah blah blah blah really makes Indonesia a worthy civ (but being worthy isn't enough, unfortunately).

Hey, Tribhuwana is a badass warrior too you know.. In her early reign, she led the army herself to the battle field to crush a rebellion.. :p

Well yeah.. There are many factors for a civ to be selected.., even though that civ is very deserving to become a full civ..
The most recent case is the Pueblo.., because their leader cannot be portrayed in the game, Pueblo civ's position was in danger of being replaced by another civ..

And in Indonesian case, IMHO, the problem is their popularity among casual players (but we have Songhai here).., which lead to limited information about their culture (I hope the Dev at least know about Bali) and the difficulty to find the suitable voice actor (is someone here know how many Indonesian which stay in America??)..
But, if all of it can be fulfilled.., who knows what will happen?
 
Or just simply make a medieval Indonesian civ without including Jakarta in their city list.. :p



Hey, Tribhuwana is a badass warrior too you know.. In her early reign, she led the army herself to the battle field to crush a rebellion.. :p

Well yeah.. There are many factors for a civ to be selected.., even though that civ is very deserving to become a full civ..
The most recent case is the Pueblo.., because their leader cannot be portrayed in the game, Pueblo civ's position was in danger of being replaced by another civ..

And in Indonesian case, IMHO, the problem is their popularity among casual players (but we have Songhai here).., which lead to limited information about their culture (I hope the Dev at least know about Bali) and the difficulty to find the suitable voice actor (is someone here know how many Indonesian which stay in America??)..
But, if all of it can be fulfilled.., who knows what will happen?

Not as big of a community as the Vietnamese.
despite the fact that Indonesia is more influential to the region, Vietnam has been on the general publics political map(US public[Indonesia was{is?} one of the biggest US allies in the region]). Besides who doesn't want the nation that we(US) funded their rebellion against colonial power(FDR supported the Viet Minh, OSS present in Indochina from the 40s onwards, aided against Japanese and French Occupation) then got ed over by that support with the Cold War, Truman-Nixon.
 
And in Indonesian case, IMHO, the problem is their popularity among casual players (but we have Songhai here).., which lead to limited information about their culture (I hope the Dev at least know about Bali) and the difficulty to find the suitable voice actor (is someone here know how many Indonesian which stay in America??)..
But, if all of it can be fulfilled.., who knows what will happen?

I don't think finding an Indonesian voice actor will be that difficult, actually. There are Indonesian-Americans (there was one Indonesian-American kid at my high school), and I'm pretty sure they'll find someone if they have to.

Finding a Vietnamese voice actor will be ridiculously easy, though, given the large Vietnamese-American community, not to mention that there is a (relatively) sizeable Vietnamese-American media industry (though it's geared mostly towards Vietnamese-Americans) so finding somewhat professional voice actors isn't an issue.

Still, given the example of the Huns using the Chuvash language, I don't think language is really an issue when it comes to choosing civs.
 
First off, this response assumes there is only one slot for a new Asian civ.

Indonesia, IMHO is the better choice for a new civ, for several reasons:

Reason #1: Population: Compare the (modern) populations of the two countries; Indonesia contains ~237 million people (#5 globally), while Vietnam contains only ~88 million people (#13 globally), so an Indonesia civ would represent a much larger portion of the world's population (and customer base, :deal: ).

Reason #2: Area: Compare the (modern) areas of the two countries; Indonesia contains ~735,000 square miles/~1,900,000 square kilometers, (#15 globally) , while Vietnam contains only ~127,000 square miles/~312,000 square kilometers (#66 globally) , so an Indonesia civ would represent a much larger portion of the world's area.

Reason #3: Trade Routes: With the expansion's focus on trade routes, Indonesia would be a better civ to take advatage of the new system; all of Indonesia's major empires were thalassocracies (sea-based empires), and they could have a UA based on sea trade (double profit/speed?) and possibly a cargo ship UU with enhanced movement values/defense ability?. Vietnam, at any rate, wasn't known for trade in the same way Indonesia was.

Reason #4: Outside Influences: Vietnam was routinely being attacked by Chinese armies from the north as well as Khmer/Siamese armies from the west, with varying degrees of success against them; while they fared well against their SE Asian neighbors they were controlled for China for a whole millennium. After this, they did establish a long-lived independent kingdom but even then they never achieved a great empire due to continuing attacks from the Chinese and the eventual encroachment of the French. Indonesia, on the other hand, did not succumb to European invaders until the 19th century; yet, while Vietnam struggled under the thumb of the Chinese, the Indonesians established trade empire after trade empire; Medang, Srivijaya, Kediri, Singhasari, Majapahit (the most famous), and finally Banten; all these states were based on trade between the various Indonesian islands.

Reason #5: Playstyle: Indonesia just seems like the better option to me; the idea of a vast archipelago trade empire is awesome (and Polynesia never quite clicked for me in that regard and they're more for :c5culture: than :c5gold:). Vietnam seems like just another militaristic civ, and we need no more of those!), while the niche Indonesia fills is one which is sorely lacking in Civ5 (Portugal fills this too, but if we can have so many military civs, two sea trade civs is excusable, and Indonesia could have a whole different spin than Portugal, given the two are worlds apart).

Addendum: Should there be a second Asian civ, The Khazars would be a superior choice, because they bring a land trade element to complement Indonesia's sea trade nicely. They could easily be the 'Silk Road' civ everybody wants, being at a major crossroads between Europe and Asia.
 
A good number of us advocating Vietnam's chances are only doing so because of the three CS replacements, Hanoi seems the most likely. Hungary will unfortunately easily be perceived as too similar to Austria and Poland as a cavalry civ from central-eastern Europe (though I do think it's deserving), and while a Silk Road iv is possible, it might be viewed as too similar to the existing Huns and Mongols from Central Asia for whatever reason. As such, Vietnam's the most likely Sofia CS replacement, even if only slightly.Currently, I put the chances at 40% Vietnam, 30% Silk Road civ with Almaty, and 20% Hungary.

I agree with your thoughts, even with the chances
One important thing though: Austria is not a cavalry civ, it never was. Adding Hussars to them as an UU is more than strange
Hungary should get the Hussar, obviously, while Austria should get a new UU. Probably a Rifleman infantry
And this is exactly why the chances for Hungary are somewhat low
It wouldn't be a big change at all, still, we cannot possible know whether Firaxis is willing to switch any of their already established decisions/UUs
 
I agree with your thoughts, even with the chances
One important thing though: Austria is not a cavalry civ, it never was. Adding Hussars to them as an UU is more than strange
Hungary should get the Hussar, obviously, while Austria should get a new UU. Probably a Rifleman infantry
And this is exactly why the chances for Hungary are somewhat low
It wouldn't be a big change at all, still, we cannot possible know whether Firaxis is willing to switch any of their already established decisions/UUs

We do know that their are some changes being made to existing civs, though we don't know what. I still think the best indicator for Hungary's inclusion is the that its city list was excluded from Austria's which parallels what happened with Denmark and Sweden. When taken into consideration many other factors such as the ideology angle, eurocentrism, the presumed disappearance of a militaristic city state and its replacement by a European city state points toward Hungary. It's not certain, but I think its the strongest evidence there has been for Hungary in a Civ franchise. I still think Hungary has a 60-70% chance of inclusion based on that evidence.

If Italy is really included, that might lessen Hungary's chances, though I think it also raises Belgium's per the Scramble for Africa. I think this expansion is again going to be more eurocentric than most of us would like and that cybrxkhan's 3-5 scenario is most likely. I might revise my original list but I'd like to see if Italy really is an April Fool's joke or not. I'd also like to read and consider what others have said while I was away at a conference for the last four days.
 
Belgium has no chance IMO, it's not significant enough
Also, it's culture is half dutch, half french, I'm not even sure they can qualify as a distinct enough civilization
Keep in mind that we are talking about civilizations, not about nations...

Italy is an April Fool's joke, with the icon brilliantly made by Sukritact ;)
With Brazil's UA I think they are pretty unlikely too

Back to Hungary:
It's clearly among the most deserving civs to be included from Europe (on the top with Portugal)
Also they one of the most popular European civs, just check any of the polls
Still, while I'm very much hoping for their inclusion, they are not as likely as they should be, because of the way the Austrian civ was made :/
Let's hope the guys at Firaxis are willing the change their setup for Austria
It's cerainly an option, as you already said it

PS: I hope a very similar thing for Phoenicia/Carthage: change Carthage's trait name, and add a full Phoenicia civ
 
Belgium has no chance IMO, it's not significant enough
Also, it's culture is half dutch, half french, I'm not even sure they can qualify as a distinct enough civilization
Keep in mind that we are talking about civilizations, not about nations...

Italy is an April Fool's joke, with the icon brilliantly made by Sukritact ;)
With Brazil's UA I think they are pretty unlikely too

Back to Hungary:
It's clearly among the most deserving civs to be included from Europe (on the top with Portugal)
Also they one of the most popular European civs, just check any of the polls
Still, while I'm very much hoping for their inclusion, they are not as likely as they should be, because of the way the Austrian civ was made :/
Let's hope the guys at Firaxis are willing the change their setup for Austria
It's cerainly an option, as you already said it

PS: I hope a very similar thing for Phoenicia/Carthage: change Carthage's trait name, and add a full Phoenicia civ

My speculation about Belgium is only as a dark horse candidate, a civ that could narrowly fit but would make every one go "Oh no! Why A and no B?" Ideally for this expansion the only European civs will be Poland, Portugal, and Hungary. Not that I think Italy or even Belgium deserve permanent exclusion, I just realize its a zero sum game and I'd rather see civs like Kongo or Vietnam get a chance.
 
I'd be really surprised if we get two Native American civs and even more so if both are from North America. I agree with the arguments speaking for two Native tribes, but I'm not sure how well they fit with any of the new game mechanics(trade, culture, tourism, ideology and world congress).

I still suspect it'll be 3 European, 2 Asian, 1 ME, 1 Native, 1 South American and 1 African civ.

I actually really agree with you. I personally would rather see just 1 North American tribe in this expansion (my vote is Pueblo, Anasazi, or Apache to give Southwest tribal art & architecture a chance to shine).

I would rather see that last spot go to Israel, the Inuit, or the Australian Aborigines.

But what the players want isn't always what Civ does. And I honestly know I am in the minority in my Civ flavor tastes and that 2K has to look at what all of the players want.
 
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