Brazil - Pedro II Thread

[Liex]

I have seen people suggest Lula as the Brazilian leader. I too would argue this would make much more sense, but him being a recent leader probably rules that out in terms of possible leaders (at least for a few decades, if the series goes on that long).

Those people were just joking . The most common, serious suggestions besides Pedro II are Getúlio Vargas and Juscelino Kubitschek. Personally, I think Pedro II is head and shoulders above both of them.

Pedro makes even Catherine De Medicis look like Julius Caesar in terms of the power he yielded- France had about 16 million people in her time (she died in 1589) whilst Brazil had about the same in Pedro's time, and he died in 1890, more than 300 years later. In Pedro's time, France and the U.K. Both had 30-something million people. In terms of other South American Civs, there were around 12 million people in people in the Inca empire in 1438, over 450 years earlier.

It was probably even less than 16 million, yet it was alright for Latin America's 19th century standards.

Pedro II and the Empire were able to keep Brazil together through the 19th century. That may not sound like much, but most of the former Iberian colonies fragmented due to internal pressure, or lost their territories due to external pressure. Today's Brazil could easily be a dozen of small countries.

 

[Atlas627]

You don't think there's a pass button? In the following shot, the civ must have passed on Irenaeus somehow. Unlike Colonization, a player can't select the next GP down the line until the current one is selected from the pool.

Spoiler :

Did you see a pass button?

Also, that doesn't suggest they had to have passed on Irenaeus. They could simply be unable to use his only ability: found a new religion.

Since it seems all the Great Prophets have only that ability, why would you pass?

 

[isau]

Civilization is a "what if" game. Brazil may not have become a global empire, but that's partly due to bad luck. It's conceivable that it could have stolen the role of the United States had things gone a bit differently, or that it could "win" a game of Civ based on its culture alone. And Brazil is still the dominant country on the continent where it is found, as well as the 5th largest country in the world, with the 5th highest population--there are more people in Brazil than in Russia. It is true there are economic struggles there, but it still has one of the largest economies in the world.

 

[Colmar]

Brazil being added is just ridiculous. Even within Latin America, Brazil hadn't surpassed Argentina and Mexico in importance until somewhere around WW1. It's managed to use that time since to boom in population and spur a decade of articles about its future--followed by the last 5 years of articles on how Brazil has lost its future.

Speaking of future, I think it would have been cool to at least have something related to Futurism in Brazil. Something with Great Works or the Brasilia architecture. Pedro's ability is similar enough, but I think they really could have capitalized on one of the more unique (and non carnaval) aspects of Brazil. Also wish Pedro's ability had more to do with his level-headed ruling.

Either way, can't wait to argue with you all here when Poland is announced. All the merit of Brazil without the value of filling up empty map space.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Here's how I think Great Prophets work:

Every Great Prophet has the same ability, "found a religion". This lasts until the maximum number of religions for the map size have been founded. If you have already obtained a Great Prophet, you cannot obtain another through any means until the max number of religions has been reached. This is to prevent players from monopolizing religion by hoarding Great Prophets.

After the max number of religions has been reached, the special abilities of the Great Prophets change, and they behave in much the same way other Great People do, where each Great Prophet has their own unique ability. Many of the "enhancer beliefs" from Civ 5, such as increasing the speed or distance of passive religious spread, or making missionaries stronger or less expensive, or increasing your military strength near religious cities, will now be granted by expending Great Prophets instead.

 

[andrewlt]

Civilization is a "what if" game. Brazil may not have become a global empire, but that's partly due to bad luck. It's conceivable that it could have stolen the role of the United States had things gone a bit differently, or that it could "win" a game of Civ based on its culture alone. And Brazil is still the dominant country on the continent where it is found, as well as the 5th largest country in the world, with the 5th highest population--there are more people in Brazil than in Russia. It is true there are economic struggles there, but it still has one of the largest economies in the world.

Being a regional power in South America would be great if South America is a bigger part of the world economy than it currently is. When I went to business school for undergrad and MBA, it was all about Asia, US and EU.

More often than not, whenever I hear about South America's economy, it is in the context of Europeans and Americans arguing about socialism vs capitalism. Europeans bring it up as an example of how not to do socialism and the Scandinavians as an example of how to do it correctly.

Brazil is currently the 9th largest economy. I guess there are slim pickings for a modern civ as every country between Brazil and the US is an older power as well.

 

[VermelhoRed]

Well, with Brazil in, I think it's unlikely for Portugal to make it to the base game. I view Brazil is sufficient enough to represent the Lusitanic countries (Lusosphere); and there's lots of other major civilization yet to be represented (at least according to the leaked pictures).

I'm unhappy with Pedro's background btw, it looks really bland and not Brazil-ish.

Brazil is representing Latin America. Spain's the one who's the closest civ to Portugal on the board.

Am I the only one displeased with how Pedro looks?

Also: since when is Brazil known for its Great People. I would be hard pressed to name one famous Brazilian who isn't a supermodel or a politician.

That's your fault, not Brazil's

Talking about Portugal...

It seems absolutely ludicrous that Brazil is in before Portugal is. Portugal is an actual civilization with great accomplishments while Brazil is basically its offshoot.

That's ridiculous, eurocentric and just very very wrong.

Also, their great person bonus makes absolutely no sense for Brazil--Brazil hasn't exactly been a fount of internationally significant artists, writers, scientists, etc.

You have much to learn. I recommend this list for a start: https://rateyourmusic.com/customcha...origin_countries=Brazil&limit=none&countries=

Brazil being added is just ridiculous. Even within Latin America, Brazil hadn't surpassed Argentina and Mexico in importance until somewhere around WW1.

I guess Firaxis didn't check your Official National Importance Rankings...

Frankly if U.S.A. were reaquired by England tomorrow, It's independance would be a minor footnote in history books 1000 years from now.

Dude

Dude

If any of those countries would acquire the other, it would be the USA acquiring England, not the other way round.

 

[JimmyBanks]

Brazil is representing Latin America. Spain's the one who's the closest civ to Portugal on the board.


That's your fault, not Brazil's


That's ridiculous, eurocentric and just very very wrong.


You have much to learn. I recommend this list for a start: https://rateyourmusic.com/customcha...origin_countries=Brazil&limit=none&countries=


I guess Firaxis didn't check your Official National Importance Rankings...


Dude

Dude

If any of those countries would acquire the other, it would be the USA acquiring England, not the other way round.

Winner of best post right here. I love the idea that Brasil is in.

 

[Makenshi]

I think someone in the art department mistook the father for the son...

Here is a too-big-but-more-honest picture of Pedro I [who ruled only 7 years iirc]:

Spoiler :

Pedro II, however, has nothing to do with that very questionable [to be polite] version they just revealed. Here is a rare photography:

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

So I guess everyone that was saying Spain, India (myself) or Arabia got it very wrong.

There is still the live-stream tomorrow ;-)

 

[SMcM]

Disagree. Pedro II was a highly regarded figure in the world in his time and considered the greatest Brazilian in its history. Renowned greats of the time admired him (Darwin, Nietzsche) as a leader and patron of the sciences and arts (hence the great person bonus in Civ 6). Brazil went from a backwater former colony to a respected regional power under his reign. Unlike so many S.American dictators, he eschewed authoritarianism and respected the parliamentary system. He was greatly admired in his tours of Europe and America. I look at him as Brazil's Cyrus the Great (for what he did for Brazil, not for complete historical legacy). He laid the foundation of Brazil, the most powerful, respected and peaceful country in South America. Brazil has been the dominant power in S. America for over two centuries. I'm actually really impressed with how the Civ team has treated this. Even the choice of the Menas Gereas was great, since at the time, only a handful of nations had dreadnaught battleships. Their purchase signaled Brazil's arrival into the world.

Disagree with what? That Pedro was less powerful than Catherine De Medis? How so? She had a much larger country (except in land mass) centuries earlier, and there were culural achievements during her period of influence too. Having said that, I suppose that unlike her, Pedro had actual official power, not just pulling strings behind the scenes for most of her time, and so he was probably more powerful in his nation.

Addressing other comments, yes, 16 million was okay for a South American nation at the time, but South America was not very significant at that time. As for Lula being a joke, why? Corruption allegations? I though he was seen as being one of Brazil's most popular leaders- is that no longer the case?

Anyway, I think overall, though I would not have chosen Brazil for the base game, I think that all things considered, Pedro II likely is the best choice for their leader.

 

[Human Crouton]

I welcome Brazil, and in game they seem like a fun advanced player civ.

 

[Liex]

As for Lula being a joke, why? Corruption allegations? I though he was seen as being one of Brazil's most popular leaders- is that no longer the case?

Not only the corruption scandals, but his legacy is proving to be rather short-lived, and even his famed political dexterity is being contested. He's still very popular among some groups (poor, uneducated and older people in most cases), but I think the average Brazilian gamer doesn't quite belong to those groups.

 

[Mustakrakish]

Seriously though, that clipping beard is unacceptable and all around he looks the worst of all we've seen so far. Animation quality wise is much worse than all others IMO. What's up with that?

 

[Ulthwithian]

Here's how I think Great Prophets work:

Every Great Prophet has the same ability, "found a religion". This lasts until the maximum number of religions for the map size have been founded. If you have already obtained a Great Prophet, you cannot obtain another through any means until the max number of religions has been reached. This is to prevent players from monopolizing religion by hoarding Great Prophets.

After the max number of religions has been reached, the special abilities of the Great Prophets change, and they behave in much the same way other Great People do, where each Great Prophet has their own unique ability. Many of the "enhancer beliefs" from Civ 5, such as increasing the speed or distance of passive religious spread, or making missionaries stronger or less expensive, or increasing your military strength near religious cities, will now be granted by expending Great Prophets instead.

Perhaps after getting a Religion, Great Prophet points go to obtaining Apostles?

 

[wanglishi1]

These are very much my thoughts as well. I don't think U.S.A. should be represented either. They should stick to civs that had been well established for many centuries. Perhaps save these modern colonial nations for an expansion with proper colonization mechanics, civil war, and nation fragmentation.

Frankly if U.S.A. were reaquired by England tomorrow, It's independance would be a minor footnote in history books 1000 years from now.

Even having mthese modern European states is pushing it a little imo.

I totally don't agree with your argument dude.

IMO, the tempo of modern days is far more faster than the past. Say, things happen a day now may be much more than things happened a whole year in 1000A.D.
What U.S. has achieved for human civilization in the past 100 years can be far more influential than a civilization achieved during its existence for 300 years. Thus, even if U.S. were reaquired by England tomorrow, I don't think its independence would be a minor footnote in history 1000 years later. On the other hand, 1000 years later, people may not view those modern civilizations to be minor. Those countries will have a history of more than 1000 years compared to 2000+ years' European civs, not as a sharply contrast like 200 years vs 1000+ years as now. As long as those countries have developed their own culture, they can be considered as different civilizations I think.

Although I'm glad that some modern civ are in the base game, it's indeed somewhat weird that Brazil comes before Portugal considering U.S. and England are both in base game.

BTW, I'm just fine with Brazil comes out before Inca.

 

[Liex]

I'm wondering about his agenda. Maybe he'll like civs with strong science or culture?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm wondering about his agenda. Maybe he'll like civs with strong science or culture?

He will probably hate civs that have gotten more Great People than him.

 

[Brutus2]

Did you see a pass button?

Also, that doesn't suggest they had to have passed on Irenaeus. They could simply be unable to use his only ability: found a new religion.

Since it seems all the Great Prophets have only that ability, why would you pass?

In the Brazil video there is a tooltip popup when they mouse over one of the buttons. If you pause the video and read the tooltip it mentions being able to pass over great people.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Perhaps after getting a Religion, Great Prophet points go to obtaining Apostles?

It's possible, but that wouldn't explain why Brazil has stockpiled an enormous amount of Great Prophet points the second time we get a look at the Great Person screen.

But I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Great Prophet who has the special ability "instantly gain three apostles in your holy city" or some such.