Brennus Deityheart

[Fippy]

Quiet an unexpected start, Obso..erm BiC

Spoiler :

Gspy can actually be great for stealing from Mao.
If we are semi-iso, he will not trade unless friendly.

But i would prefer stoniehenge failgold instead? Maybe?
Yup i would. More powerful Bur. Cap possible if you go that way, brown river is okay with 2 food.

@Avro i would say Pyras are built around turn ~70 average on deity.
Being on turn 60 now, i know i should finish them soon.
Can already get unlucky, have seen them on 50s before.

 

[lymond]

interesting start BiC

Spoiler :

Amazing you got Oracle. I agree with My that SH might be best for fail gold, but Gspy could pay, especially since you got a religion. Looks like you got a WWE/SSE economy in the works.

One issue with stone city is it kinda loses a city there, but, ofc, that is a pretty awesome city itself. It also possible makes one rethink settling the seafood down S - making it into two.

By the way, I did start this once. Played a few turns, but didn't like my results Bit rusty, and wasn't paying attention to the fact that Mao would plop a settler on the island which was stupid on my part. I may try this again going with more of a My or BiC approach

 

[Lain]

Turn 50 -> 75

Spoiler :

So I got a bit worried after yesterday's discussion. Maybe Mao will settle on my island. So I check what he has... only archers. I stick to my plan and will just declare on him if he dares to do that. Clam city doesn't help me now without Fishing and Agriculture



I have 4th most land with just 2 cities ??? Everyone is on coast then? But it is still Fractal and not Archipel stuff, right?



Road in time for 3th city on Silver. Will settle on the grassland hill.



Mao gets Writing when I reach Bronze Working. I won't Open Borders with him until I have Sailing. No reason to boost him. Relationship doesn't matter here, he will never be Friendly with me. I don't count on any trades. Maybe get Alpha from him, that's it.

After Bronze Working I go straight for Writing.

1) I won't have Fish or Agriculture resource to improve for quite some time
2) I don't want a Great Engineer from the Pyramids, so I want to run Rep-Scientists asap (I just assume I will get Pyramids at this point, but even without I would select tech like this)
3) This is also why I didn't want to settle clam as my 3th city



That moment when you want to check wonder screen and get a quick shock because it says "Pyramids" there...



Settler is ready to found 3th city next turn. But what is my worker supposed to do?

1) Improve the silver for 3th city right away
2) Improve the copper for the capital
3) chop chop chop

I decide for 3)... again, I got a bit of panic after you discussed Pyramid dates on Deity. And I usually don't build Pyramids at all, so I don't want to take any chances. Working the silver earlier doesn't compare to missing out on Pyramids.



Next, I calculate my chop plan. Worker below will chop markers 1 and 2, then go to 3 without losing a turn due to road.

Worker above will chop the tile he is standing on, then the plains hill forest, then join Worker #1 on marker 3 without losing a turn aswell and chop it together. Turn after that Pyramids will be done if I don't work Pigs for 1 turn. Turn 63.



Great Wall has been built, ~80 gold means I can tech Writing now and finish it on same turn as Pyramids, immediately starting on Library then. I am in the micro zone right now.



Vienne builds Settler at size 3 after failing Great Wall. Will settle the coast finally.
Tolosa is a bit useless right now, but can build monument for access to wheat at least.



Here we go, Pyramids belong to Celtic history now.



One worker jumped on the silver.
What should worker #2 do now, though? In an offline game I would just improve the copper now. But I think for a while and ask myself, what is the point of copper? Capital will work 2 scientists at size 4 (+cow+pigs) and Tolosa will work wheat + silver. I don't need the copper.

What I really need is a chop in Vienne though to speed up Library there. If I do that, the Library will be done on the exact same turn the city grows to size 4, meaning I can work Sheep+Horses+2 scientists with +/- 0 food.





Fishing after Writing to set up coast-city. After chopping 1x into library the worker will chop a workboat.



Fishing comes one turn too late, but not everything can be perfect, jeez!



Capital can 3-pop-whip the library now with big overflow. But does the overflow really help me that much? If I wait one more turn, I can 2-pop-whip with barely any overflow, but I will be at size 4 for working pigs+cows+2 scientists. Growing back from 3 -> 4 without a granary causes too much delay. So I wait one turn.



Hahaha, Mao gets Alphabet and I can trade Mysticism to save one turn of Fishing research. Now I can start on the workboat right when the city is settled. Weeeeeeeeuh.



Capital will do what I said and get out a settler slowly while hopefully negating the Engineer-pollution in favor of a scientist. (screenie says worker, but I changed it to settler. Who needs workers?)



Tolosa will work the silver until the wheat-farm is online for growth. Settler will be built here aswell. With Pyramids I favor quick expansion. There are 1) fish + silver city and 2) fish+crab cities to settle



The worker can build a road on the silver (it is not hooked up, city is not on river) and be just in time to build the farm on wheat after border pop (monument)



Farm next turn



Vienne, one GS will be generated here. After that switch to cottage spam and move capital here. Or maybe it is not worth it really, just farm everything and run caste system.



Turn 75, Sailing is in and I opened borders with China this turn. I put in Meditation as place holder. Only makes sense if I want to bulb Philo. Confu isn't gone yet, so probably there is enough time.

Gergovia (coast city) has clams already and builds another work boat for next fish city. Won't be perfect timing though, boat comes 2 turns too late.

Score parity with China and decent beakers now.

What to research next?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well done, everyone!

BiC, I like your decision to settle on Stone. (That's what I would have tried.) Makes it easy to get all those early Stone wonders and even get fail wealth (gold) from building the Stone wonders in multiple cities. Good job on getting The Oracle without Marble and taking Code of Laws (?).

 

[Fippy]

gogo Lymo, try again for freedoooom

Not much time today probably, i should play on thou so i can read about all your games ~~

 

[Arvoreniad]

@Lain

Spoiler :

I guess you're considering philo for the religion happy and relation bonus with Mao? With Brennus being charismatic is it worth the GS bulb it costs? I think I'd focus on Astro but not much experience to back that up.

Map teched CoL in my game rather than alphabet and took the religion, hopefully it will spread.

 

[lymond]

Freedom!!! Let's get Pissed!!!

Turn 150

Spoiler :

Okay, kinda played this one a bit fast, but followed the BiC approach a bit at the start. SH went really fast so not much fail gold, but got GW and Mids. Oracled CoL.

lotsa fail gold from Chicken (actually built it to 1 turn in Bibracte just from bits of OF-it went late). Built Sankore just as nothing much better to build at time, but not much use if I stay FR. Maoi will give some gold to when completed.

Things seem really slow when you can't trade much early. Only traded CoL for Alpha with Mao at some point. Then used Gspy to steal a bunch of stuff. Hanny found me at some point and I was able to trade some with him.

Just libbed Astro recently, and upon doing so immediately made contact with all the rest of the AIs somehow (no boats). Switched from Mao religion (some reason he founded Hinduism) to FR so I could OB with Toku immediately with tech trade.

Not sure what my approach will be now. Hannibal drop from Pleased and immediately went Fist mode, which could very well be weak ole me. (shoulda paid attention to that to keep him at Pleased) So that is a threat. Diplo victory could work here. Military seems such a trudge on this map, and with little land Space might be hard.

Possibly trade for banking and go from Economics GM, but that could end up being a fail.

One issue is obvious lack of extra resources for trade with such small land mass.

I can squeeze one more city in there above horse, I think.

Scotland

Spoiler :

Tech

Spoiler :

 

[Fippy]

Short update for only turn 65, spending more time on screenies and stuff

Spoiler :

Sometimes you want to pat yourself on the back a little

Spoiler :

Befriending extreme

Spoiler :

Coastal cities yay

Spoiler :

Waiting 3 turns for pottery and granaries, i think it's probably a good time for 2 more settlers for 6 cities total.
North fish is nice cos gets several green river tiles from Cap, other city not great but Fish > Silver for now i think.

Spoiler :

Hmm i think workboats count as military?
Could switch into Police State for 5 turns when i chop / whip more lol.

 

[Lain]

@Fippy: How does +diplo from resource trades work? I thought it's like 50/100 turns of resource trading for +1/+2 diplo. Does it make a difference giving him more or less resources?

I played to Turn 100 so I can look at some more screenies now .

Spoiler :

I give Mao some silver and hope for +diplo from that. Will see if I can get him to pleased, friendly seems unlikely.



China has the Great Lighthouse, hmmm.... and Oracle hasn't been built yet . If I get a Great Engineer at 30% chance, maybe I can build it. Went to Priesthood via Meditation, I want Philosophy after all. Even using a GS to bulb it, it will still be faster to get the GS for bulbing Astro in the end.



Oo, Great Engineer and Oracle not gone yet. What else am I going to do with this guy? And taking CoL for religion and early caste is a huge boost.





Well, that was fun.



Mathematics next, hoping to trade Maths+Priesthood for Alpha from Mao (the only tech he will trade). I will use the missionary for myself, don't want to build a galley. It will autospread anyway sooner or later.

Workboat is not quite in time for the new settle (will settle with fish in first ring).



Timing here will be better though new settle will work the fish for all its life.... until some Frigate plunders it later.



Battles on other continents have already begun it seems. Hi Monty?



Traded for Alpha as planned, had to put quite some beakers into Alpha though... also, he adopted confu aswell, we are basically buddies now.



After Mathematics I research Iron Working... it's a pre-req anyway and probably more useful than Metal Casting. Maybe some fish city with low production has iron. Forges are too expensive for now. I have granaries in my major cities and will just grow them now, building farms everywhere.



Stopped running scientists here temporarily, the city needs to grow to pop 7 or 8, then I can run scientists with Caste System. Long-term, I want to cottage it and move palace here with Oxford. GS for philo bulb will come from here.



Game is going too perfect right now, probably DoW by Mao impending to shatter the fun I am having. Revealed iron and worker is there anyway.



Tech situation. Mao has nothing basically.



Chicken Pizza for failgold in capital. With the way wonders have been going I probably won't see my gold for another 1000 years though... Hope confu spreads here soon, because I want to run scientists here eventually.



Vienne growing happily, caste system soon.



Tolosa had to abandon the wheat for Vienne, not a very great city right now... but what can you do, at least it's working silver.



The sight of Gergovia is making me really happy right now, 1 or 2 GS will come to life here.



Camulodunum will 2-pop-whip the granary next turn, worker will chop the tundra forest and finish lighthouse soon after. After this whip I can finally switch into caste system aswell, this is basically causing the delay.



Verlamion has a granary already and a lighthouse will soon follow, especially with the iron which is being hooked up at the moment.



Also @Arvoreniad, since I just read your comment again. The only reason for Philosophy is Pacifism in my case.

Fun game .

 

[Fippy]

Made a test game for resi diplo
First turn was spent settling, then i gave him 9 wb resis.

1 turn later i already had +2 fair trade diplo

Spoiler :

, next turn +3 and after 3t total +4

Spoiler :

After 6 turns he gives we appreciate the resis bonus

Spoiler :

So i would think each resi is worth 1 turn, with 9 given you would need only 6 turns for +1 and 12 turns for +2.

Not sure how many you must give away for the fair trade bonuses, but it's possible i have seen that in games too with less
Saved added.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@Lain

As Fippy showed in her WB test game, the diplomatic bonus for supplying resources to an AI is +1 for 50 resource turns and +2 for 100 resource turns. They do not need to be gifts; they can be part of a "fair" resource trade.

The resource turns can be earned faster by trading more resources to the AI. Here are several ways to gain 50+ resource turns, thus a +1 resource sharing diplomatic bonus:

Spoiler :

1 resource for 50 turns
2 resources for 25 turns
3 resources for 17 turns (51 resource turns total)
4 resources for 13 turns (52 resource turns total)
5 resources for 10 turns
6 resources for 9 turns (54 resource turns total)
7 resources for 8 turns (56 resource turns total)
8 resources for 7 turns (56 resource turns total)
9 resources for 6 turns (54 resource turns total)
10 resources for 5 turns
11 resources for 5 turns (55 resource turns total)
12 resources for 5 turns (60 resource turns total)
13 resources for 4 turns (52 resource turns total)
14 resources for 4 turns (56 resource turns total)
15 resources for 4 turns (60 resource turns total)
16 resources for 4 turns (64 resource turns total)
17 resources for 3 turns (51 resource turns total)
18 resources for 3 turns (54 resource turns total)
19 resources for 3 turns (57 resource turns total)
20 resources for 3 turns (60 resource turns total)
21 resources for 3 turns (63 resource turn total)
22 resources for 3 turns (66 resource turn total)
23 resources for 3 turns (69 resource turn total)
24 resources for 3 turns (72 resource turn total)
25 resources for 2 turns

When one actually gives the AI resources, it also affects the fair trading bonus. This is because the trade is unbalanced in favor of the AI; he would normally give x wealth per turn (bars of gold per turn) in trade or a different resource of similar value for the resource. One would get the same credit for directly giving the AI x wealth per turn on Noble level; the credit is adjusted for the difficuly level played; for example, the credit is drastically reduced when one is playing Deity Level as compared to Noble Level.

What puzzles me is the AI is always (except when unfavourable diplomacy intervenes) willing to trade similarly valued resourses regardless of Difficulty Level (the developers seem to have ignored the value differential between Difficulty Levels in this limited case. It may be different with strategic resources though; I haven't given them much thought.

 

[Fippy]

I just thought, 9 are not realistic and also Iron among them.
Tried new with 5 normal food resis, after ~3 turns i got +1 fair trade.
After 10 turns, still +1 fair trade and also +1 we appreciate.

Spoiler :

So yup, you need 50 turns with 1 trade or 10 turns if you give away 5, 13 with 4 and so on.
Woops x-post with Wu

edit: Sun-Tzu is also right with fair trade bonus being related to how much gold / turn you could get. I replaced 3 food resis with copper, horsies and Iron.
After 1 turn already got +2 fair trade.

Another edit: tried with only 2, horsies + pigs.
After 2 turns +1 fair trade as well (helpful for my real game).
I then clicked for 30 turns, but fair trade would not increase.
So would have to add more, not turn based here.

 

[Arvoreniad]

Played up to T100 - I'm out of my depth on Deity but it's been fun nevertheless. Any advice is very much appreciated.

Spoiler :

I haven't gone for the wonder strategy that others have, which will probably cost me. I'm just not accustomed to building them early, but with stone, Mids + failgold from SH/GW would have been a good idea. But the game goes on nevertheless - I'm aiming to bulb my way up to an early astro and see where I can go from there. I should definitely have got sailing before now, that'll be my next tech I think before going back to Math.

My empire as it stands. I'm fearful of crashing the economy (don't have currency yet and may not get it pre-astro), so will stay small. Perhaps one more city with the crabs + fish to help generate GS. There is one GS in Bibracte already - should I use it now (would get Math - possibly a waste), or save for machinery/optics/astro? Confucianism has just spread across from Mao which is helpful. I've started gifting him resources.

The tech screen - I just got Alpha, Mao clearly has some useful techs if I can get him to friendly. Interesting to see he has Aesthetics already, not a common choice for the AI.

Some scouting of Mao's lands. No accessible AI beyond them it seems.

 

[Lain]

Thanks for the insights on ressource trading, @Fippy and @Sun Tzu Wu . Very helpful, will try to use that more in future games.

I got DoW'd in my game caused big delay. Astro in 800 AD and Civil Service next turn. Doesn't look very good.

@Arvoreniad

Spoiler :

I had a quick look, not much time right now though. Just some things:

- I think the scouting and city placement are nice, you have a good idea of what is going on in this map
- City development looks good too, nobody is working bad tiles or growing into unhappy yet
- Prevented Mao from settling your island, which is good
- Wonders definitely make all the difference, at least Pyramids could be obtained with effort. Oracle is a bit cheeky of course. Did you build something for failgold?
- Staying compact is good, but I think 4 cities is not a lot at Turn 100. At least the crab/fish site would be rather useful, since...
- You want at least 3 cities working on a GS to be in time. Now you already have sort of a shortage of GP point generation.
- Instead of going for Alphabet, something else might have been more useful. Alpha and Monarchy the AI will always trade. So in your case, I might have tried to get CoL via Priesthood. It's unlucky Mao went for that himself, but maybe you could have been faster. If not, bulbing Philo would still have been an option to trade for Monarchy+Alphabet
- Research-wise, you might be kind of fine once all the cottages start growing. In cases like this, the lack of GP points will hurt a lot though.
- For a city like fish/crab, you won't even need a library there. You can grow it to max size (after whipping/chopping granary + lighthouse) and then run caste system, that will do the trick. You can run maximum scientists for a few turns and before starving, let it grow back its food bar. Then rinse and repeat
- You have too many units and barracks are not really needed. If Mao wants to attack you, he will do so anyway. But the troops are costing you something like 7 gpt at the moment? With Pacifism it will hurt even more.
- Instead of making cottages right away, it is worth considering farming everything first and then replace with cottages when you reach size 8
- Your silver is not hooked up yet
- Bulbing Maths is not worth it for sure. Since you have a religion, philosophy for running Pacifism might be worth it. It will come a bit too late, but you could just try it and see how you get there for learning purposes

Fun is definitely the most important part and I think on maps like this there is a lot to be learned so trying this is very good. This map is in no way an easy win even for seasoned deity players I don't think.

 

[Fippy]

Yup what Lain wrote, @Arvo.
Esp. fish + crabs and in general spots with 2 food resis are too good to not settle.
I assume you were a bit scared of deity costs, but such cities pay back very quickly.

Magic city number = 6, upkeep increases only slightly for each one.
7th costs much more, i guess that's maybe cos of Inflation?
I cannot remember why, but until you have 6 you should settle spots like 1 fish as well
Then it's time for considering if 7+ are worth the cost.

It's usually wonders vs. more cities early, this map is nice for new deity players cos there's no pressure from AIs for land grabs. Pyras are among the early top 3 wonders, and worth delaying some cities. Very good cities (fish + crabs qualifies when so close) should be settled early if any possible thou.

Also good for moderate fogbust training, most of your units are expensive and not needed if you cover the few areas where barbs can pop.

 

[Arvoreniad]

Thanks for the advice guys, I will play some more soon.

 

[Arvoreniad]

Played up to T115

Spoiler :

Not a particularly eventful 15 turns. Researched sailing and math, settled the crab/fish and fish/silver cities and fixed up a few mistakes that had been pointed out. Seems to be a bit of a turning point here - I don't know whether to go straight for Astro with what I've got or pick up CoL and/or Philo for GP generation. Is it worth gifting Mao a tech (maybe calendar) to boost relations?

Thoughts on what tech path I should take?

 

[MegaLurker]

The old graph I'm basing this on might not be totally correct anymore, it was from long before BTS I think. But it showed an increase in additional city cost from city 6 to 7, but a much larger (double?) increase from city 9 to city 10.

 

[Lain]

To 1050 AD, a bit less detail than usual, but somehow not thaaat much happens when you have your own little island

Spoiler :

Bulbed Philosophy in 200 BC, finally able to run Paci. Plan was to acquire pre-reqs for Astro while bulbing Machinery, Optics and Astro.

I scouted Mao and saw this fleet sitting in his capital... already a bad sign kind of.



And sure enough, he declared a few turns later.



I switched into Police State and whipped a total of like 10-12 units from all cities, since I saw a lot of Galleys. But... he never sent any land units. However, he blockaded my seafood in the east. My trade routes were cut off, I switched out of Rep and Caste because of him, I didn't have access to my seafood, I sacrificed valuable pop for units and I paid a lot of maintenance for those troops....

War dragged on for like 15 turns like that. In that time, my empire basically didn't do anything. Research dropped and GP generation was also crippled.





On the upside, Chicken Pizza brought lots of failgold, about 800.

I was able to bulb Machinery+Optics by 450 AD or so. That is okay. But Astro will be seriously delayed because of Mao. Just straight isolation would have been easier than having him as neighbour.

Met Hannibal via border pop on the same turn I bulbed Optics oO



Actually, the war dragged on for 20 turns apparently..... I hate you Mao



After signing peace treaty I deleted like 10 units. Which I didn't need because he never bothered to land any troops. That whole thing has been such a pointless setback. In hindsight I didn't have to make all those troops, but they boosted my power rating at least. Maybe he wouldn't have talked about peace for even longer if I maintained only warriors in my cities? But anyway, can't take a risk like that. Keeping only one warrior in coastal cities during war and relying on AI stupidity would have been a bit cheeky.

I bulbed Astro 800 AD ( ) and just got Civil Service in, tech looks like this. Liberalism is basically gone.



Hannibal started plotting after meeting me... happy times. Main rivals in this game will be Charly (+Ragnar) and Toku. They are currently at war with each other, hope nobody gains any ground there.

Freddy, Hannibal and Mao seem rather weak with only a few cities. Hannibal peace-vassaling to Toku has to be a concern though.

My plan: Beeline cannons, ignoring Paper and Education. Take out Mao and Freddy at least. Hannibal too if I can. Kiss up to Charly, take out Toku together if possible. Win diplo.

Angkor Wat gives another 700 failgold. I recovered from the Mao DoW and can research at 100% with astro trade routes. I expect Steel at about 1250 AD. All these dates are worse than they could be, but have to live with that.

I switched out of my religion for 5 turns to open borders and make some trades with everyone (except Toku). Then back into Confu for Pacifism.



Hannibal declares on Charly... but Toku (Apo resident) votes his buddy back into peace next turn



I moved palace to Vienne, not the best buro capital ever, but it is doing something. Still needs academy though.



This GS will bulb the rest of Chemistry and help me shave off 5-6 turns.



Tech situation after reaching Chemistry. Steel in 11.



Shaping to be another violent one ... Mao doesn't have iron, should be a cakewalk without meeting Knights or Cuirs.

@lymond, your game looks really impressive at 800 AD. Lib and Astro already. Tech pace looks a lot quicker with the AI further ahead aswell.

Looking forward to everyone's updates

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Interesting approach, settling on his island like that. I would be worried about making myself a land target, but you are looking for an early military resolution anyway, it seems . Really curious how that works out, but if you can take him out you will have 15+ cities and there should be many options after that.

 

[Arvoreniad]

Thanks for the advice @BornInCantaloup, a lot of these micro elements are things I've never had to think about before - one can just usually blunder through and win on immortal. I'll replay with more care and see how much I can improve.