BRIEFING for FIRST Meeting with KISS

Ambassador Kentharu,

We appreciate your relunctance to respond to us until you can see where we are coming from. Our envoy is a single warrior who has come a long way for the express purpose of making your acquaintance to our mutual benefit. Our intentions are wholly peaceful. We hope you will open a line of communication.

Regards,

Major Idiot Whomp
Click to expand...

this was recieved at 8:58 PM Sept 4th 2005
and i responded

Whomp

My apologies for a late response to your first pm. We have seen the warrior and thank you for sending it.
I assume this means we are on the same continent. Perhaps if you could point us in the direction of your great nation we could do the same for you.
Also, regarding our IM meeting i do assume you mean msn, if not tell me and i will immediately download whatever it is. I doubt that this meeting could take place today (or rather tonight) but i assure you it will happen by tomorrow.
May both our nations prosper

Ambassador Kentharu
Click to expand...

sent 10:22 pm Sept 4th 2005

i think we should use IRC since all convo's are recorded and anyone who wants to give any last minute info can do it without giving away anything
you can do the same thing on MSN (and thats the only thing i have right now)
from what i understand more people have IRC than MSN
 
here is our (or rather my) first IM with KISS i think it went OK hope i didn't let down the team
the convo began around 10:30pm and ended near 11:20 pm both on Sept 4th 2005

Kentharu says:
You are whomp correct?
Whomp says:
Hey Kentharu
Kentharu says:
hey
Whomp says:
Do you think we can talk in the morning. Bede will be in the conversation and can meet early or later in the evening tomorrow
Kentharu says:
Tomorrow is great... dont know about in the morning cause i don't wake up to early
Whomp says:
who will be joining from your team?
Kentharu says:
well no one really im the rep so, and our foreign minister is alseep i think
Whomp says:
fe3333au?
Kentharu says:
yes thats him
Whomp says:
he will be present tomorrow later maybe?
Kentharu says:
most likely
Kentharu says:
Is Bede a rep. for your team also?
Whomp says:
Yes we may have a few
Whomp says:
just you and fe?
Kentharu says:
yes
Whomp says:
can we fix a specific time?
Kentharu says:
of course
Kentharu says:
i would have to talk it over with fe first but yes
Whomp says:
Hmmm...
Whomp says:
He is usually in here early but you're asleep.
Kentharu says:
I will be up around 10 or so
Whomp says:
10 EST?
Kentharu says:
yes
Kentharu says:
are you on EST?
Whomp says:
ok how does 10:30 work as long as you can talk to Fe first. I am in Chicago. CST.
Whomp says:
Bede is EST
Kentharu says:
that should work as long as i can work it out with Fe
Kentharu says:
i dont think there will be any problem
Whomp says:
Shouldn't be. If he is not do you want to set a contingency time?
Kentharu says:
12 pm will do fine by me but it is up to you
Kentharu says:
whatever is convenient for you
Whomp says:
couple issues. He works and I've got a birthday dinner later tomorrow.
Whomp says:
The world depends on us!
Kentharu says:
lol indeed it does, i don't have much, except school
Kentharu says:
and tomorrow is no school
Kentharu says:
one thing i want to get out of the way, are we on the same continent?
Whomp says:
right so get up early
Kentharu says:
i assume we are since we made contact via a warrior
Whomp says:
have you guys played the save?
Kentharu says:
we have the save and fe gave me a screen shot
Whomp says:
did you see our warrior?
Kentharu says:
yes
Whomp says:
Do you know how long it takes to get galleys?
Whomp says:
Yes we are on the same continent. Why?
Whomp says:
The Celts don't know how to sail our warriors around the world yet.
Kentharu says:
i just wanted to make sure, i dont like assuming this
Kentharu says:
this=things
Whomp says:
No probs. We will be happy to answer all your questions tomorrow. 10:30 then?
Kentharu says:
10:30 it is
Whomp says:
done and done. Get some sleep we have a lot to talk about!
Kentharu says:
indeed we do
Whomp says:
G'Night.
Kentharu says:
Night
Click to expand...
 
Here are all the facts (and a few hypotheses) that I can see.

Fact - We met via their warrior moving next to our warrior in the far west (9 tiles from The Black Hole).

Conclusion – they are on our continent, but there is no immediate threat.

Fact - Our military is strong compared to theirs.

Conclusion – they have at most 2 warriors as military.

Fact - Simpleton grew to size 4 before going down at all. Now it is going at a pattern of 4 for 2 turns, then 5 for 2 turns then back to 4. Celts start with pottery. Most likely, they built a granary first and are now operating as a 4-turn settler factory. Since it is size 4-6, I do not think it is possible to be a 4-turn combo factory.

Conclusion – they have a 4-turn settler factory, but they will not have nearly as much military (if you count our regular warriors as military), and their settlers will often be going out unescorted.

Fact - Celts start with Ceremonial Burial and Pottery. They researched Bronze Working (since we can trade them Iron Working). They are almost certainly researching Iron Working to get their UU. Based on tech prices in F6, either KISS has Warrior Code, or the Donuts completed researching it in the last turn. Since the Donuts researched Writing first, I think it is highly unlikely they went to Warrior Code next – even though they need Warrior Code for their UU, they would certainly go for The Wheel first to find horses, and they don’t have that (again based on tech prices). I also think it very unlikely KISS researched Warrior Code – why would they do Bronze Working then not do Iron Working? So someone popped Warrior Code from a hut. Since the Donuts would get Ceremonial Burial if they popped a tech (unless they were researching it which also seems unlikely), it must be KISS.

Conclusion – KISS started with Pottery and Ceremonial Burial, researched Bronze Working, and are currently working on Iron Working. They popped Warrior Code from a hut.

Trade Plans – do we trade with them? We have Alphabet and Iron Working to offer, KISS has Warrior Code (probably), Pottery, and Ceremonial Burial. They are probably researching Iron Working, so I don’t know what we could get for it – they may already be close enough that they will just finish themselves. I think there is a very good chance they have not met the Donuts yet and do not realize they will soon. They should value Alphabet fairly highly since they should want a curragh to explore faster, and it is a relatively expensive tech on the way to Republic. None of their techs are desperately needed by us, but I think we should try to get fair value for Alphabet before the Donut curragh makes it to them. Pottery and Warrior Code have the same price combined as Alphabet and would be a fair trade potentially advantageous to both teams.

Conclusion – try to trade Alphabet for Pottery + Warrior Code.

Alternative Trade – since the Donuts also have Pottery, we could take Warrior Code + Ceremonial Burial from KISS for Alphabet, and try to get Pottery from the Donuts for Ceremonial Burial. However, even though Pottery and Ceremonial Burial are the same tech cost, I think everyone will know that Pottery is more useful in the early game than Ceremonial Burial, and we may have to throw some gold in to sweeten that deal. If pursuing this approach, I recommend sounding out how Donuts would feel about Pottery for Ceremonial Burial first (let them think we popped Ceremonial Burial from a hut, if possible, although if they look at tech costs they will realize we don’t have it yet and will know we have another contact).

Cliff’s Notes version of Recommended Tech Trades:

A. Trade Alphabet to KISS for Pottery and Warrior Code; or
B 1. Trade Alphabet to KISS for Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial, then
2. Trade Ceremonial Burial (plus gold?) to Donuts for Pottery.

Mid to Long term plans – KISS will outgrow us in the mid to long-term, but we will have stronger military in the short to mid-term. Do we really have a choice how to play this? I again hesitate to advocate early war with my complete inexperience at multiplayer, but it seems like this situation is screaming for it. Of course, we must be friendly now, but…
 
I want to make sure everybody reads the above very carefully. Chamnix has opened up quite a Pandora's box. His suggestions for Tech Trades have consequences. I don't mean to say that we won't profit. I just want others to think hard about the techs we are giving to others, and how they might use them.

I read that post three times through, completely, and I'm still not sure I understand how he reached some of his conclusions. However, I think we have all come to understand that even if Chamnix doesn't express himself perfectly clearly on the first read, he is able to elaborate and buttress his stance upon further inquiry.

His advice sounds reasoned. I'm sure he is certain of his conclusions. Just everyone think about it before coming to your own decisions.

Personally, I would lean towards trying to broker Dealio B: Trade Alphabet to KISS for Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial, then Trade Ceremonial Burial (gold?) to DNuts for Pottery.
 
Whomp says:
did you see our warrior?
Kentharu says:
yes
Whomp says:
Do you know how long it takes to get galleys?
Whomp says:
Yes we are on the same continent. Why?
Whomp says:
The Celts don't know how to sail our warriors around the world yet.
Kentharu says:
i just wanted to make sure, i dont like assuming this
Kentharu says:
this=things
Whomp says:
No probs. We will be happy to answer all your questions tomorrow. 10:30 then?
Kentharu says:
10:30 it is
Click to expand...

Why did he ask about galleys? Was he trying to throw Kentharu?

Whomp says:
who will be joining from your team?
Kentharu says:
well no one really im the rep so, and our foreign minister is alseep i think
Whomp says:
fe3333au?
Kentharu says:
yes thats him
Whomp says:
he will be present tomorrow later maybe?
Kentharu says:
most likely
Kentharu says:
Is Bede a rep. for your team also?
Whomp says:
Yes we may have a few
Whomp says:
just you and fe?
Kentharu says:
yes
Whomp says:
can we fix a specific time?
Kentharu says:
of course
Kentharu says:
i would have to talk it over with fe first but yes
Whomp says:
Hmmm...
Whomp says:
He is usually in here early but you're asleep.
Click to expand...

I will try to be there. But I have never done IRC or anything!! Someone please PM the details of what I need to install (Mac OS 9.2 Netscape 6)

They have been watching our attendance, and know who is making the calls.

Kentharu: You did great during the first chat. You got some answers we desperately needed. in this second chat, don't try to give too much. Re-read Chamnix's post above. It lays out much of the motivation of why they are looking for the things they are.
 
Well team MIA certainly has one fine diplomat ... you did us proud sir ...

I am unsure if I am able to attend ... Inaugural Meeting ...
(I am on dial-up and very slow ... comp still tempermental ... also need instructions as to instal etc) ... therefore if I am not there may the spirit of MIA be there ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

:salute: Chamnix you really know this game man :wow:

Issue 1 - The Trade

Method - The Dangled Karat

KISS' Hidden Cards
>Ceremonial Burial
>Pottery
>Bronze Working
>(Warrior Code) ... Likely from Chamnix
>(Another Tech) ... highly unlikely
>>>(Iron Working) ... fair assumption they are researching this ...

Opening Move

MIA - What will you give for Alphabet ...???

KISS - any single tech
MIA - NO as Alphabet is worth double and don't get me started on the benefits ...

KISS - What if we add some cash
MIA - NO

KISS - What then?
MIA - A Worker

KISS - What !?! ... are you guyz Crazy ?!!
MIA - Ha Ha ... <Crazy like a Fox :evil: > ... another Tech then ?

KISS - No Way
MIA - Wait a minute ... you started with Coffins and Pots ... No secret there

KISS - Yes
MIA - Anything Else?

Truth
KISS - Warrior Code or Other Tech
MIA - We want Warrior Code (Other) and Ceremonial Burial

or Dare
KISS - No
MIA - We want Both

KISS playing hard to get ...
KISS - I don't know

Pots and Coffins
MIA - Take it or leave it

Coffins and Other Tech
MIA - OK OK ... We know you have Bronze ... Damn It I'm gonna get spanked but what the F@#$% ... I'll Add Iron Working ...

Reason - They are researching anyway ... and a single figure turns away from it ...

KISS - [party]
<KISS Celebration Loud Party>
MIA - ... BUT ...
<Silence ... 1 Ballon Loudly Pops>
KISS - What ??
MIA - I need a bit of gold to go with it
KISS - How Much ??
MIA - What you think??
KISS - XXgp
<no response ... 1 sec>
<no response ... 3 sec>
<no response ... 5 sec>
MIA - OK Done ... We'll Draw up th Papers and PM ... Transfer tech next turn ..."


THE ABOVE is Best case scenario ... I propose this to be the script ... move around it but not too far !!

DOs
>Talk about bloody F#$%^ing Barbarians
>Lack of Resources
>

DON'Ts
>Luxury Specifics
>Cities
>etc
 
Sorry about anything that was unclear – I was up well past my bedtime when I wrote that, but I wanted to get something up ASAP so we would have at least a little discussion time before the meetings. I will be happy to clarify anything I did a poor job of explaining originally.

Now that I have had a night’s sleep, I also lean heavily toward choice B (maybe with a slight modification). If Donuts won’t trade Pottery for Ceremonial Burial, we can try to trade Bronze Working for Pottery (plus gold since Bronze Working is more expensive than Pottery). I originally was thinking we shouldn’t trade them Bronze Working because we shared a continent and didn’t want to give them a defender, but we obviously share a continent with KISS, and I doubt there are 3 civs on the same landmass.

Arguments for making the trade(s) –

We will be the early tech leader and can try to maintain the lead until we can use it.
It will put us on good terms with our early contacts.
The Donut curragh will certainly meet the KISSers fairly soon – if we don’t make the trade, we may miss the first round of trading and be backwards in tech.

Arguments against making the trade(s) –

The techs we are getting are not immediately useful to us, but the techs we are giving are useful to our rivals.
 
SUMMARY of Outcomes ... My Orders ... Update with each of my comments below ...

1. Get - Any Single Technology
Give - Alphabet
>NO

2. Get - Any Single Technology + Cash
Give - Alphabet
>NO

3. Get - Ceremonial Burial and Pottery
Give - Alphabet
>OK

Reason - The more tech we get, the more we can trade others

4. Get - Ceremonial Burial and Pottery
Give - Alphabet + Cash
>NO ... ummm maybe token 2gp :confused:

5. Get - Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code (Other)
Give - Alphabet
>OK

6. Get - Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code (Other)
Give - Alphabet + Iron Working
>NO OK but ask for cash first :evil:

7. Get - Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code (Other) + Cash
Give - Alphabet + Iron Working
>OK

Feedback ... ??????

EDIT - Strategy Updated until my last comment below ...
 
I disagree with 3 + 4. Alphabet is more expensive than Ceremonial Burial and Pottery combined, Ceremonial Burial is the most useless early tech, and we can get Pottery from the Donuts - I think we really want Warrior Code to be one of the tech we get for Alphabet.
 
So what else would we exchange Alphabet for if they only offer CB and Pot as the techs ...

Cash ? ... How much
Worker ? ... it would have to be moved up to us ... same route as their warrior

Question ... do we tell them to turn around and not come any further ???
 
The meeting as scheduled between Kentharu and Whomp will be in 45 minutes.

I don't like the idea of giving iron working in addition to alphabet. (my 2 cents)

Chamnix- your recent explanation cleared up some of my questions (and misunderstandings) Thanks for that.
 
I think we gave too much away when we said that we assumed that we had contact with them by warrior. If I were them, i would be wondering why they were saying such a thing. They could have come to a conclusion that we might have met the team that had the delay. I would have got the poll right had the team of Doughnuts not got a successful suicide curragh over. :mad: Kiss are on our continent. :dance:
 
There is some questions as to what to tell KISS about their warrior. Maybe we should say that all tech trades are dependent upon that warrior coming no further east or south.

Not a great idea - unenforceable, and if I were them I wouldn't go for it. But we are dangling Alphabet. That's a pretty meaty carrot.
 
wrt iron working ... they are most likely 5ish turns away ... not many anyway and if we get 2 techs for 1 ... I think better ... but we still have 30 minutes to talk ... I sent PM to our diplomat ... hope he touches base ... I cannot attend as no software ... does anyone else want to silently be at the meeting ... Kenaru is in charge of meeting !!! ...
 
wrt IM programmes I don't know anything ... Kenaru has set this meeting up ... he may be able to answer ... I also PMed Whomp requesting this info
 
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