British and the EU

[Winner]

The UK has many ties with the commonwealth and the US. We also have more in common with some former colonies than with some EU states.

I'm all for the EU (sans CAP) but not at the expense of all our historical alliances.

I'd love to see how would Western Europeans react if the former communist countries suddenly started to favour Russia over the Western Europe, saying they have a lot in common.

Nobody said Britain should break its historic ties, but you should at least make it clear who is more important to you. Because Continental Europeans don't like that, you're sitting on two chairs. How can they trust someone who is constantly seeking a way out? They want a sign of commitment.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Also, Czechs (and other post-communist Europeans) tend to be very distrustful of their government, while British are very ambivalent - on one hand, they're very critical of their government, on the other they'd chose it over the Brussels any day.

Bingo.

We trust our government for the most part - sure its does stupid crap, but its a democratic continutity going back 300 years that has never allowed us to be conquered or subjugated or faced armed insurrection in that time. And then we look at past european systems (not a comment on the current EU mind) and aren't impressed, and thats a feeling that can be hard to shake when asked to give it some of its powers.

I'd love to see how would Western Europeans react if the former communist countries suddenly started to favour Russia over the Western Europe, saying they have a lot in common.

False analogy, a lot of the old commonwealth colonies a) are ethnically british and b) Share the same civil and parlimentary traditions from the time of the Empire. The only ex-warsaw pact that has such ethnic ties with russia and a government harkening back to the communist era is Belarus...and what do you know, they do favour Russia .

 

[Winner]

Bingo.

We trust our government for the most part - sure its does stupid crap, but its a democratic continutity going back 300 years that has never allowed us to be conquered or subjugated or faced armed insurrection in that time. And then we look at past european systems (not a comment on the current EU mind) and aren't impressed, and thats a feeling that can be hard to shake when asked to give it some of its powers.

It feels like the American nationalism - we're the best, we have nothing to learn, the rest of the world sucks. Then they wonder why people hate them.

Are you sure you want to follow suit?

False analogy, a lot of the old commonwealth colonies a) are ethnically british and b) Share the same civil and parlimentary traditions from the time of the Empire. The only ex-warsaw pact that has such ethnic ties with russia and a government harkening back to the communist era is Belarus...and what do you know, they do favour Russia .

It's far from false, it's just hypothetical. Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Croats etc. are Slavs, and Slavs have a lot in common with regard to mentality, language, customs and so on. British have, ethnically speaking, something in common with their settler colonies, but what about India, Pakistan or the African colonies? They're totally different.

Of course that in the real world, we want Russia out of Europe as far as possible , but let's forget about it now. What I am talking about is this uncertain identity of Britain. To me, if I can speak for the Continental Europeans, it feels like you want to disassociate yourselves from us. That isn't exactly a good way how to forge a good relationship.

 

[Mirc]

Bingo.

We trust our government for the most part - sure its does stupid crap, but its a democratic continutity going back 300 years that has never allowed us to be conquered or subjugated or faced armed insurrection in that time. And then we look at past european systems (not a comment on the current EU mind) and aren't impressed, and thats a feeling that can be hard to shake when asked to give it some of its powers.

So basically, you're saying you don't trust the rest of Europe because they did get conquered or subjugated in the past 300 years while you didn't? Now that's simply silly.

 

[Winner]

So basically, you're saying you don't trust the rest of Europe because they did get conquered or subjugated in the past 300 years while you didn't? Now that's simply silly.

That's very silly. If Czechs or any other continental country behaved like that, everybody would have to build a 100 meters tall wall on their borders. We were invaded so many times by so many countries - Avars, Hungarians, Germans, Polish, Germans, Austrians, Swedes, French, Russians, Germans, Russians (yeah, it's kinda evergreen here)...

 

[GinandTonic]

So basically, you're saying you don't trust the rest of Europe because they did get conquered or subjugated in the past 300 years while you didn't? Now that's simply silly.

No it's more a sense that we have had a very stable system for hundreds of years, while Europe has got awfully ecited about various "isms".

France kills tens of thousands of aristos, we restrict the monarchy to waving-duty, and opening things. Communism sweeps Europe, we found the NHS. Fascism sweeps Europe, we note it's impact on train time-tables.

We have a long history of stability, and watching the instability on the continent. This latest project the contentials are so excited about actually looks like it could be a winner, but we have resevations about excessive change. We want to take this calmly and slowly and not have it explode in our faces.

 

[Winner]

No it's more a sense that we have had a very stable system for hundreds of years, while Europe has got awfully ecited about various "isms".

France kills tens of thousands of aristos, we restrict the monarchy to waving-duty, and opening things. Communism sweeps Europe, we found the NHS. Fascism sweeps Europe, we note it's impact on train time-tables.

We have a long history of stability, and watching the instability on the continent. This latest project the contentials are so excited about actually looks like it could be a winner, but we have resevations about excessive change. We want to take this calmly and slowly and not have it explode in our faces.

The problem is we don't want to wait another 300 years for the British approval

 

[Disenfrancised]

It feels like the American nationalism - we're the best, we have nothing to learn, the rest of the world sucks. Then they wonder why people hate them.

Are you sure you want to follow suit?

Follow suit? Where do you think the Americans got it from ? Though the British attitude to being hated was more of a - "so what?".

We do have lots to learn and have incorperated many things from europe and the world...introducing them via modifications to our current system. Also i'm not saying the attitude is right or that we have nothing to learn, just that that is sometimes what it feels like, and that the pace of the march towards a european superstate is too fast or that it feels worryingly inevitable.

but what about India, Pakistan or the African colonies? They're totally different.

Well those ones we are nice to because we owe them a) apologies and b) gratitude for all they stuff they did/were made to do. Also we favoured their migration back when the eastern europeans were under the iron curtain - are we meant to say to them "Thanks for the help in rebuilding our economy, but we have cool new friends now and they aren't keen on the darkies".

What I am talking about is this uncertain identity of Britain.

Actually I think the problem is a too certain indentity as 'Britain' rather than anything else, and we do feel a certain hostility from europe (read: France). Plus when 'continential europeans' talk about "it feels like you want to disassociate yourselves from us" that creates soemthing of a self-fufilling prophecy and worsens the situation. If everyone just shut the hell up about culture and just worked to make the EU the best economic and free-moving unit it could be, then in a generation or two of interaction and easy travel these divides might fade.

 

[Disenfrancised]

This really isn't meant as a jab at you Winner, but I just found the juxataposition really funny

The fact that its a churchhill quote is merely icing on the cake .

 

[bathsheba666]

This reminds me of the old, old Times headline:

"Fog in the Channel. Continent Isolated"

 

[Bast]

Some of them think they have more in common with the Commonwealth countries than the continental Europe itself. That's just sad.

This I don't agree with. Some of them do have more in common with the Commonwealth countries. The language for one, another is the legal system etc... The British Empire is no longer there but the Commonwealth still is. There are many Brits in countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Britain has only relied on continently Europe in the last few decades before it has always looked to the rest of the world. Why should it change so suddenly?

 

[StarWorms]

Britain's best selling newspapers are The Sun and The Daily Mail which certainly explains much about why the myth of the evil-EU just doesn't go away.

Are you sure? I thought it was the Daily Telegraph. And we all know why the Sun is a big seller.

Does it matter? We still get the money from it...

Are you sure about that?

Which is good, as we have a labour shortage.

And a housing shortage, and yet they get free housing.

Really? link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint_glass#United_Kingdom_law

 

[Winner]

This I don't agree with. Some of them do have more in common with the Commonwealth countries. The language for one, another is the legal system etc... The British Empire is no longer there but the Commonwealth still is. There are many Brits in countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Britain has only relied on continently Europe in the last few decades before it has always looked to the rest of the world. Why should it change so suddenly?

World has changed. It's all well and good that you're still buddies, but for Britain, the future lies in Europe. One look at the map makes that very clear.

 

[Winner]

This really isn't meant as a jab at you Winner, but I just found the juxataposition really funny

The fact that its a churchhill quote is merely icing on the cake .

Continental Europeans have tolerated the British attitude for decades, but their patience is growing thin

 

[Truronian]

Are you sure? I thought it was the Daily Telegraph. And we all know why the Sun is a big seller.

They are the top two... Maybe the Daily Telegraph is the top-selling broadsheet?

Are you sure about that?

Think so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_sea_oil#Licensing

And a housing shortage, and yet they get free housing.

That's not a problem with the EU/immigration, that's down to our government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint_glass#United_Kingdom_law

Seems silly, but nothing I'd leave the EU over.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

On the one hand, having all but begged our way in, in the face of De Gaulle foolishly vetoing our membership, we've earned the right to be a bit of a drama queen about the EU.

On the other hand, although many a noise is made complaining about the EU, only anachronistic, unelectable old dinosaurs take it seriously. The Tories have run themselves into the ground two elections running ranting about the EU.

 

[EdwardTking]

World has changed. It's all well and good that you're still buddies, but for Britain, the future lies in Europe. One look at the map makes that very clear.

Yes; there is that blue stuff called sea encircling Britain.

There is no reason why us large islanders should think
like the inhabitants of a land locked small Republic.

 

[Oruc]

I'm not too fond of the EU. Most of the pro-EU people like to say it will lead to a European Superstate,

Very Pro-E.U Brit here.

Together, we are much stronger and wealthier.

I hope to see a united European state one day!

like this guy and I really don't want that.
It would be better if it was a free trade thing, but we shouldn't sacrifice our ties to the rest of the Anglo-sphere to get it.

EDIT: I dont care about East European immigrations as long as they come here to work.

 

[kryszcztov]

This I don't agree with. Some of them do have more in common with the Commonwealth countries. The language for one, another is the legal system etc... The British Empire is no longer there but the Commonwealth still is. There are many Brits in countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Britain has only relied on continently Europe in the last few decades before it has always looked to the rest of the world. Why should it change so suddenly?

So what ? France also has her "Francophonie", even if it's less intense and smaller. We have very important ties with our French-speaking cousins from Quebec, but that doesn't detract us from going full EU.

Meh, couldn't England just play cricket with her former colonies and leave the rest to Europe ?

About de Gaulle : I'm with him. I think he foresaw the thing all way long.

 

[luiz]

About de Gaulle : I'm with him. I think he foresaw the thing all way long.

De Gaulle was with the british euro-skeptics, considering that he wanted to keep the UK away from the EU.

Anyway, while I think the EU is a great idea, I don't see why some of the posters here adopt a "with us or against us" attitude. So what if the UK wants to stay part of the free-trade/free-movement zone, but do not wish to further integrate politically? That is not a problem for anybody, it's a matter of political choice. And quite frankly I don't see much point in political integration; the important thing here is the free movement of goods, capital and people and I doubt most or even many britons are against that.

The EU could easily have different levels of integration for different associates, in fact this could be a good idea when integrating coutries further East like Turkey.