PT is helpful here without waiting 16 turns for the GS from university. But the risk of putting all those hammers into wonders while they can be put into more triremes. Thats why I assume no wonder. Only if the capital has marble or playing Egypt, the wonder loss cash conversion may be worthwhile to try to get cash for upgrade. ( I tried to build GLH with non cap marble city in our games but end up finishing it even delayed for a library)
Broad brush early game strategy talk
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PT is helpful here without waiting 16 turns for the GS from university. But the risk of putting all those hammers into wonders while they can be put into more triremes. Thats why I assume no wonder. Only if the capital has marble or playing Egypt, the wonder loss cash conversion may be worthwhile to try to get cash for upgrade. ( I tried to build GLH with non cap marble city in our games but end up finishing it even delayed for a library)
Did i say that i hard built it? Liberty finisher maybe?
It has a double effect : free PT--->free gs(no university needed)--->more hammers for triremes
For sure, you can always take 10-15 more turns of waiting and go honor instead...
Did i say that i hard built it? Liberty finisher maybe?
It has a double effect : free PT--->free gs(no university needed)--->more hammers for triremes
For sure, you can always take 10-15 more turns of waiting and go honor instead...
Without upgrade discount, it cost 265 each. I guess cash is more important in this case. Plus the XP bonus to get to logistics sooner. Soon getting navigation sooner vs. hammer and cash saving, I think the later has long term advantages.
Situations where going honor are limited. I agree when you play under these limitations but i disagree otherwise(i.e : pretty isolated, playing England, etc). Because before Navigation there is many strategies that let you a chance to kill a civ before that point(assuming access from optics).
The last FFA EPIC GAME is certainly a great example at when using honor for your profit.
donhenriko
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Imho, honor is useless when playing FFA MP.
You might kill your first and even your second neighbor, but it will hamper your growth so much that you are doomed to fall behind in tech eventually.
You might kill your first and even your second neighbor, but it will hamper your growth so much that you are doomed to fall behind in tech eventually.
Silverfuturist
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But i forgot yours!
If you start on a watered map and are clustered on a tiny land, try go 2 cities with the Honor tree. Beeline bronze working and work on the Colossus. Get more gold among the way and work on getting Navigation as fast as possible. Build promos buildings in your capital and build some triremes before Navigation. You can gain very high promoted ships and you can litterally be unbeatable if you can reach 3 ranged, double attack and move after attacking...god this is certainly the most earliest OP situation you can have against humans. You are litterally unbeatable.
Watch the FFA EPIC GAME under my sig to see all the mess that EEE_boy did to me
For a 4 cities sword rush strategy, watch the GOTM #31. The initial set-up is pretty similar than against humans excepted that you CAN'T sell them borders and luxs
I tested out the honor tree and compared it to tradition/commerce. Perhaps there is a better way to do honor (I would like to hear it), but this is my experience so far:
By going tradition I can fill out the entire tree plus 2 commerce (3 if I get Oracle) in time for the frigate rush. Without Orcale I get the +3 hammer policy during my conquroring. +3 hammers/coastal city is HUGE. With honor you get the tree and that is all. +3 culture trad open + free temple really adds up. The +2 cultre garrisaon for honor comes a few policies in, and you have to hard build a temple if you want it.
Gold: I can't base a strategy upon getting an early wonder like Collosus. Water map = good players will be gunning for it. Plus going Collosus delays Writing/Nat College/techs. I am able to get Navigation earlier with Tradition/Commerce going straight tech than honor. The honor won't matter if Frigates are there to sink the triremes and take the cities.
I did try a Collosus rush, and compared to the honor cheap upgrade policy, tradition/commerce gave me about the same amount of upgrades. Trad gold bonus in capital + commerce opener really adds up. Bigger population also = more tiles to work for gold.
Production: More population = more hammers. I build barracks and heroic epic in capital before making triremes, taking sea bonus makes a big diff.
Combat: with commerce, my ships see farther and move faster than honor (assuming no great lighthouse or England in the mix.) Also it means I can take more cities before other players get frigates also. I don't know if the honor strat has time for barracks/heroic epic. Also, the double honor experience requires combat - I don't think honor players will be using their triremes to fight, just frigates. So if I get frigates first and find their capital, the double experience policy is worthless. Even so, their frigates must survive many battles (and not have to use the XP to heal) to get the sweet promotions.
If there is enough land, maybe a liberty rush could work as well as tradition (maybe even better if the land is great?) My formula doesn't require wonders, as working the University will produce a great scientist in time for my build order to finish.
If somebody thinks they have a good honor strat, I would like to play them in a duel (FFA if we get enough players) to see if honor can come in time to beat my plan.
Last year I had an island duel with KiffeleBiffe, a top 10 league player. The game was very close. I got to the iron island with my settler 1 turn before him! If he got there first he would have won, but with my 6 frigates vs his 2, I won handily (I had zero iron at cap, he had a 2 spot.)
KiffeLesBiffles
Do you like dogs?
Honor is sometime useful after liberty when you think you can win with medieval/renaissance units (especially UU like Longbows or Songhai knights). For early conquest, the must-have Social Policy is not honor, but, of course, our good old liberty REX opening.
Hum... First, it is KiffeLesBiffles, not kiffeLeBiffle! Second, It was not a duel, more like CTON, You did got me this time. But my land sucked, I had like 5 cities and only 2 irons... And I miss this one tile island with 6 irons for only 1 turn. But I can remember, you had more cash than me.
IMO, frigates should be forbiden in MP: There are the most unbalanced unit of the game! They are no reason to do something else than frigates rush in mid game even in map like inland sea or pangea... WTH? Have 3 frigates ready before your main opponent and you can kill it easily. Combat between frigates are just pure clickfest. And, last but not least, SotL make england so OP in sea (they are already OP on land with longbows).
For the frigate rush strat itself, All Quiet On the Western Front... I do liberty and, as usual, many cities. I build Hagia+PT with the liberty finisher or I take a scientist if I am not first. Many cities stack well with +3 prod for commerce later on.
But one more time, frigates should be forbiden !
KiffeLesBiffles
Do you like dogs?
Another possible rule: frigates can only shoot units, not cities: they still remain usefull for siege or sea domination, but you cant conquer the whole world with 5 frigates + One scout !
In FFA games there is often barbs and cs. You can get a lot of xp from them as triremes before they upgrade. Especially at standard speed
Sounds fair. You also need strong land units.
donhenriko
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In NQ style FFAs (which is the only thing I play) you (next to) never get to kill all players with medieval/renaissance units. Therefore, when finishing the liberty tree, it makes more sense to start on the commerce (or even tradition) tree. Commerce will give you more gold for all the 3 first policies selected (indirectly with mercantilism), which lets you have a bigger army; honor only becomes interesting after 3 policies (military tradition +1.5 xp) Although the honor finisher is very good, you almost never get to fill it up: When you reach the renaissance era, you must pick rationalism (unfortunatly) to keep up with the best players in tech, or perish. Therefore, honor is still useless. (in NQ FFAs, IMHO)
Silverfuturist
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Sorry Kiffe, did the post in a hurry! I remember now, there were other players, but essentially it was a duel because none of them had a frigate plan so it was between you and me.
KiffeLesBiffles
Do you like dogs?
Personnaly, I dont build library before having at least 4 pops in city (maybe earlier if I want the NC). With 4 pop, the library give you 2 science = As much science as the colisseum (it gives you 2 pop)....
its impossible to talk about "strategies" without a definied setting.
Obvioulsy I (and every other good player= play a duel totaly different as a 6+ player ffa/cton.
All the posts in this thread makes as much sense as a conversation of 15 different types of apes. Moderator Action: You could have choosen a better, less trollish comparison.
A general rule of thumb in civ5 mp is that: bigger is better! Get as many cities as u can and have them grow as big as possible.
In most cases its better to build a happy building to have your city grow to f.e. a Library.
In most cases its better to build 5 settlers instead of NC
In most cases its better to kill your neightbour and let his puppets produce gold instead of building markets.
You get the general idea?
Cities and puppulation give everything - science gold and production - bigger is just better.
Obvioulsy I (and every other good player= play a duel totaly different as a 6+ player ffa/cton.
All the posts in this thread makes as much sense as a conversation of 15 different types of apes. Moderator Action: You could have choosen a better, less trollish comparison.
A general rule of thumb in civ5 mp is that: bigger is better! Get as many cities as u can and have them grow as big as possible.
In most cases its better to build a happy building to have your city grow to f.e. a Library.
In most cases its better to build 5 settlers instead of NC
In most cases its better to kill your neightbour and let his puppets produce gold instead of building markets.
You get the general idea?
Cities and puppulation give everything - science gold and production - bigger is just better.
donhenriko
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Don't you get it?? You are the ape!
Being good at duels does not give you the right to be excessively rude and condescending in every post you make, but you obviously you think so.
You haven't posted here in months, but the first thing you do is of course to insult everyone. What is wrong with you? Do you have psychological issues???
I wish that you would perish slowly from this Earth, so that nobody needs to listen to our obvious BS anymore.
Moderator Action: This is the most uncivil post in quite some time, and nobody here appreciates such behaviour.
Adreno
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The very first MP game I was supposed to play in, tommynt was there and after I asked for help finding my SteamID, he said he refuses to play with such a noob who can't even follow simple instructions. I thought it was funny, a guy with a 100 game win streak "refusing to play with noobs".
On a related topic, very frustrating to play these top guys. I was just in a FFA with fredodo and others, the second game tonight where I'm crippled with a weak civ and hang around for hours with a 0 chance of winning.
The battle I had earlier is worthy of a recap:
I was England, fredodo was adjacent to me and I decided to attack him as soon as I got longbows. His closest city was in a really defensive position where I could only realistically melee it from only 1 tile, but I could easily position longbows to bomb it. Within 2 turns I had the city down to 1 health, and used the warrior to take it. However, before I had time to choose whether to puppet or raze, he insta attacks it with 2 legionnaires, and even tho the city regained 50% health upon capture, the 2 units are enough for him to retake it.
After that I was unable to choose what to produce in my own cities, nothing happened when I tried to click the buttons. When I talked about it in chat everyone just said the game works for them, so no reload etc. After a few turns the popup for "you have captured antium" appears again, apparently that caused the bug (recapturing before I could choose action). So I clicked "raze city" just to see if the game starts working. It does, I can control my cities again, but because I chose "raze" instead of "puppet", my next social policy is now 40 turns away! Ridiculous, because I held the city for 2 seconds I killed my policy trees for the rest of the game!
Anyway, I have a horseman positioned to take the city again. So I bomb it with longbows, then select the horseman, click it to attack city. Now, during that 500ms delay that occurs between giving a command, and the unit actually performing the action, fredodo managed to move his legionnaire to the grassland tile between his city and my horse. So when my horse finally decides to attack the city, its original pathway is blocked, so it decides to go around the mountain. It hops over a river, so I lose all movement points. I try to shoot the legionnaire that was blocking the way, but he moves it back into the city before the arrows take off. Then he attacks my horseman with his knight and kills it in 1 attack. I try to shoot his knight, but again, he just moves it back before my units do what I tell them to do.
In the next 5 turns he proceeded to kill my army, despite the fact that I had LONGBOWS and MORE UNITS. His army was even split on 2 fronts as he was warring with egypt. He still crushed me. While I try to retreat from his knights with the only 2 military units I had left in the game, he offered me peace, left my puni civ in the game, and started warring with other players.
I don't get how players like Universalsoldier and fredodo win every clickfest. Even when I'm raping numpad to move at the beginning of the turn they still win every single instance. Also they are able to move multiple units at the end of each turn. When I try to do that some units move, some don't. Don't understand what causes that either.
On a related topic, very frustrating to play these top guys. I was just in a FFA with fredodo and others, the second game tonight where I'm crippled with a weak civ and hang around for hours with a 0 chance of winning.
The battle I had earlier is worthy of a recap:
I was England, fredodo was adjacent to me and I decided to attack him as soon as I got longbows. His closest city was in a really defensive position where I could only realistically melee it from only 1 tile, but I could easily position longbows to bomb it. Within 2 turns I had the city down to 1 health, and used the warrior to take it. However, before I had time to choose whether to puppet or raze, he insta attacks it with 2 legionnaires, and even tho the city regained 50% health upon capture, the 2 units are enough for him to retake it.
After that I was unable to choose what to produce in my own cities, nothing happened when I tried to click the buttons. When I talked about it in chat everyone just said the game works for them, so no reload etc. After a few turns the popup for "you have captured antium" appears again, apparently that caused the bug (recapturing before I could choose action). So I clicked "raze city" just to see if the game starts working. It does, I can control my cities again, but because I chose "raze" instead of "puppet", my next social policy is now 40 turns away! Ridiculous, because I held the city for 2 seconds I killed my policy trees for the rest of the game!
Anyway, I have a horseman positioned to take the city again. So I bomb it with longbows, then select the horseman, click it to attack city. Now, during that 500ms delay that occurs between giving a command, and the unit actually performing the action, fredodo managed to move his legionnaire to the grassland tile between his city and my horse. So when my horse finally decides to attack the city, its original pathway is blocked, so it decides to go around the mountain. It hops over a river, so I lose all movement points. I try to shoot the legionnaire that was blocking the way, but he moves it back into the city before the arrows take off. Then he attacks my horseman with his knight and kills it in 1 attack. I try to shoot his knight, but again, he just moves it back before my units do what I tell them to do.
In the next 5 turns he proceeded to kill my army, despite the fact that I had LONGBOWS and MORE UNITS. His army was even split on 2 fronts as he was warring with egypt. He still crushed me. While I try to retreat from his knights with the only 2 military units I had left in the game, he offered me peace, left my puni civ in the game, and started warring with other players.
I don't get how players like Universalsoldier and fredodo win every clickfest. Even when I'm raping numpad to move at the beginning of the turn they still win every single instance. Also they are able to move multiple units at the end of each turn. When I try to do that some units move, some don't. Don't understand what causes that either.
Silverfuturist
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Good post, it summarizes how so many people new to multiplayer feel.
There is a secret, which I shall reveal to the public: shift+click so the unit moves at the end of the turn.
1. Select unit that has not moved yet
2. hold shift key down
3. right click on the place you want to go (can be a tile or attacking something)
4. the move will be queued up and happen at the very end of your turn automatically
5. computer is moving, not human, nothing can beat it
6. you can select many units.
So if you want to move in for an attack: shift-click to select your entire army's movements. At end of turn, magically the opponent will see an entire army jump at them. Because you have your next moves prepared in your head and they are surprised, you can often get to move again for strong impact.
Something else I consider a "trade-secret" - strategic view. Perhaps it is faster than normal view (it seemed to speed me up) or it is just that I am able to visualize the game like a chess board. When I first played duels/2x2 I got crushed by good playas because I didn't know where to place units, you place them differently than SP. I have witnessed Fredodo's battling skills go up several notches since I started playing him, he didn't start off at his level.
ALSO... some people just have faster hardware set-ups... one league player bought a $2000 new PC to improve his speed.
Adreno
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Good post, it summarizes how so many people new to multiplayer feel.
There is a secret, which I shall reveal to the public: shift+click so the unit moves at the end of the turn.
1. Select unit that has not moved yet
2. hold shift key down
3. right click on the place you want to go (can be a tile or attacking something)
4. the move will be queued up and happen at the very end of your turn automatically
5. computer is moving, not human, nothing can beat it
6. you can select many units.
So if you want to move in for an attack: shift-click to select your entire army's movements. At end of turn, magically the opponent will see an entire army jump at them. Because you have your next moves prepared in your head and they are surprised, you can often get to move again for strong impact.
Something else I consider a "trade-secret" - strategic view. Perhaps it is faster than normal view (it seemed to speed me up) or it is just that I am able to visualize the game like a chess board. When I first played duels/2x2 I got crushed by good playas because I didn't know where to place units, you place them differently than SP. I have witnessed Fredodo's battling skills go up several notches since I started playing him, he didn't start off at his level.
ALSO... some people just have faster hardware set-ups... one league player bought a $2000 new PC to improve his speed.
I will try the strategic view and see if it improves speed. The shift click thing isn't new to me, that's what I was talking about when I mentioned moving units at the end of the turn. What bugs me is that sometimes the units just stay in place, and I can't figure out why. Yet this never seems to happen to fredodo or universal, who always move units perfectly and with perfect timing. When I try to do the shift click for multiple units it randomly works and randomly doesn't.
Good post, it summarizes how so many people new to multiplayer feel.
There is a secret, which I shall reveal to the public: shift+click so the unit moves at the end of the turn.
1. Select unit that has not moved yet
2. hold shift key down
3. right click on the place you want to go (can be a tile or attacking something)
4. the move will be queued up and happen at the very end of your turn automatically
5. computer is moving, not human, nothing can beat it
6. you can select many units.
So if you want to move in for an attack: shift-click to select your entire army's movements. At end of turn, magically the opponent will see an entire army jump at them. Because you have your next moves prepared in your head and they are surprised, you can often get to move again for strong impact.
Something else I consider a "trade-secret" - strategic view. Perhaps it is faster than normal view (it seemed to speed me up) or it is just that I am able to visualize the game like a chess board. When I first played duels/2x2 I got crushed by good playas because I didn't know where to place units, you place them differently than SP. I have witnessed Fredodo's battling skills go up several notches since I started playing him, he didn't start off at his level.
ALSO... some people just have faster hardware set-ups... one league player bought a $2000 new PC to improve his speed.
Good tips, thanks.
Surely connection speed is more important than hardware for winning click races though?
And, yo, Adreno, you were in my game on Saturday I believe. You completely messed up my game plan by your unwarranted aggression, and we all got pwned by daddycool
. Good to see you around.Silverfuturist
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Good tips, thanks.
Surely connection speed is more important than hardware for winning click races though?
And, yo, Adreno, you were in my game on Saturday I believe. You completely messed up my game plan by your unwarranted aggression, and we all got pwned by daddycool
I would also think that connection speed is more important, but this player got a LOT faster with his new PC... perhaps it was the placebo effect, where he played faster because he percieved his hardware is faster so it made him more confident and relaxed?
When they stay its because there is an order conflict. Lets say u got 6-7 units u want to move. Now us elect the first one and shift klick. The second, shift klick the third etc. Now when selecting the 6th u choose a tile that are already taken by the first unit (that is where u shift klicked u r first unit to move to). That will couse the unit not to move. Second thing is if opponent has shift klicked to I am not sure what unit movments they execute first. But sometimes the movment u u shift klicked when executed now is blocked by the zone of control of an enemy unit that moved at the end of turn and therefore the move cant be executed.
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