Broader Alignments

[Breez]

How did I miss this thread in Feb...

I love the stuff Vehem outlined on Page one!

 

[far_wanderer]

Good to see discussion of improving Broader Alignments again. From a similar discussion in the FF+ forums, my take on the other flaw that needs work:

The basic problem is that broader alignments (and most suggested improvements to it) only changes half of the equation. It changes the things you can do to affect your alignment into a sliding scale, but not the things your alignment affects. Regardless of the point values that contribute to it, alignment remains a straight Good/Neutral/Evil split, and everything that is based on your alignment only pays attention to those three possible states. I think that that division needs just as much expansion if Broader Alignments is going to be improved.

 

[Iceciro]

IMHO there are two issues.

1) There should be differences within civilizations and religions for having a differing alignment. Good OO should get "Inspired" prophets instead of asylums and crazed attackers. Evil Order should get Fanatics instead of Crusaders, people willing to kill everybody to maintain Order (think: Order = Lawful. But Crusaders = Lawful Good, Fanatics = Lawful Evil, Justicars = Lawful Neutral.)

Then, have the DLL work in place so that running slavery for a long time does more than dipping into evil while it's being run, that sort of thing. Buying and Selling slaves is also evil.
Building Herbalists and Infirmaries are good. Razing cottages is bad (people live in them!) Running Republic is good over time. Waring with a Good civ makes you eviler by a bit if you start it.

Perhaps part of the issue is that there should be more good civic choices that provide you with a big bonus like Slavery does for evil. I'd like to say Social Order but 1) It requires you to be in Order, and 2) I've used Social Order for evil pretty often, using military force to keep the peasants quiet so the vampires can feast.

The main issue I have right now is that there would be a lot of stretching to make the Ashen Veil work as Good. At least as neutral you could have a religion of apathy or something.

Broader Alignments is awesome, but the DLL work for changes over time should be done, and each side needs to be looked at. There's a lot of art to be done for say, just order to have Evil and Neutral variants, too.

 

[UNIT 666]

Alignment affecting unit flavours (i.e. your OO example, Iceciro) would be a whole lot of work (new art, units, spells, etc) and it doesn't really make sense to me. The idea is more, I think, that the general goal of the civilization would be different depending on the alignment, even though the means to that goal are the same. What are good heroes? Heroes. What are evil heroes? Heroes. Neutral? Well, heck, who even cares about neutral.

In the end, the player is the one that decides how his civilization is ruled. Civics, alignment, religion, background, leader, et cetera, are all tools that aid the player in thinking how it is run. So, Iceciro, what you're saying about a 'good' Ashen Veil... well, it won't happen. The Ashen Veil does not change, nor does any other religion. Plus, it can be adopted for several reasons - seeking Armageddon, power, knowledge, or so on. The Ashen Veil religion does not change, regardless of your alignment - it is your civilization's alignment as a whole, not the alignment of your religion. They are two separate things.

What I would seek from Broader Alignments is simply an option that makes it so that many actions influence the civilization's alignment, but do not decide it. Basically, exactly what Vehem detailed.


I only have one curiosity yet unanswered: how would this alignment thing affect civilizations like the Mercurians and the Infernals, though? Would they have basic modifiers (+10/-10 or somesuch) to represent how the leader is dedicated to his or her vision for the civilization? And what about Sabathiel, Cassiel, Os-Gabella, and other leaders like that? :l

 

[far_wanderer]

The main issue I have right now is that there would be a lot of stretching to make the Ashen Veil work as Good. At least as neutral you could have a religion of apathy or something.

Good AV would be people who follow it out of a desire for power to accomplish good things, without understanding the hidden dangers of what they do. That's an important thing about the lore of AV that often gets forgotten - very few of the people that follow it are aware of the true ramifications.

 

[Iceciro]

Alright, but while the religion may not change the way your civilization would interact with it would. A civilization that is evil is not going to produce the same sort of chivalrous crusader units a good one will, just like they produce Eidolons instead of Paladins.

 

[xienwolf]

I think a fair amount of the religions being on the "wrong" alignment suddenly will have to be up to the player writing their own personal story and justification. As far as things go within the game, they just happen to be Good/AV or Evil/Order.


For Mercurian/Infernal, who have a definite predisposition, they might be forced to keep a positive/negative net score, or just allowed to drift and be rationalized however the player wants just like everyone else.

 

[WarKirby]

I could definitely see an evil Order. Lawful Evil

WBut what with all the wanton human sacrifice and demon wirship, It's kind of hard to see how OO and AV could be good. I mean, if you want power to do good things, why not get Good power? That Bless spell is pretty mean, and paladins are awesome units. A lot of disciple units of good religions have the power to do other nonviolent good things, like paladins, crusaders, paramanders, et al, have Medic promotions as well, reflecting that they spend some of their time healing he sick and wounded, as well as Smiting Evil

 

[kenken244]

But if you do it right, human sacrifice and demon pacts will move you towards evil, and you probably would not be able to be good when using the AV's evilest mechanics.

 

[Iceciro]

IIRC OO priests have Medic promotions too.

And Tsunami. Delicious Tsunami.

 

[far_wanderer]

I think a fair amount of the religions being on the "wrong" alignment suddenly will have to be up to the player writing their own personal story and justification. As far as things go within the game, they just happen to be Good/AV or Evil/Order.


For Mercurian/Infernal, who have a definite predisposition, they might be forced to keep a positive/negative net score, or just allowed to drift and be rationalized however the player wants just like everyone else.

A neat way to do Mercurian/Infernal alignments would be to have an adjustment every time an Angel or Mane spawns. So, as long as they're at the forefront of a vast mass of worshipers (intentional or otherwise), their alignment stays fairly well fixed. But, if the mortal support dries up, they have to start improvising and can fall away from their ideals.

 

[Treason]

Remnants of a journal found on the body of an Ashen Veil follower.

"....oud to stand ready with those of my brethren who have taken up arms to join with the heavenly host against the Hellspawn. To see the bright wings of the angels shine in the daylight, to see their fierce blades flash and hew a path through the twisted forms before us is a sight few mortals could imagine, let alone have the privilege of adding their own arm to the task..."

"...days of battle, the cries of the wounded and dying for mercy, for the pain to end, for aid, have etched themselves upon my soul. I fear I shall never find a night's peaceful rest, should I survive this war..."

"Besium has shown his frightful visage, and his presence inspires our flagging efforts. The litters of our wounded stream past, when I saw the Archangel step up to that of one of the most frightfully wounded. I could hear the man's weak pleadings for an end to the pain, and then the chilling replay as the angel's sword quickly bit into the man's chest. A mercy stroke, as I had delivered often enough to my failing and fallen comrades.
Still..why does the sight now bother me, as it had never done, before?
..I must cleanse myself of this disturbance. We did not wade through Hell it's self to fall victim our own mortal weaknesses now..."

"...ordes without end! A sea of gibbering, fanged monstrosities each time we advance over the next hill or turn the next bend in the poisoned waters of the rivers that cut through the Hellscape that was once pristine pasture lands. I had hoped to never see the sight of Hell with mine own eyes ever again..but now that I have, it is a strange comfort. We cut our way through these lands, once before...we can do so again."

" ..Cowards, the lot of them! Our numbers are few and they lessen with each passing day! Besium's will that we take up the demon's own weapons to use for their ruin is nothing but the justice it plainly is! For all that it disgusts me to touch these vile blades and axes, the thought of the pain they've inflicted, turned back upon those who so gleefully distributed death just hours before fills me with a righteous purpose I know to be right.."

" Success! We have overcome the city of the accursed Sheim and torn open the doors to their foul Temple to the Veil. Inside, we found the hideous remains of those unfortunates that had fallen into their hands, sacrificed to their demon masters in the hopes of turning defeat into victory. I pity them and their delusional madness that led them to give up their souls to the demons. Even as we ransack the tomes and scrolls tucked away into the library of this Temple, I can not help but think that if they had but followed the example of the Amurites, an example I had thought madness until seeing the truth of their ways through this war, and but taken the knowledge gleaned from the abominations to use and not given in to their whispering temptations, we would not have been called to end their lives.."

" ..rders are carried out. Those dissenters who raised objection and refusal to implement the Rites taken from the tomes have been put down by the sword. Just as we did during our sojourn in Hell, to keep our ranks and souls pure, so do we now, when Hell has come upon Erebus.."

 

[Neomega]

where can I get a look at the alignment system as it currently stands?

 

[Bahmo]

Indeed, but would he not have been percieved as a better man if he were able to talk hitler out of his conquest ?

Even if he had talked him out of conquering new territories militarily, Hitler would still be there to slaughter his own people. I thus deem him a better man for realizing Hitler had to be eliminated militarily.

The comparison to Dick Cheney is more problematic. You could definitely compare Saddam's regime to the fascist powers in WWII, but Germany and Italy were peaceful once defeated, while in Iraq, the real "evil" perpetrated by Cheney and co. could be considered negligence rather than war. The Lawful Evil regime was knocked out, but there weren't enough measures taken to prevent a Chaotic Evil situation from taking over.

So about FFH's alignment--did the every-turn ticker ever get implemented? Because the first thing I do when I download this mod is adjust alignment modifiers, but I wonder if that can break the game?

 

[deadliver]

BA is obviously important, is there a dev master list out there with rough balancing for most categories not already used in the mod? If so, please post it so the community can help out.

If not, a spreadsheet should be posted to help the modders out. As sexy as it is coming up with groups of balanced numbers, many of us including the actual modders could not start a project for this immediately because they are busy dammit. Anyone willing to start a thread for completing BA? An spreadsheet listing all the categories is all it would take to start a real debate on whether or not the numbers make sense. There is already a clear scale for determining alignment, we just need to come up with the numbers.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

I could definitely see an evil Order. Lawful Evil

WBut what with all the wanton human sacrifice and demon wirship, It's kind of hard to see how OO and AV could be good. I mean, if you want power to do good things, why not get Good power? That Bless spell is pretty mean, and paladins are awesome units. A lot of disciple units of good religions have the power to do other nonviolent good things, like paladins, crusaders, paramanders, et al, have Medic promotions as well, reflecting that they spend some of their time healing he sick and wounded, as well as Smiting Evil

AV is more about someone using the power for good, even at the risk of being corrupted themselves. A real-life equivalent might be someone who takes steroids/growth hormones to buff up so that they can defend themselves/others from bullies or what not, even though the imbalance of hormones often makes those without proper self-control tend to be more aggressive. You can master it with enough will, but many fall victim to their own bodies.

Octopus Overlords is a different matter. For one, they tend towards insane, not evil so much. Sacrificing for the Drown could be seen as giving someone eternal life of sorts, or a alternative to other punishments. The Overlords themselves could be viewed as some being 'good', others evil, but all worthy of respect, just like the sea. Insane good, insane neutral, or insane evil, and so on.

 

[KillerClowns]

Octopus Overlords is a different matter. For one, they tend towards insane, not evil so much. Sacrificing for the Drown could be seen as giving someone eternal life of sorts, or a alternative to other punishments. The Overlords themselves could be viewed as some being 'good', others evil, but all worthy of respect, just like the sea. Insane good, insane neutral, or insane evil, and so on.

Regarding the Overlords: I always imagined that neutral Overlords civs could create drown by offering it as a non-standard method of death/burial to the suicidal and those about to die anyways. An old warrior might be more inclined to go out that way than die slowly of old age on a bed, for instance, and he'd be able to serve his country (well, his body would) after death. Or it could be seen as an honor, as it was in some Mesoamerican civilizations, to be made into a drown. Something one competes for, with great ritual preparation upon being chosen, and gifts of wine, drugs, and women (or men) showered upon the Chosen Ones during the time leading up to the sacrifice.

 

[MrPopov]

Declaring war with whom you have good relations should be an evil act.

Giving aid to good and neutral nations when they ask should be a good act.

Joining wars with good civs against neutral or evil civs with which you have a bad relation should be a good act (not sure on this one actually)

 

[Lone Wolf]

Declaring war with whom you have good relations should be an evil act.

Human player can't have an attitude-defined relationship with anyone (so what of Ethne was friendly towards me, I claim that I was furious with her all that time). If you are a Good player who declares war on another Good player, that should definitely make you less good.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Regarding the Overlords: I always imagined that neutral Overlords civs could create drown by offering it as a non-standard method of death/burial to the suicidal and those about to die anyways. An old warrior might be more inclined to go out that way than die slowly of old age on a bed, for instance, and he'd be able to serve his country (well, his body would) after death. Or it could be seen as an honor, as it was in some Mesoamerican civilizations, to be made into a drown. Something one competes for, with great ritual preparation upon being chosen, and gifts of wine, drugs, and women (or men) showered upon the Chosen Ones during the time leading up to the sacrifice.

Indeed, exactly what I was thinking in terms of. I think it's even been written that Drown are still self-aware, even if not in control, and so a benign OO cult might even allow them more connection with their family.


It's not even that hard to rethink of Asylums as something more benign in a better society. Those spoken to by the Overlords go crazy, yes. But what they are told could be important for all of us; the patterns of the seas, the means to use it to our advantage, warnings and prophesies. It makes sense to house the crazed in a comfortable institution in which our priests can look after them and care for them, separating diamonds of importance from the delusions. And of course, other crazed members of society can also be sent to an area well equipped to handle them.