Brothels now legal in Canada

[JollyRoger]

Actually, prostitution benefits those of us that have no problem obtaining sex via conventional means - you are not paying so much for sex as you are paying for the woman to not overstay her welcome.

 

[RobAnybody]

What you say is true, but I think what Disgustipated was saying is that prostitution benefits those who are not free to say "hey, how 'bout I call you a cab now that we're done", but rather those who are like "I'll go get a cab now that we're done."

 

[Formaldehyde]

Then there are women who ask for cab fare as you are leaving their apartment.

 

[Incodcito]

Prostitution has been legal in Canada for some time, but some of the actions associated with the industry were not. Working in a "common bawdy house" was illegal, as was "profiting from the avails of prostitution" (so no security guards or bodyguards).

However, due to a ruling passed down from the Supreme Court of Ontario, the above is now perfectly legal. This allows women to work out of their homes and to hire bodyguards for protection.

However, it should be noted that the feds have a year to draft new legislation in response to this ruling. Additionally, they can appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada if they want (but I don't think the odds are in their favour since their first appeal has been defeated).

So, is this the decline of Canadian morality? Are we better off as a society? Are you likely to visit a brothel if they become as common as Starbucks?

Stinky linky: http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario...ws-brothels-but-soliciting-ruled-illegal?bn=1

Good on Canada. Hopefully this isn't reversed.

 

[Narz]

Planning a trip soon?

 

[Cutlass]

Actually, prostitution benefits those of us that have no problem obtaining sex via conventional means - you are not paying so much for sex as you are paying for the woman to not overstay her welcome.

The John Melencamp defense?


Link to video.

 

[Incodcito]

Planning a trip soon?

Ehh, not worth it.

 

[civ_king]

The Red Light District actually causes sex trafficking (source) so legalizing prostitution doesn't actually stop the enslavement of women (and can even fuel it)

 

[Borachio]

Good grief. You've dug this one out.

I have only one thing to say about prostitution:

A gentleman (and I count myself one - at my best) never accepts payment for providing that kind of service.

There, I've said it.

 

[Arwon]

The Red Light District actually causes sex trafficking (source) so legalizing prostitution doesn't actually stop the enslavement of women (and can even fuel it)

I know that restrictive zoning laws can cause a lot of problems for sex workers, but I've never heard anyone make the argument that restrictive zoning laws encourage sex trafficking.

 

[Borachio]

Perhaps, the problem lies not with the women but the men.

 

[Arwon]

More generally, blaming a legalised sex work sector for sex trafficking is pretty problematic.

Firstly it equates sex slavery to prostitution, which ignores the very real problems of forced marriages and mail order brides. It also ignores other kinds of forced labour and movement, including the huge numbers of people who are trafficked to perform manual labour.

Secondly, forced servitude and slavery is illegal anyway, so at the very least the way to address the problem exists in either situation. And in places with criminalised sex work, since it's underground and frequently linked to organised crime, the problem can become a lot harder to address because of the marghinalised status of sex workers and the high propensity for corruption and selective enforcement of laws against sex work in those jurisdictions. Are there really less sex slaves in Eastern Europe, or is it just corruption and marginalisation making the problem less visible and identifiable? Since that video talks about Moldova, note that trafficking goes to lots of places with less liberal treatment of prostitution:

Women and children were trafficked for sexual exploitation to Turkey, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Ukraine, Russia, Cyprus, Greece, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Austria, France, Italy, and Portugal. Men and children were trafficked to Russia and neighboring countries for forced labor and begging. The trafficking of men for work in the construction, agriculture, and service sectors is an increasing problem. Of the approximately 900,000 citizens working abroad, slightly under one percent were believed to be victims of trafficking.

Thirdly, there's an argument that some numbers on victims of trafficking tend to conflate genuine cases of kidnapping and forced movement with sex workers moving to countries with liberalised policies via less than legal means. I don't know how this plays out in Europe, but it's certainly the case in Australia, and it tends to result in a bit of a moral panic where it's assumed all foreign sex workers are trafficked slaves.

Fourthly, Amsterdam isn't the only place with a legalised sex work industry in Europe. If sex trafficking is a particular problem there, as opposed to pretty much the entire the rest of Western Europe, then there's clearly some Netherlands-specific factors in play.

And fifthly, even if the link did exist, why would this be an argument for criminalising sex work in places where it's not criminalised, as opposed to an argument for putting more resources into fighting trafficking and slavery and decriminalising sex work everywhere it's not?

 

[civ_king]

I know that restrictive zoning laws can cause a lot of problems for sex workers, but I've never heard anyone make the argument that restrictive zoning laws encourage sex trafficking.

...
The elders of the Dutch capital, long known for its broad-mindedness, insist they have not been seized by a wave of prudishness. They say there is new evidence that criminal gangs, including East Europeans and Russians, have encroached on the area, making it meaner, more violent and more in the grip of the underworld of international sex traffickers.
...
“We’ve realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities,” said Job Cohen, the mayor. “We’re not banning prostitution, but we are cutting back on the whole circuit: the gambling halls, the pimps, the money laundering.” The mayor said the cleanup was possible because of tough new zoning codes. The national government has also given cities more leeway to revoke licenses.
...
“The guys from Eastern Europe bring in young and frightened women; they threaten them and beat them,” Mr. Fischer said. “In the old days, pimps mostly stuck to the rules, and police would warn people, like, ‘Hey Jan, you’re crossing the line.’ There was a kind of balance. But the local sex bosses are too old or dead or in prison, and the market has opened up.”

In some ways, city officials concede they are having to deal with problems created by the Netherlands’ own lenient policies. A parliamentary inquiry, criminologists and prostitutes’ support groups have warned in recent years that prostitution and the permissive marijuana trade were increasingly a magnet for international organized crime.

In a report about the sex trade, Karina Schaapman, a former prostitute and now a member of the City Council, described a police face book with some 80 “violent pimps” of whom only 3 were Dutch-born. She said more than 75 percent of Amsterdam’s 8,000 to 11,000 prostitutes, including 1,000 men, were from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia.
...
While Amsterdammers could ignore the red-light district if they wanted, its problems of human trafficking and violent turf wars have become the stuff of headlines.

Last year, after several turf battles broke into gunfights, the police arrested a gang of 12 men from Turkey who were running a prostitution ring of about 90 women from Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and Germany. In February, a trial in a Dutch court involved three Polish women who the police said had ordered the killing of their Polish pimp
...

NYTimes

 

[say1988]

I would bet that that has much more to do with Amsterdam and its reputation than the simple fact that prostitution is legal and regulated there.

Do you find similar issues in Berlin, Athens, Geneva, etc?

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Then there are women who ask for cab fare as you are leaving their apartment.

A small price to pay if that's the only grief you get

 

[Borachio]

Then there are women who ask for cab fare as you are leaving their apartment.

This would baffle me. You are the one getting the cab. They want you to pay them to get a cab to their own apartment, when they are already there? Or do they have more than one?

 

[kochman]

The Red Light District actually causes sex trafficking (source) so legalizing prostitution doesn't actually stop the enslavement of women (and can even fuel it)

So, what about all the sex trafficking in places without red light districts... like, most of the USA, for example?

Men with money and the desire for money cause red light districts, because there will always be people ready to supply "illegal" things to others for the right price...

 

[Disgustipated]

The Red Light District actually causes sex trafficking (source) so legalizing prostitution doesn't actually stop the enslavement of women (and can even fuel it)

Yes it does. Women aren't enslaved in my state. Although prostitution is regulated much more in my state than in Amsterdam.

Legalized prostitution actually decreases rape. If that's not enough reason to legalize it, I don't know what is.

According to John W. Dower, precisely as the Japanese government had hoped when it created the prostitution facilities, while the R.A.A. was in place "the incidence of rape remained relatively low given the huge size of the occupation force".[8]:130 However, there was a resulting large rise in venereal diseases, where for example in one army unit 70% tested positive for syphilis and 50% for gonorrhea, which led the US army to close down the prostitution.[8]:130

The incidence of rape increased after the closure of the brothels, possibly eight-fold; Dower states that "According to one calculation the number of rapes and assaults on japanese women amounted to around 40 daily while the R.A.A was in operation, and then rose to an average of 330 a day after it was terminated in early 1946."[8]:579

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Japan

 

[civ_king]

Yes it does. Women aren't enslaved in my state. Although prostitution is regulated much more in my state than in Amsterdam.

Legalized prostitution actually decreases rape. If that's not enough reason to legalize it, I don't know what is.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Japan

about that...


Conduct in an occupation is not comparable to peace time

 

[Formaldehyde]

She said more than 75 percent of Amsterdam’s 8,000 to 11,000 prostitutes, including 1,000 men, were from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia.

This is directly contrary to my own quite informal poll of various prostitutes in Amsterdam. I saw no men at all in the famous windows, and virtually all the women seemed to be Western Europeans. Nobody was being exploited. They all seemed to be quite willing to be making decent salaries, even though many of them weren't from Holland.

Do you have any data besides an ex-prostitute who claims this is what is occurring, and who is now a public official? She seems like she has a personal axe to grind here.

This would baffle me. You are the one getting the cab. They want you to pay them to get a cab to their own apartment, when they are already there? Or do they have more than one?

She was essentially asking for a "tip" after having sex. Most women would be quite offended if you left money on their dresser as you leave, but some aren't.