[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[arstal]

How about this- Blitzkrieg as a tech that gets some WWII units like Tanks/Motorized Infantry, to show the doctrine change that Modern Warfare involved. Maybe free GG for first to get?

In WWII, the German Army mostly won because of tactics and morale, not some technological advantage.

 

[Wolfshanze]

IMHO though, something needs to give in the current setup, but I've already discussed this at length.

While I'm more-or-less happy with the current progression of unit techs, the factory coming at the tail-end of the Industrial age has bothered me for some time but I never sat-down to think about it at length... really, factories should more-or-less start the Industrial Revolution, not cap-it-off.

Phungus, I think you and I agree on the need to make factories come earlier, but as I explained at length earlier, not at the cost of being able to reach WWI units without knowing what artillery is.

I think I have a solution, tech naming is a matter of semantics, but the need to move-up the factory earlier in the industrial age I believe is agreed-upon... oh, and speaking of semantics, I've never been fond of the term "Industrialism" as the main WWII tech being at the end of the Industrial revolution... hence my thought of moving that name up to the start as opposed to the end of the industrial revolution (semantics and all).

 

[Wodan]

One thing that has slightly bothered me is the fact that Artillery is now a bottleneck.

You know how with standard CIV, Scientific Method is a bottleneck. By that I mean you can only research so many techs before you have no choice but to get SciMeth. If, for example, you are doing an interesting monastery strategy, then you might want to delay SciMeth. So this becomes a critical factor.

The fact that SciMeth is key to so many other techs has a dramatic effect on the game. When and how you research it will change quite a few things.

In Wolfshanze, Artillery is now exactly like the SciMeth situation. I noticed this last month. Didn't comment at the time, but I've been exploring the possibilities in my past few games.

My conclusion, not a strident one but pretty firmed up at this point, is that this isn't a good thing. Both from a historical perspective as well as from a gameplay one. While it makes perfect sense from the military unit angle, it makes absolutely NO sense from most any other angle.

This latest line of discussion could resolve the situation. Some of the tech research dependencies could be moved to this new Factory tech (whatever it's called), while others would remain with Artillery.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[Wolfshanze]

The opposite was true before I changed Artillery being a pre-req to assembly line... artillery was almost an after-thought... you could go into WWI technology without even bothering to research artillery... well past it in-fact... artillery was almost never needed, but to get proper WWI and WWII techs, artillery really does need to be researched before you get to WWI techs...

Like I said though... I can free-up some important stuff well-before WWI and/or artillery by putting a new tech between replaceable parts and steam engine. I think it will help.

 

[tomppb]

so factories before steam engine?

 

[Wolfshanze]

so factories before steam engine?

Yeah... I sincerely hope you don't think all factories required a steam engine to make things. The Industrial Revolution was launched with as much of people moving from the countryside to city factories as much as it was anything else... the steam engine itself is a product of industrialization.

British colonies in the late 18th century built factories simply as buildings where a large number of workers gathered to perform hand labor, usually in textile production, such as power-loom factories... The first power loom, a mechanized loom powered by a drive shaft, was designed in 1784 by Edmund Cartwright and first built in 1785. It allowed textile making to be done far faster than if a human had done the same work. Though it eventually became one of the most important inventions in the industrial revolution, it was initially limited by its reliance on water power, which required workshops equipped with power looms to be located near a source of running water... only later was steam used.

Putting factories in between replaceable parts (watermills) and steam power makes perfect sense based on the trigger that power looms brought-on with the industrial revolution.

So... as you can see, factories were well established before steam power. I will make coal-plants come with steam power though.

 

[tomppb]

Yes of course factories came before steam engines but it was the steam engine that really made wide spread industrialization possible, because as you said yourself factories were otherwise dependent on water, or muscle (or I suppose wind power) But anyway not a big deal to me In other words I'm not arguing. I really do like that factories and coal plants are now separate from the late WWI units.

 

[Wolfshanze]

When I put coal-plants with steam engines, factories will get the 25% boost with steam power... as they should.

You're also underplaying some key aspects of the industrial revolution... it wasn't strictly tied to bigger factories or steam engines. The percentage of children who lived past infancy rose significantly in the late 18th century, leading to a larger workforce. The Agricultural Revolution in improved farming methods made food production more efficient and less labor-intensive, forcing the surplus population who could no longer find employment in agriculture into the cottage industry (for example weaving), and in the longer term into the cities and the newly developed factories.

All this was occurring in the late 18th and early 19th century (before the steam engine), but was indeed followed closely by steam power which in-turn amped-up the speed and efficiency of the industrial revolution.

 

[Healz]

So you can have a factory building that can only be built in a city near a river like the Hoover Dam is? Then also another one when you hit steam power that you can build anywhere? The water powered one should have a big wheel. Maybe base it it on the mill graphic in the game... Then the steam powered one should have a smoke stack for steam to come out. Just a thought... Also there should be an event that is randomly triggered about clean air act... Must spend so many dollars per factory to meet emissions regulations...

 

[Ambidexter]

British colonies in the late 18th century built factories simply as buildings where a large number of workers gathered to perform hand labor, usually in textile production, such as power-loom factories... The first power loom, a mechanized loom powered by a drive shaft, was designed in 1784 by Edmund Cartwright and first built in 1785. It allowed textile making to be done far faster than if a human had done the same work. Though it eventually became one of the most important inventions in the industrial revolution, it was initially limited by its reliance on water power, which required workshops equipped with power looms to be located near a source of running water... only later was steam used.

So... as you can see, factories were well established before steam power. I will make coal-plants come with steam power though.

Just as a historical note, one of the first instances of mass production was Marc Isambard Brunel's invention of block making machines. Blocks were the pulleys used on sailing ships and a sailing ship-of-the-line would have hundreds of them. Brunel's system used forty-three machines run by ten unskilled workers to turn elm logs into finished blocks of higher quality and consistency, and in much greater numbers, than the handmade blocks previously made by 110 skilled workmen. Brunel's block factory started operating in 1803. Mass production actually started before steam engines.

 

[tomppb]

So any idea when we will see all this 2.86 goodness! Oh and since the economic aspect of assembly line was moved to a different part of the tech tree are we going to see the end of artillery as an "economic" bottle neck? I know for military units artillery will rightly remain a bottleneck tech.

 

[Wolfshanze]

So any idea when we will see all this 2.86 goodness! Oh and since the economic aspect of assembly line was moved to a different part of the tech tree are we going to see the end of artillery as an "economic" bottle neck? I know for military units artillery will rightly remain a bottleneck tech.

Nothing about Artillery is going to change... it will still be a pre-req for the WWI tech of Assembly Line. You're just now going to be able to build factories and coal plants without having to research Artillery... why is everyone so afraid of researching artillery anyways? All techs are a "bottleneck" if you refuse to research them until every other tech is researched... except maybe Divine Right!

As for v2.86 coming-out... it's not exactly imminent. I still want to finish my current "test-game" where I'm testing some new MG AI routines. My current test game will determine if I change the MG AI or leave-it as it currently is.

 

[tomppb]

I wasn't complaining just wondering if builder civs would be able to go onto things like radio and refrigeration without getting the WWI units. Just wondering what the shape of tech tree will be. I like artillery and get it as soon as possible!

 

[Wolfshanze]

I wasn't complaining just wondering if builder civs would be able to go onto things like radio and refrigeration without getting the WWI units. Just wondering what the shape of tech tree will be. I like artillery and get it as soon as possible!

Quite frankly, the tech tree was screwed to begin with before I changed a few things... people complain of not being able to do this or that without first researching artillery or assembly line, but the problem before hand was that people were going WAAAAAAAAAY too far down the tech tree without even researching very basic things... like having Radios and Splitting the Atom without even knowing about artillery or what a factory was... I'm NEVER going back to that mess. People got used to a little too much freedom on the tech tree... I put a stop to that. It was a very deliberate and intentional change that I have no intention of reversing.

 

[Kip Beagle]

Quite frankly, the tech tree was screwed to begin with before I changed a few things... people complain of not being able to do this or that without first researching artillery or assembly line, but the problem before hand was that people were going WAAAAAAAAAY too far down the tech tree without even researching very basic things... like having Radios and Splitting the Atom without even knowing about artillery or what a factory was... I'm NEVER going back to that mess. People got used to a little too much freedom on the tech tree... I put a stop to that. It was a very deliberate and intentional change that I have no intention of reversing.

Good call... I agree. A little freedom on research is good, but there are some things that should obviously not come before others. I, for one, thank you for altering it.

 

[Stewie0416]

I seem to have a problem downloading it. I use vista and i haven't read through everything but where should i extract it?

 

[Wolfshanze]

I seem to have a problem downloading it. I use vista and i haven't read through everything but where should i extract it?

Read the "Installation Instructions" on the first post of this thread (scroll-down a bit)... it's all listed there.

 

[scu98rkr]

hmm one of the things I liked about this patch, (and wolfrevolution) is it wasnt too different from the normal game. Moving Factories earlier sounds like a massive change to me.

 

[Wolfshanze]

hmm one of the things I liked about this patch, (and wolfrevolution) is it wasnt too different from the normal game. Moving Factories earlier sounds like a massive change to me.

"Massive"?

You get a building a little earlier... it's no different then other changes I have done to make the game a little more historical, since Factories weren't invented in WWI, I thought it might be nice to have the industrial age START with factories as oppose to end with them... I wouldn't call that a "massive" change... and in any case, if you don't like it, then don't use the mod... I won't miss the extra revenue I've been receiving from you playing the mod.

 

[tomppb]

I think the move of factory is a good one from gameplay and "realism" perspective. Factories certainly were earlier than WWI and also Assembly line has too much stuff from a gameplay perspective IMHO. Its nice to separate the military stuff from economic goodies and not make one tech so all poweful. anyway I like it.