[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Wolfshanze]

Militarily speaking, the age of the battleship as queen of the seas was ended by the development of airforce. i.e. between Worldwars I and II.

I think what I'm proposing would increase the value of carriers and decrease the value of battleships... and that's NOT an all-together bad or unrealistic thing... unless you're a battleship admiral!

In any case, battleships, carriers and air forces would all still have a valid place in the order of battle... non would be obsoleted... they would all just need each other a little more.

 

[Ninja2]

I think it will require a great rebalancing effort, if even some planes become lethal. Currently, just as an example, destroyers have a 30% intercept chance. Conversely, a plane has a 70% chance to inflict damage. So the destoyer has a 30% chance to kill (not damage) a plane, and the plane has 70% chance to damage (but not destroy) a ship. Obviously, if planes were made lethal as well, these percentages are totally unbalanced. So it's mandatory to rebalance the intercept chance, as well as the chance to damage and the chance to destroy.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but what are we after here? Complexity or fun?

And think about the strategic consequences as well. Why would I want to build or upgrade the later surface ships, once carriers become available? I know this is what happened in history, but naval units and navies are still somewhat of a sideshow in CIV, and I fear this will make them even more redundant. The size of oceans in CIV are still so small, that most landbased aircraft cover too much of the oceans anyway. As the game is now, I'm forced to build naval units to project lethal force on sea tiles. It simply becomes too easy to defend your shores, if you can completely rely on air. Those air units will become a massive weapon, since they can both defend from seaborne invasions, and be used as offensive weapons for conquest.

Again, I *know* this is how the real world works, but this is a game, and balance is needed...

 

[arstal]

When planes attack a ship, they aren't going to kill it unless it's been heavily damaged, so a couple destroyers should keep 4 planes from sinking your battleships.

Also, air superiority in war even as far back as WWII, meant a TON. A lot more then it did in Civ. I do think planes should be more expensive and rebalanced

The WWI planes shouldn't be able to do a lot of damage. I never heard of air power deciding anything in WWI.

WWII planes are balanced about right I think.

3rd-gen planes are about right as well. I don't know too well how lethal 60-70s aircraft could be.

4th gen planes (stealth bomber/fighter) should be very deadly. Possibly underpowered- look at Desert Storm/Kosovo/9-11 wars.

 

[Wodan]

In the Post-WWII / pre-supercarrier era, battleships should be valuable for fire support, mostly against land targets.

Also, I think it should be assumed that ANY ship will be modernized as much as possible as game time progresses. e.g., battleships should be able to carry tomahawk missles.

Wodan

 

[Wolfshanze]

I wonder if there's anyway to get naval units (in-particular battleships) to do more then just city/cultural bombardment. It'd be nice to get battleships to be able to cause collateral damage in city bombardment like catapults, cannons and bombers.

Something like that would probably require some sort of DLL/code change though.

On airpower and lethality, folks seem all over the map with this one. If i'm not mistaken, there's only two simple lines of XML code in one file to change to turn this on or off (one per unit, and I'm only thinking of changing two units). Maybe I'll just make the change and offer simple instructions to change it back if you don't like it... kinda like my instructions for changing German flags.

Or do people even want lethality in aircraft at all? Seems fairly controversial.

 

[Wodan]

Honestly my two cents is I don't care. There are pros and cons either way.

I do think that this is getting into subjective areas and that, if there are dubious benefits, probably better to leave as is.

Wodan

 

[arstal]

I wonder if there's anyway to get naval units (in-particular battleships) to do more then just city/cultural bombardment. It'd be nice to get battleships to be able to cause collateral damage in city bombardment like catapults, cannons and bombers.

Or do people even want lethality in aircraft at all? Seems fairly controversial.

I'd say yes to lethality, since it has happened historically, but not for WWI craft.

One thing I'd like to see is battleships and bombers have a carpet bomb/precision bomb (with Laser) mission. Carpet bomb would do less damage, but to more units, and have a chance of destroying a random building or lowering pop of the town by 1.

Precision bomb would destroy a set building with a chance, on failure have a slim chance to destroy another building by mistake, or set up a "milk factory" event. (Would reduce enemy war weariness by 10%, -1 from all leaders)

Cruise missiles should have the precision bombing ability as well.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Honestly my two cents is I don't care. There are pros and cons either way.

I'm probably going to test my proposed changes today and see what I think of them... if I like the results, I'll offer very simple instructions on how to change it back if folks don't like it... like the German flag thing. If I test it and don't like how it plays-out and/or thinks it changes the game too much, I just won't bother.

Or maybe I'll leave it as it is and tell you how to change it to lethal...

I'd say yes to lethality, since it has happened historically, but not for WWI craft.

The WWI planes shouldn't be able to do a lot of damage. I never heard of air power deciding anything in WWI.

For the record my proposed changes are only to TWO units... WWII Light Bombers (Stukas, Vals, Avengers... ie: tactical bombers) and modern-day Strike Jets (Jet Fighters in-game... think modern jets with precise guided amunition). I have no intentions of giving lethality to any other aircraft.

On WWI aircraft, they'd be left totally as-is... and in the Wolfshanze Mod realm, WWI aircraft are high on nuisance-factor and low on war-changing... they're like mosquitos... annoying pests you mostly want to swat at. It'll stay that way.

 

[Wolfshanze]

UPDATE:
Okay... I've run some tests and I'm not sure what all the complaining about is concerning giving lethality to certain aircraft and how it's going to unbalance the game.

Here's the setup...

I ran two identical tests... one without and one with lethal light bombers.

In each test, I loaded up three German WWII Carriers with three squadrons of Stukas (light bombers) each (full capacity)... mind-you... in a "real world" scenario, it's likely the number may be less on availability of aircraft and/or use of fighters on carriers...

I then lined-up several British battleships and went to war.

Note, this is what I call "The Billy Mitchell Test". These were essentially perfect conditions... there were no enemy fighters in the way... no enemy destroyers or cruisers as escorts (the Wolfshanze Mod allows Heavy Cruisers to intercept aircraft too, don't forget), I was able to attack unharrassed, with zero experienced units on either side (the ship is probably more likely to have gained experience then the aircraft).

Having said that, in the Wolfshanze Mod a BB has a strength of 42. I sent in wave after wave of Stukas... each Stuka hit for (on average) 8-points of damage when unmolested....

In test #1 (without lethal damage... as currently-is), one full carrier-load of three bombers was allowed to attack... it maxed-out at 21-points of damage inflicted (half) and the attacks were then cut-off (no more allowed). One full carrier attack was allowed, causing 50% damage to the BB, at which time the British radio'd-in that air attacks were unfair and no-longer allowed... drat... gotta finish the job with surface power...

In test #2 (with lethal damage... as proposed change), not every attack was for the full 8-points of damage... attacks continued... one full carrier... two full carriers, and finally a seventh squadron of stukas attacked from a third carrier... the first British battleship went under the waves.

Okay folks... that took two and a half carriers to sink one battleship... unmolested, without any enemy aircraft, destroyers or cruisers intercepting any incoming aircraft (plus no experience on the battleship, no damage control, no chance to get away).

I hereby declare, that if anyone thinks it's unfair for two and a half carriers full of bombers can't sink one battleship in perfect conditions, and that it is unfair to gameplay, I think you might want to reconsider your understanding of naval warfare.

I'm going to greenlight this change... I can't for the life of me figure why this would be considered unfair or game-altering by anyone... other then in a positive light.

 

[Ninja2]

That sounds great, Wolf! I was worried that it would be a fight to the death with each encounter, but what you've just described sounds very reasonable! Where/what did you edit?

 

[Wolfshanze]

That sounds great, Wolf! I was worried that it would be a fight to the death with each encounter, but what you've just described sounds very reasonable! Where/what did you edit?

Change the "iAirCombatLimit" limit from "50" to "100" in any unit's Civ4UnitInfos.xml file. It's a case-by-case change... that's how you determine any particular aircraft's cut-off value in a ground/naval strike.

In the Wolfshanze Mod, I'm only going to do it in two cases... light bombers and jet fighters.

 

[Xenomorph]

Militarily speaking, the age of the battleship as queen of the seas was ended by the development of airforce. i.e. between Worldwars I and II.

True, but most military strategists didn't actually realize it until they had lost some of their battleships to nothing but aircraft.

 

[Wolfshanze]

True, but most military strategists didn't actually realize it until they had lost some of their battleships to nothing but aircraft.

Well, that will be possible now in the Wolfshanze Mod... but you're going to need to bring a lot of airpower... it won't come with a single squadron... but it's now going to be possible to sink ships from the air at sea!

 

[mamba]

Will this be limited to ships or can aircraft then destroy all units ?

 

[Wolfshanze]

Will this be limited to ships or can aircraft then destroy all units ?

It's limited to certain aircraft... only Light Bombers and Jet Fighters (Strike Fighters) will be allowed lethality... that lethality includes naval and ground targets for these two units... however, one must realize that these tactical aircraft only target one unit at a time, they don't cause (or kill) on collateral damage... regular heavy bombers will remain as-is. Once again, with land combat... one-shot, one-kill is a very unlikely thing (unless the ground unit was already hurting).

I'm currently uploading v2.64... I'm done with the latest batch of changes... I have multiple new unit models (Austrian units and Mikasa), the thouroughly discussed lethality kills for aircraft & submarine transport flanking attacks, and a rather extensive resizing of all the naval units... all at once, from the smallest workboat to the biggest Supercarrier. This version will also be compatible with any v2.6x saved games! (yeah). No Poland yet... some other time.

 

[Agent327]

True, but most military strategists didn't actually realize it until they had lost some of their battleships to nothing but aircraft.

So, what's new? Armor tactics, however, did precede reality in the case of German WW II armored divisions, an innovation of Guderian proposed to and approved by the General Staff of the Wehrmacht. (Allied tactics, originally based on the theory that armor was an infantry supporting element, followed suit out of sheer necessity.)

 

[Wolfshanze]

Available for download now... Wolfshanze Mod v2.64...

Okay... I have released v2.64 of the Wolfshanze Mod... this introduces several important things... though the change-list is small, most took a lot of work or involve a very important change.

Should be compatible with v2.6x saved games (in theory).


************
New in v2.64
************
Light Bombers and modern Jet Strike Fighters can now attack with "lethality" on ground/naval targets.
Some minor adjustments to naval ship air-intercept odds.
Submarines and Attack Submarines now have "flanking attack" on transports.
Extensive rescaling of all naval unit models for all nations and eras.

New models/skins for:
Japanese Mikasa Pre-Dreadnought
Austrian Musketman
Austrian Grenadier
Meso American Cuirassier

 

[mamba]

It's limited to certain aircraft... only Light Bombers and Jet Fighters (Strike Fighters) will be allowed lethality... that lethality includes naval and ground targets for these two units... however, one must realize that these tactical aircraft only target one unit at a time, they don't cause (or kill) on collateral damage... regular heavy bombers will remain as-is. Once again, with land combat... one-shot, one-kill is a very unlikely thing (unless the ground unit was already hurting).

Sounds good to me, I am not opposed to having planes kill units, just never did anything about it yet

 

[Wodan]

Wolfshanze, one question. This applies on land as well, correct?

So, on land, it's no longer safe to send single units to reinforce the front. Intercept fighters can protect, but if you don't have fighters or don't have enough, then your single units are dogmeat.

In addition, they're also vulnerable when you're in the enemy's territory, where you may not have air patrol coverage. CVs become more useful.

I'm trying to think of the most valuable land unit that would really piss me off if an opponent air struck it out of existence. I think probably Warlord units would be the worst.

Wodan

 

[Agent327]

Wolfshanze, one question. This applies on land as well, correct?

So, on land, it's no longer safe to send single units to reinforce the front. Intercept fighters can protect, but if you don't have fighters or don't have enough, then your single units are dogmeat.

In addition, they're also vulnerable when you're in the enemy's territory, where you may not have air patrol coverage. CVs become more useful.

I'm trying to think of the most valuable land unit that would really piss me off if an opponent air struck it out of existence. I think probably Warlord units would be the worst.

Wodan

I'd think losing armor to air attacks would be most costly (and historically most correct - until the development of anti-tank missiles).

EDIT: Wolfshanze, your update is not yet listed in the "Latest Files" or Civ4 "Modpacks" sections.