[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Wolfshanze]

Well not complaining, but what this does is say that general-purpose cruisers are good at intercepting as a specialty-AA cruiser. It also says that specialty-AA cruisers are as good at ship-to-ship battle as a general-purpose cruiser.

As-is now:
Destroyer Str-30 Int 30%
Heavy Cruiser Str-34, Int 35%

If I split-hairs like Wodan wants:
Destroyer Str-30 Int 25%
Light/AA Cruiser Str-32, Int 35%
Heavy Cruiser Str-34, Int 30%? Mabye 35% anyways

Special-built AA cruisers were always light cruisers... the unit I have in the game is a heavy cruiser... the AA ability of either is roughly similar, it's just the AA cruiser was cheaper to build then a heavy cruiser.

Just how much do you want me to split hairs here guys? I could go hard-core like Pacific General and make seperate cruisers for every type of ship class if you want too (like 4 or 5 differant American Heavy Cruiser classes... none had identical abilities, so let's split hairs with them too).

There comes a point where one has to recognize the limitations of an abstract game like Civ4 and live with what makes it fun and what it can and can't do... I really don't see a need to split hairs between light and heavy cruisers in Civ4... heck, there's been people that say I added way too many ships as-is (they're happy with Frigates upgrading to Destroyers I guess).

 

[Agent327]

33-Civ German earth scenario map stable on this end. Maybe it's a language thing... have you tried it in English just to see if it's a language problem (assuming you may have tried it in a non-english language?).

Tried Egypt on the 33-civ map and played til after 1000 BC: no problem. When I tried Germany on the 34-civ map the same thing as before happened. (I use the standard version; haven't tried DL the mod again yet.)

 

[Wodan]

As-is now:
Destroyer Str-30 Int 30%
Heavy Cruiser Str-34, Int 35%

If I split-hairs like Wodan wants:
Destroyer Str-30 Int 25%
Light/AA Cruiser Str-32, Int 35%
Heavy Cruiser Str-34, Int 30%? Mabye 35% anyways

First off, as I mentioned, I don't feel all that strongly about this.

Secondly, something like this is what I would suggest:
Destroyer Str-30 Int 25%
Light/AA Cruiser Str-24, Int 60%
Heavy Cruiser Str-34, Int 35%

The Light/AA Cruiser is analogous to Trebs vs Cats. It's actually weaker than the previous unit, but when used as its special purpose it's much stronger.

Wodan

 

[Wolfshanze]

Except in reality, an AA cruiser (basing off actual ones, like the HMS Dido or USS Atlanta) are more powerful then modern-day destroyers in ship-to-ship combat, and certainly more dangerous then 1890s Pre-Dreadnoughts or WWI Destroyers which you have them rated lower than.

You see, it's NOT actually weaker then the previous unit... it's just weaker then other light cruisers, but not weaker then destroyers.

 

[arstal]

Couldn't anti-air cruiser be simulated by a promotion

Oh, one thing- the Anti-Tank infantry might have to be upped. Doesn't a heavy Tank beat an Anti-Tank right now? You never see the Anti-Tanks built much though.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Doesn't a heavy Tank beat an Anti-Tank right now? You never see the Anti-Tanks built much though.

I would sure hope so... haven't seen many infantry beat heavy tanks... maybe building a Self-Propelled ATG would be a better idea.

 

[Wodan]

I see two problems.

One is that WWII era destroyers, having typically 5x5" guns and 20x1" guns, are given power 30 and int 25%, while heavy cruisers, having typically 10 x5" guns and 8x1" guns, are given power 34.

Ship-to-ship power, there should be a LOT more difference between 30 to 34. Increase in 5" guns is 100%, while increase in power is 13%.

5" guns could be used in AA mode. However, 1" guns would be almost as effective. If the shell goes through the fuselage, it likely as not would not hit anything critical. If it hits the engine, flaps, cables, or pilot, then it would cause significant damage. So, sheer # of mounts for a destroyer is 25, while an Atlanta is 18. This would indicate that a destroyer should be more effective in AA role.

Interception in CIV does two things: it stops the mission, and it causes damage to the air unit. The former is dependent upon interception %, while the latter is (I presume) ratio of the ship : air strengths.

Wolfshanze, any thoughts? Historically, is a destroyer more effective in AA role than a heavy cruiser in AA role?

If so, I would think that it should be more like this:
Destroyer Str-30 Int 60%
Heavy Cruiser Str-34, Int 35%

Wodan

 

[Wolfshanze]

Destroyers aren't more effective in AA roles then cruisers... AA cruisers or standard heavy cruisers. No way on God's green earth would I give a WWII destroyer a 60% intercept rate... that is totally unrealistic in every way, shape and form, and they wouldn't be more effective then any cruiser in any manner (assuming we're comparing US Destroyers to US Cruisers... it's hard once you start trying to compare every cruiser from every nation with one type of destroyer from one nation, so I'm just using US ships as a standard).

Mind-you, I gave heavy cruisers and battleships ship-to-ship bonuses against destroyers for the purpose of ship comparisons, but there's still no way you can slice/dice or spin a justification that a destroyer with a handful of 5" guns is going to put-up more AA flak then a heavy cruiser (which most US cruisers sported significant AA guns, even the "non" AA cruisers). As the war progressed, the Americans (and most other nations) kept adding more and more AA guns to pretty much every cruiser available, as the role of the cruiser switched from scout/hunter to AA escort (whether or not it carried the "AA Cruiser" tag, they all ended up in the same role).

I stand firm and fast on the fact a cruiser (in general) is ALWAYS going to put up more AA FLAK then a destroyer will.... and even in the BEST CASE scenario, there is no way, shape or form a destroyer from WWII would have a 60% interception rate... that's just plain NUTS!

There's a reason why the Americans kept building carrier, after carrier, after carrier... the best way to intercept enemy aircraft is not with ships, but rather with planes. If you want to intercept, your best bet is with planes, not ships.

Here's some facts... the US "Baltimore" class Heavy Cruisers, were sporting (by war's end) the following armament:
9 x 8-inch, 12 x 5-inch, 48 x 40-mm and 22 x 20-mm guns.

That was the standard American Heavy Cruiser by war's end.

By comparison, the ubiquitous American Fletcher class destroyer (the most numerous) sported the following armament:
• 5 × 5 in (127 mm) guns,
• 6–10 × 40 mm AA guns (early ships carried 4 × 1.1 in guns),
• 7–10 × 20 mm AA guns.

I'll take the forty-eight 40mm and twenty-two 20mm guns over ten 40 and ten 20mm guns anyday of the week... you still think a destroyer should be given a higher AA factor then cruisers? I'm not going to do that in the Wolfshanze mod ever, but you're glad to change it on your end if you want to suit yourself... it's a simple one-line change in the UnitInfos.xml (I believe "Interception" is plainly spelled-out).

 

[Wodan]

Well I was going of armament numbers in Wiki. Perhaps I was looking at 1940 ship classes while you're talking about 1946... which are two different animals of course.

Anyway there doesn't seem a lot of room to maneuver in any event so we're barking up the wrong tree I suppose. (Cue Wolfshanze to say "I've been saying this all along".)

BTW I think the reason the US built a lot of carriers is because they project power against both land and sea targets. Cruisers, even BBs, after all, are primarily useful only in denying the sea to the enemy (fire support being the exception).

Wodan

 

[Kilroywashere]

Why not just make the interception promotion availible to Cruisers and Destroyers? I've always thought that how you promote your ships determines the class of ship. Like a Battleship promoted to combat 6 (with a great general) is sort of like a Yamato or Bismark class battleship, separate enough from other battleships but not a unit unto itself.

 

[Wodan]

That's not a half bad idea, Kilroy.

Wodan

 

[Wolfshanze]

Well an "interception" promotion might be nice... something like what the aircraft have. I think promotions are by category though, not unit... like I'd have to offer the promotion to all modern age naval units for example, but not "just" destroyers and cruisers.

That's something I can look into... like adding AA guns over the course of the war actually did happen...

Oh, and Wodan... I used Wiki numbers too, and during the war, not 1946... ask Giaus what I think about using stats from after the war ended! All the numbers I provided were from Wiki on existing American ship classes during the war... Fletcher and Baltimore classes respectively.

As for American carrier use, not all carriers were built to project power... many were built almost exclusively for escort and convoy protection purposes... a ton of freighters were converted specifically for protection purposes (jeep carriers).

 

[Conqueror Worm]

I admit that I havent read this all that carefully, but just had a thought. Perhaps if we consider the destroyer not to represent a single ship, but to represent a squadron, as I believe they were most intended to be employed, than we might perceive their relative strengths and weaknesses differently. They would still would be relatively cheap, have little firepower or chance when up against the bigs, but might provide superior AA and anti-sub protection to the larger and more powerful single units.

p.s. Didn't Britoria rule the waves. Wouldn't it be nice to see the limey redcoats replaced with a superior frigate, or perhaps even better, have their unique building be a drydock that was able to produce a superior navey!

Also, wouldn't it be interesting if the Yamato could cost a fair bit more but also be more powerful, the Hood be a bit less armoured but faster, the Bismark be somewhere in between, etc...

Also, Wolfshanze, thanks for all the great work. Your mod is next up on my list of must plays!

 

[Ninja2]

I admit that I havent read this all that carefully, but just had a thought. Perhaps if we consider the destroyer not to represent a single ship, but to represent a squadron, as I believe they were most intended to be employed, than we might perceive their relative strengths and weaknesses differently. They would still would be relatively cheap, have little firepower or chance when up against the bigs, but might provide superior AA and anti-sub protection to the larger and more powerful single units.

p.s. Didn't Britoria rule the waves. Wouldn't it be nice to see the limey redcoats replaced with a superior frigate, or perhaps even better, have their unique building be a drydock that was able to produce a superior navey!

Also, wouldn't it be interesting if the Yamato could cost a fair bit more but also be more powerful, the Hood be a bit less armoured but faster, the Bismark be somewhere in between, etc...

You might extend the question to all Civ units: What scale are the (military) units in this game?

 

[phungus420]

Well an "interception" promotion might be nice... something like what the aircraft have. I think promotions are by category though, not unit... like I'd have to offer the promotion to all modern age naval units for example, but not "just" destroyers and cruisers.

There are two easy ways to do this. First is make a specific unitcombat type for the ships you want to be able to get the intercept promotion. I don't think you want to do this though, as you have a bonuses in combat related to era for the unitcombat in your mod I believe.

The Other way (which I'd recomend you try to see if you like it in your mod) would be to give all naval intercepting units the intercept1 promotion for free (and reduce their base intercept % so that with intercept1 promotion they have the same intercept % you like). Then make intercept2 available to naval units. This will mean that only units you have designated to have the free inercept1 promotion will be able to upgrade to intercept2, others cannot. You could even add in an intercept3 promotion if you are so inclined, and make it only available to the naval units if you want them to be able to double promote for intercept abilities. This is actually a pretty easy way to allow customizable promotions for specific units, and feels natural if you set it up right. This is how units like the Samari can promote up the drill latter, all melee units have access to Drill2-4 but since only those who get Drill1 can access Drill2 only they can promote up that line.

 

[Wodan]

Speaking of the "destroyer is a squadron" concept, Wolfshanze, you might consider incorporating the Better Ship Scale mod into yours. It's really nice, actually. Take a look at his screenshots. When you play with it, it's amazing how it improves the realism. It bugs me every now and then when I'm playing the Wolfshanze mod and say to myself, "what the heck is that galleon doing bigger than my destroyer?!?"

Wodan

 

[arstal]

The way I look at it. The size of units increases over time, a unit corresponds to what would be a division today, a regiment during the ren/industrial era, and maybe a legion/batallion/squadron during the ancient/medieval times.

Then again I play normal speed, so I tend to get a smaller military size.

 

[arstal]

Something I was thinking- should Germany be Prussia instead?

Reasoning: Prussia as an independent country lasted from I think 1701 (earlier if you count Brandenburg) until 1870, and then ran Germany pretty much until 1945.

Downside:Leaders might have to change, you'd probably have to dump Hitler.

 

[Wolfshanze]

The Other way (which I'd recomend you try to see if you like it in your mod) would be to give all naval intercepting units the intercept1 promotion for free (and reduce their base intercept % so that with intercept1 promotion they have the same intercept % you like). Then make intercept2 available to naval units. This will mean that only units you have designated to have the free inercept1 promotion will be able to upgrade to intercept2, others cannot.

That's a good idea... might look into that myself.

Speaking of the "destroyer is a squadron" concept, Wolfshanze, you might consider incorporating the Better Ship Scale mod into yours. It's really nice, actually. Take a look at his screenshots. When you play with it, it's amazing how it improves the realism. It bugs me every now and then when I'm playing the Wolfshanze mod and say to myself, "what the heck is that galleon doing bigger than my destroyer?!?"

Wodan... you're a day late and a dollar short... I figure one or both of the following has occured:

A) You're obviously not playing the latest version of the Wolfshanze Mod
B) You didn't even read what changed in the latest version of the Wolfshanze Mod

Allow me to re-emphasize what I did in the last version:

************
New in v2.64
************
Light Bombers and modern Jet Strike Fighters can now attack with "lethality" on ground/naval targets.
Some minor adjustments to naval ship air-intercept odds.
Submarines and Attack Submarines now have "flanking attack" on transports.
Extensive rescaling of all naval unit models for all nations and eras.

New models/skins for:
Japanese Mikasa Pre-Dreadnought
Austrian Musketman
Austrian Grenadier
Meso American Cuirassier

Wodan... I've totally revamped all the naval unit scales in the game... you won't see galleons larger then pre-dreadnoughts anymore. That's all fixed now.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Well, the Austrians are getting fleshed-out nicely now with unique units... in v2.64, I had introduced new Musketmen and Grenadiers...

seZereth has just released some excellent models... Austrian Infantry and Machine Gunners! The Austrians are getting some great-looking unique units!

The next update (no plans, as-of-yet) I hope to include these units for Austria.