[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[devilgunner]

1) is it even remotely needed, or is it superfluous/detracting from the game?
2) hopefully, a dirt-cheap, nearly useless air unit would not be mass-produced/spammed by the AI computer, and you'd be harrassed by countless city-based seaplanes. How good is the AI at not producing nearly worthless units?

#1, i'm thinking no. the game promotes combined arms tactics so i will normally use fighters on carriers for recon on oceans and over other continents.

#2, i will answer this be giving an example from one of my previous games. i can't remember in which version of the mod this change was made, but when explorers were beefed up a bit, in my next game, peter the great began using these to defend cities AND as part of his invasion forces. this has since changed, but the point is, it does happen.

 

[Xenomorph]

If I were to give Germany another UU with special abilities, it would probably be the U-Boat

The only problem I have with that is that it gives the Germans two UU's within the same era. I would much prefer to see two UU's from different eras.

Though that reminds me - for some reason I cannot remember off the top of my head whether you can station planes in forts

Yes they can, much to the Egyptian's charine.

 

[Ninja2]

On the issue of seaplanes: I think it's a beautiful model, and it would be great to include in a scenario. But I think it's below the scope for a standard CIV game.

I've said before that I usually abstract smaller technological advances into promotions. By the same token, this is one of the things which can also be abstracted by promotions. Why can this battleship see farther than other ships? Because it has a better radar, or better communications, or better intel, or spotter planes/helicopters, satellite imaging, even better training, whatever... there's something from history to abstract at any given point in time. Whatever the abstraction, the battleship certainly cannot see farther because some admiral promoted the crew.

If you want to make more promotions, then I'll be all support, though!

 

[Wodan]

On the issue of seaplanes: I think it's a beautiful model, and it would be great to include in a scenario. But I think it's below the scope for a standard CIV game.

Unless perhaps there's different gameplay. Such as being able to be based off lakes.

I've said before that I usually abstract smaller technological advances into promotions. By the same token, this is one of the things which can also be abstracted by promotions. Why can this battleship see farther than other ships? Because it has a better radar, or better communications, or better intel, or spotter planes/helicopters, satellite imaging, even better training, whatever... there's something from history to abstract at any given point in time. Whatever the abstraction, the battleship certainly cannot see farther because some admiral promoted the crew.

If you want to make more promotions, then I'll be all support, though!

Are you suggesting that the normal "early fighter" be able to be promoted to the seaplane version? Not a bad idea. What would the promotion do, though? Besides the being able to be based on lakes idea, nothing really comes to mind.

Wodan

 

[Ninja2]

I am saying that the Sentry promotion (for me) represents something tangible, like a seaplane for instance, or a better radar. It's not just a ribbon that makes the crew see better.

 

[c0d5579]

The only problem I have with that is that it gives the Germans two UU's within the same era. I would much prefer to see two UU's from different eras.

Agreed in principle, and in Germany's case, not too hard - reinsert the Landsknecht, for instance, or the Teutonic Knight (though not strictly German, or even settled in Germany as defined in 1900...), or the Frederickian Musketeer/Cannon (not a single unit, pick one of the two). Problem comes in with civs that only really appear in a given era (Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian, et cetera). Just not enough info to make them work well.

Argh - since contributing here, I've started really seeing the limits of Civ4, and now it's going to drive me a little crazy.

EDIT - And thanks for the note about planes; it was going to drive me nuts 'til I hit the modern era again, I'm sure.

 

[arstal]

Some civs who were really strong in a certain era should have two UU's from that era.

Ideas for double UU's

Spain- Conquistador (maybe give it a free sentry promotion as well), and Tercio
England- add Threedecker
USA- Minuteman
Austria- Uhlan Cavalry

Would be tough to give some civs two UU's though.

 

[Wodan]

Tercio is a tactic, not a unit.

Just me.

Wodan

 

[Soduka]

Does anyone know how to make modular civilizations work well with Wolfshanze? Something about this mod gets all pissy with modular art assets and while loading up the game gives errors.

 

[Wolfshanze]

See my note on range versus "Sentry." If history justifies them as having a longer range than two squares on a huge Earth map, then they make sense.

Well, for starters, I NEVER base my stats on a huge Earth map... nor will I ever... because the game itself is not scaled to the huge Earth map.... to be honest, it's not scaled to anything (but perhaps it's own units). If units were scaled to a map, their ranges, movement and everything else would change between scenarios, tiny maps, huge maps, etc, etc.

Simply put, the best way to scale a unit is to compare it with other pre-existing units in the game.

A WWII Bomber (Rng-8) has a longer range then a WWII Fighter (Rng-6)... typically speaking, WWII single-engined light bombers had a range longer then fighters, but shorter then heavy bombers (WolfMod; Rng-7). None of these are scaled off of any particular map, but rather to each other (and from default Civ4 ranges). Actual ranges of seaplanes varied of course, but during WWII most typically had ranges similar to WWII Light Bombers... ergo, that would be their range in-game (7).

On the issue of seaplanes: I think it's a beautiful model, and it would be great to include in a scenario. But I think it's below the scope for a standard CIV game.

I've said before that I usually abstract smaller technological advances into promotions. By the same token, this is one of the things which can also be abstracted by promotions. Why can this battleship see farther than other ships? Because it has a better radar, or better communications, or better intel, or spotter planes/helicopters, satellite imaging, even better training, whatever... there's something from history to abstract at any given point in time. Whatever the abstraction, the battleship certainly cannot see farther because some admiral promoted the crew.

If you want to make more promotions, then I'll be all support, though!

I don't think you can model seaplanes through a promotion... radar probably, but not seaplanes. Radar sweeps in radius around the ship... certainly you could make some sort of "Sentry" like Radar promotion that saw a certain number of squares around a ship, but that does not (would not) mirror the capabilities of a scout plane.

A scout plane files in linear directions... north or south or east or west of a ship to scout-out for enemy forces or troops or whatever. Typical ranges of seaplanes were 600-1,000 miles depending on the nationality/type of seaplane. They were critical in finding enemy task forces in large ocean spaces... Midway was not won because of Radar... Midway was won because US scout planes spotted the Japanese task force before Japanese scout planes spotted the US task force. Both forces would have just been randomly sending out strike forces without knowing where the enemy was, and both forces found each other through scout planes of one type or another. I don't think you can recreate the effect of a scout plane with a promotion.

Mind you... there are already "scout" planes in the Wolfshanze Mod... a lot of nations (especially America) used carrier-based light bombers as scouts (such as the Dauntless), and you can certainly use both fighters and bombers on carriers as scouts right now as it stands... however, everytime I get around to needing/wanting to scout-out for the enemy and I have a carrier handy, I think about how much it cost to build that fighter or bomber, and how that if I use that fighter or bomber to scout this turn, that's one less fighter protecting my fleet or one less bomber able to attack this turn... adding a very inexpensive and combat-worthless scout plane (launched from cruisers or battleships), would be a guilt-free way of scouting by air without sacrificing fleet defense or bomber operations (or sacrificing crucial carrier capacity just for a scout plane... a cruiser or battleship could carry the scout).

Oh, and somebody mentioned scout planes being on WWI Dreadnoughts... well, the capacity would be there, you just wouldn't be able to do it until WWII timeframe (scout planes on ships really weren't common until after WWI, but they were retrofitted to WWI Dreadnoughts). Simply by making scout planes available with WWII aircraft (not WWI aircraft), Dreadnoughts in WWI would not carry any aircraft, but those Dreadnoughts that survive till WWII would be able to carry them (I already thought this angle out).

Oh, and I would probably make WWI Zeppelins upgradeable to WWII Scout Planes... just thought I'd toss that out there.

#1, i'm thinking no. the game promotes combined arms tactics so i will normally use fighters on carriers for recon on oceans and over other continents.

#2, i will answer this be giving an example from one of my previous games. i can't remember in which version of the mod this change was made, but when explorers were beefed up a bit, in my next game, peter the great began using these to defend cities AND as part of his invasion forces. this has since changed, but the point is, it does happen.

This would probably be the best argument to NOT implement scout planes... AI use (or misuse).

This is in-fact my biggest delima that has no real answer, because it would really require a lot of playtesting that you can't just set-up in the WB realistically. Maybe I could just add them to the mod and throw it out there and if folks didn't like it because the AI misused the heck out of them, I'd take them back out again?!?!? It's really not much XML work on my part... it's adding one new unit... adding the Scout Plane special category and assigning it to a few ships.

Hopefully AI misuse would be curtailed by AI "use" tags in the unit info (what the unit is used for) and limitations of bases (can't be used on carriers, only one per CA or BB, and no-more then four in a city, which hopefully will have fighters and/or bombers instead).

Oh, and to address something a little off-topic (but somewhat related), the new use of Explorers in the last release of the Wolfshanze Mod... they weren't made "stronger" per-se... all their stats are the same... but I did flag Explorers as able to make attacks where before they weren't. The AI "use tags" stayed the same (so I didn't order the AI to use them differently either). I have played a game with Explorers having the ability to attack... I had 18 civs in my game... ONE AI did seem to use Explorers quite a bit in a manner not-really intended... the Khmer... but I can't blame them... I was at war with them in the late middle ages, and I had deprived the Khmer of all their useful resources (they had none in-fact... no copper, no iron), so there were only two units they could really build... Archers and Explorers... so while I did see the Khmer with more Explorers then normal, I excused it as a situational issue... I didn't notice any of the other civs over-using Explorers in my game from what I was used to in past experiences.

It has been refreshing to me to be able to use an Explorer to clear a goody hut protected by a lone Str-2 Barbarian Warrior however... nothing more frustrating then seeing totally backwards savages and your Explorer can't get at their gold or rape their women because they're not allowed to attack. I actually like this change, and I can reason-away the Khmer use... I didn't notice the AI abusing Explorers in any other civ.

Oh well... guess I gotta ponder this seaplane thing a bit more...

 

[Healz]

Actually with scout planes, the limit should be two for most battleships. This seems to be what I have seen them equipped to fly off. Also I can remember one interesting modification from C3C where there was a Pacific Scenario where you could load Marines onto Battleships with only one on there and then off-load them elsewhere. I am not sure whether you could have the scoutplane and the marine modification on at the same time for this one. I can remember that most battleship designs from WWII used two sea-planes on launchers on the deck. Does this mean though, that in the modern era it could be used to base anti-submarine helicopters on destroyers and cruisers? Just a suggestion as there are no real anti-submarine warfare protection in the mod. For WW2 you could make a Sunderland or a Catalina an anti-submarine patrol plane. They were not based on carriers but then not too many dedicated anti-sub patrol planes until after WW2.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Actually with scout planes, the limit should be two for most battleships.

Well, if the scale is 1-unit = 1-plane, then I better bump carriers air capacity up from 3-units to about 70-units.

 

[c0d5579]

Midway was not won because of Radar... Midway was won because US scout planes spotted the Japanese task force before Japanese scout planes spotted the US task force. Both forces would have just been randomly sending out strike forces without knowing where the enemy was, and both forces found each other through scout planes of one type or another. I don't think you can recreate the effect of a scout plane with a promotion.

Nitpicking on this one; Midway was won because of a combination of land-based bombers spotting the Japanese fleet, and American carrier-based bombers then fixing its position, and even then, the dive-bombers, which decided the contest, were at the very limit of their range and got lucky. The carrier planes weren't scout planes on that flight, either, they were loaded for bear. The Americans essentially were sending out strike forces and getting lucky. Unless that's the point you were trying to make, in which case, insert some other minor disagreement to your tastes.

Given that Civ4 turn length is usually defined as longer than a single day, you certainly could model scout planes by "Sentry," especially if you had a series of visibility-increasing "Sentry" promotions. I'm fairly sure that even with manual refueling, they could launch flights in all of the compass directions over six months.

Had a lot more, but then I realized it was a series of gray areas that needed further thinking through; I seem to do my best work when I'm supposed to be doing something else.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Nitpicking on this one; Midway was won because of a combination of land-based bombers spotting the Japanese fleet, and American carrier-based bombers then fixing its position

You're skipping ahead... while loaded bombers from Midway and the American strike force both "finalized" locations and did some of their own scouting, NEITHER loaded bombers from Midway NOR loaded bomber strike forces from the American Carriers were sent out to attack the Japanese without FIRST having been spotted by scout planes... you conveniently omitted the scout planes role in the Battle of Midway here. You don't think the Americans just randomly sent-up all their squadrons of fully loaded bombers from Midway and the Carriers without having made a single contact first, do you? That would be tactical suicide! They just didn't do that.

Sorry c0d5579, but your mistaken on this one... US scout planes spotted the Japanese force first, and from that information, the decision to launch fully loaded bombers from both Midway and the carriers were made at that time... contact had been lost, and many of the bombers (especially the carrier bombers) had to make their own corrections to find the Japanese, but neither force would have been launched in the first place without a scout plane making the initial contact... you omitted the scout planes from their initial critical role in Midway.

 

[arstal]

It has been refreshing to me to be able to use an Explorer to clear a goody hut protected by a lone Str-2 Barbarian Warrior however... nothing more frustrating then seeing totally backwards savages and your Explorer can't get at their gold or rape their women because they're not allowed to attack. I actually like this change, and I can reason-away the Khmer use... I didn't notice the AI abusing Explorers in any other civ.

Oh well... guess I gotta ponder this seaplane thing a bit more...

Idea: make the conquistador a UU from the Explorer? Trying to make that unit less useless- 2nd worst UU in the game as of now.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Idea: make the conquistador a UU from the Explorer? Trying to make that unit less useless- 2nd worst UU in the game as of now.

Might not be a bad idea... maybe make the Conquistador a Str-8 Explorer or something and give the Spanish back the Cuirassier unit. That way Spain would have a very strong offensive explorer unit that can go out on Caravels... that might actually be a cool idea... might have to put more thought into what it can/can't do and what bonuses it would have if any.

A little off-topic, but in your mind, what's the worst UU in the game?

 

[IagoAlberto]

I like the idea of the scout plane, although maybe only allow it to be carried by the heavy cruisers. I play your mod mostly to fight intercontinental wars in the industrial-modern age so I have a good handle on the units and I really don't use heavy cruisers much. I think only giving heavy cruisers scout planes would both be historically accurate and balanced for gameplay. Although I know most battleships of the era carried spotters and sometimes alot of them. Also you might want to think about adding an ASW helicopter as their replacement to go on missile cruisers and stealth destroyers, although how you would implement them so they aren't overpowering against naval units I don't know.

As for the explorers, you're mostly right although I just had a game as the japanese where I was attacked by a stack of American 'Davy Crockets'! The war was a late classical one just before the medaeval war techs were in and the americans did have iron. They even had a fair number of 'Davy Crockets' after machinery, but the numbers quickly dropped after that. Still I almost fell off my chair laughing when 'Davy Crocket' invaded the japanese empire, only to be killed by Samurai . . .

 

[Ninja2]

Speaking of goody huts... I hope you don't mind me asking in this thread, Wolf, if you do, I'm sure you'll tell me!

What would people think about removing the ability of workers, workboats, warriors, archers, axemen, swordsmen and all siege weapons to remove fog of war? And then giving every CIV an extra scout at the beginning of the game?

 

[Wodan]

Speaking of goody huts... I hope you don't mind me asking in this thread, Wolf, if you do, I'm sure you'll tell me!

What would people think about removing the ability of workers, workboats, warriors, archers, axemen, swordsmen and all siege weapons to remove fog of war? And then giving every CIV an extra scout at the beginning of the game?

It would be pretty critical to spam scouts, then, because of barb spawning.

Wodan

 

[Ninja2]

Barbarian spawning is based on unowned plots, not unrevealed plots. But I take it that you think it's a bad idea?