Holkan's have use- they survive better vs an Axe rush, and I think they're resource free as well. I've actually rushed with them before.
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[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0
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Holkan's have use- they survive better vs an Axe rush, and I think they're resource free as well. I've actually rushed with them before.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
That would probably be my biggest fear... is that a scout-plane might nerf subs to the point of useless.
I probably need to check into this more... are spotted subs still only attackable by destroyers, or can any ship attack a sub once it's spotted? If it's the latter, I think scout planes spotting subs would be too much. I should probably know the answer to that question, but I don't without checking in-game.
Still, I kinda like the idea of scout planes... perhaps the biggest decision is to make them exclusive just to cruisers (to make cruisers more useful... ie: gameplay balance), or give them both to cruisers and battleships (historical use, though it may continue to make cruisers a less optimal choice on the purchase list).
IagoAlberto
Warlord
You're quite right that battleships carried scout planes, sometimes alot, I believe Yamato and Musashi carried something like six and mostt BB's of the era had hangerage for 2 or more. On the other hand, in most navies cruisers did the scouting and from the late 20's they did this with float planes. The Japanese and the Americans gave their cruisers big capacities for Scout planes for precisely this reason.
In all of these navies' doctrines it was generally envisioned that scout planes launched from cruisers would do scouting for the battleline while the the float planes on battleships would spot their own ship's fall of shot. If you look at several early war battles scouting was done with float planes from cruisers. For instance at Midway alot of the Japanese scouting was done by float planes off cruisers rather than with carrier planes. So I think there is a good historical argument for using cruisers as the sole scout plane carrier.
As to ASW helos, they would be cool but they would definitely need a spot probability, maybe something like 20-40%. They should also act like planes with fairly short range like rng 3-5. Also, to avoid making them too powerful I think it would be good that only ships that could spot submarines could attack the subs spotted by the helos. This could represent the fact that many helo's are controlled from their parent ships, which coordinate the ASW engagement between multiple platforms.
Just some thoughts
In all of these navies' doctrines it was generally envisioned that scout planes launched from cruisers would do scouting for the battleline while the the float planes on battleships would spot their own ship's fall of shot. If you look at several early war battles scouting was done with float planes from cruisers. For instance at Midway alot of the Japanese scouting was done by float planes off cruisers rather than with carrier planes. So I think there is a good historical argument for using cruisers as the sole scout plane carrier.
As to ASW helos, they would be cool but they would definitely need a spot probability, maybe something like 20-40%. They should also act like planes with fairly short range like rng 3-5. Also, to avoid making them too powerful I think it would be good that only ships that could spot submarines could attack the subs spotted by the helos. This could represent the fact that many helo's are controlled from their parent ships, which coordinate the ASW engagement between multiple platforms.
Just some thoughts
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Oh I know darn-well that battleships carried scout planes... if I wanted to be "historically" accurate in adding scout planes, I'd add them to both cruisers and battleships... problem is, you can't always be historically accurate when you have to consider gameplay balance too. A lot of folks (self included) are probably building mostly battleships for their heavies and destroyers for anti-sub warfare and leaving poor-old heavy cruisers out in the cold. Giving seaplanes to both cruisers and battleships would give no respite for the cruiser... but if seaplanes could ONLY be carried by cruisers, it might give them a little more gameplay relevance.
While I hate the thought of not giving battleships their seaplanes, it might be better for gameplay balance to do so... and it can be justified somewhat historically, as you say, because cruisers have always been envisioned (certainly from the 20s through 40s) as the "eyes of the fleet".
While I hate the thought of not giving battleships their seaplanes, it might be better for gameplay balance to do so... and it can be justified somewhat historically, as you say, because cruisers have always been envisioned (certainly from the 20s through 40s) as the "eyes of the fleet".
Wodan
Deity
Well I know for sure that if you have a destroyer present that your other ships can attack them. I would think the scout-plane would work the same way. i.e., all it really does is "reveal" the sub to you the player, at which point you have all your normal options with any of your units.
Wodan
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
I rarely encounter enemy subs, and when I do, its always with destroyers (go figure)... can "normal" ships (ie: battleships and the like) attack a "discovered" sub, or can only destroyers do it? That's my question... because if ANYONE can attack a sub, and the only protection they have is not being seen, then a plane that can spot subs would nerf subs quite a bit... but if ONLY destroyers can attack subs, then that's another story.
I can't stress how important it is for subs to learn the lesson of Not Being Seen.
Oh never mind... I think I just reread your last post and you answered my question... so yes... you can attack a spotted sub... if that's the case, I would think a plane that can spot subs would be too much and would nerf any use of a sub.
arithegreat
world ruler
Anyone can attack it when it have been seen I use gunships or planes and ships for my sub hunting
IagoAlberto
Warlord
I definitely agree with you Wolf that if you do implement scout planes, only cruisers should get them. I was just arguing in a round about way that this should be the case. I think it would be a good reason to build Heavy Cruisers. I often find in my games with your mod, my only heavy cruisers are upgraded pre-dreadnoughts and if they sink I don't replace them. IMHO float planes should definitely not be able to spot subs. I find subs marginal enough as is and making float planes spot them would entirely nerf them.
Preslav
Chieftain
I played on your mod alot these past 2 days. Feedback- A I really liked it, especially the unique skins on the different units, the new leaders and civs and the UU's. The greatest part of all was the horde of new land air and sea units of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. That adds alot more depth to the game; something I honestly think that should be greatly improved in future civ games. I'm really looking forward to even bigger and better versions of your mod!
Preslav
Chieftain
How about give the scout plane a 25% chance to spot submarines in its flight path?
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Thanks for the kind words... glad you are enjoying the mod.
Easier said then done... I'm really not looking to nerf subs anymore anyways... subs are weak-enough as-is to start unraveling the only advantage they have.
Maybe just give cruisers free sentry promotions then, and abstract the whole thing out?
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Because "Sentry" does NOT equal the effects of a seaplane (sentry is more like radar). What's wrong with a seaplane that folks would rather have sentry?
Gaius Octavius
Deity
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Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Neither can Sentry...Also recon planes can't be intercepted.
Gaius Octavius
Deity
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Neither can Sentry...
That is true, but sentries aren't supposed to be interceptable in the real world. As you said, that is more akin to radar.
Personally, I never use recon units in the game, not even scouts or explorers, unless I get one from a hut. They are too weak and too easily ambushed. I do use subs on occasion but they are more for raiding/spy transportation/wolfpack purposes. However, if you could add in a recon interception code, and give the scout plane a high evasion probability, I'd say go for it.
Speaking of which, have you ever thought of changing the name of this mod to "Wolfpack"?
Xenomorph
King
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2007
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- 972
I have code that lets them be intercepted. I haven't tested it with 3.13, though.Neither can Sentry...
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
What version is the code for? I'm about to start asking favors for a new Gamecore.DLL for v3.17 anyways (I just got a no-cd exe for v3.17 too to save me the trouble of having to break-out my CD).
But yes... I'd be interested in all recon missions being interceptable.
Wodan
Deity
Something else you could consider Wolf is making post-WWII subs immune to being spotted by aircraft, period. I'm sure I don't have to go through all the reasons for that.
Maybe this becomes a trait of subs, or perhaps something that is turned on or off by technology.
Wodan
Maybe this becomes a trait of subs, or perhaps something that is turned on or off by technology.
Wodan
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