[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Wodan]

I gotcher "proof" right here.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Romans DEFINATELY used Bronze Swords, or do you think I doctored the photo above and broke into several hundred websites and spread deceit and lies.

Roman Bronze Swords have been around for a long time and were slowly phased-out... they didn't just magically switch over every soldier to iron swords the minute iron became available across the entire roman military.

For gameplay reasons it's also much simpler to argue that it's more feasible the best melee troop of Ancient times (Swordsmen) used Bronze then it is to argue the best melee troop of Medieval times (Macemen) used Bronze... or am I going to get the "Everything Firaxis decides is always best for everybody" defense again?

UU's add-on and improve on the base unit... if the base unit is a Bronze/Iron-age swordsmen, then why would the UU remove the ability to be made out of Bronze?

The Romans used Bronze Swords... this is FACT... I don't make this stuff up people. Ancient people using bronze swords is nothing new, and this includes Roman use. I'll bet you'd be much harder-pressed to find widespread use of macemen with bronze armor and weapons in Medieval Europe though... oddly enough, I'm still trying to find someone to stand up and give me the same BS line of how Firaxis always knows best.

Now... the great Roman Legions of imperial times definitely used iron swords, but you can't say the Romans never used bronze swords either, because they did. I'm balancing this out with gameplay here folks... for everyone screaming Romans never had a bronze sword, or that the game will forever be ruined and totally unplayable because a leginonaire can be built with bronze weapons... I say why don't you ever complain why the best troops in medieval times can be made of bronze? Why is the game not forever ruined when iron starts in the BFC of a Roman Civ start?

I'm sorry folks... I'm not buying this junk about gameplay being forever ruined, or that Firaxis always makes the right decisions, or that the Romans never had bronze swords in their history, when in fact it's very easy to prove they did. Get a grip people... it's a very minor change, and it allows bronze to be used for more then one weapon (axemen) in ancient times, and it pulls bronze use OUT of the Medieval era which it has no place belonging at all, most of all being allowed to build the best medieval melee unit with bronze, which is 10,000 times more idiotic then Romans with bronze swords which seems to get everyone in a tizzy.

 

[NovaDream]

Just downloaded this Mod a few days ago, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I wanted to say thank you for that.

I also had a question.
On page 72, Jeff1782 asked if there was any chance for scrolls being worked into this MOD. I'm not sure if it was answered previous to that, but his question seemed to have gotten lost. I play the BUG MOD as a default experience, and wondered if you would ever incorporate similar features into this MOD.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Just downloaded this Mod a few days ago, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I wanted to say thank you for that.

Glad you're enjoying it.

I also had a question.
On page 72, Jeff1782 asked if there was any chance for scrolls being worked into this MOD. I'm not sure if it was answered previous to that, but his question seemed to have gotten lost. I play the BUG MOD as a default experience, and wondered if you would ever incorporate similar features into this MOD.

I'm not really looking into doing much more "mod-related" work... as-in incorporating other mods at this time. I do offer the attitude emoticons companion mod on the first page of this thread which is a small portion of he BUG mod.

 

[Chuggi]

You're blowing this out of proportion, Wolfshanze. Anyway, what makes you think you know better than a team of game developers who spend months just working on the balance of the game alone? I don't care about your "realism" argument either, as when you think about it, the praetorians without steel armour would be weaker than the ones who have steel armour. Does your mod account for that?

Also, in your post above you repeated the same thing about 5 times over. You could have fitted that all in one paragraph.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Anyway, what makes you think you know better than a team of game developers who spend months just working on the balance of the game alone?

What makes you think a handful of 20-something college kids who may spend a few months to a year on play-balance while (most likely) also juggling multiple other projects/deadlines and various conflicts know more about play balance and pertaining to history then someone with 30+ years of historical research who's spent years playing the Civ games from Civ1 to Civ4 and who also takes into consideration considerable thought of other numbers-based wargames he's been playing since the 1970s into consideration on play balance? I even wrote (what I consider to be) the first Mod for Civ2 in the 1990s and was contacted by Brian Reynolds about some of the changes I had made (my mod was even made mention in Computer Gaming World Magazine). The game company SSI outsourced work on Panzer General II (PG2) for me to work on, after I heavily modified their game of Pacific General... I'm also listed in the credits of PG2 on the CD-ROM, so I'd like to think I have some capabilities of my own to make a few gameplay decisions on computer games... it's nothing new for me, and I actually have several mentions in magazines, CD-ROMs and have personally been involved with the development of computer games and play balance over the years.

One only has to look at the numerous historical inaccuracies in the game which are clearly NOT gameplay sacrifices, and the constant massive changes in gameplay issues from one patch to the next to know that what Firaxis is/has been doing does not mean they are all geniuses who know what is best over all others. I like how you continually dodge relevant points I continually make (and I have to repeat myself, because you're very good at refusing to answer direct questions which you know will prove Firaxis and your blind backing of them wrong).

Let's face facts... Firaxis has made some really questionable calls in several issues and the fact you blindly ignore them and/or sweep them under the rug and keep saying they are infallible and always know best without ever once questioning that maybe... just maybe your godlike worship of all things Firaxis might be built on a house of cards has you worried about your ability to objectively view things... just because they make a game doesn't mean they know everything about history and/or how best to implement it in a game... believe it or not... people... even 20-something college kid game designers with a BA in computer science as opposed to a Masters in history (like someone I know) might actually get some things wrong from time to time.

Just because someone changes something Firaxis does, don't get worried that the entire universe will come crashing down and the entire game instantly becomes unplayable... trust me on this one... it is possible to change what Firaxis did and have an enjoyable experience... in-fact, I'd bet you a fair amount of cash I could come up with a few folks who would tell you that the gameplay changes I've made are actually BETTER then what Firaxis (in all their infinite infallible wisdom decided) did to the game.

Sorry... but just because someone made the game I don't consider them the final word and masters of game balance. You can believe that in your own little world if you want, but I like to think that some things can be improved, and unlike those that seem to think it's either historical or gameplay but never both, are in-fact, quite wrong most of the time.

In the end, I'll reiterate I like to repeat myself when I prove a point and the other guy just kind of stands there and ignores answering what proved his point wrong in the first place. About the initial issue (Romans able to make bronze swords), you've kept saying it unbalances the game and messes everything up and that Firaxis in all their wisdom can't possibly be questioned in any game decision they make... sorry, but I find that stance total horse-hockey. I've made multiple statements (as you appear to have read) about how/why you're wrong on that thought path, and you continually refuse to answer them and continue to ignore every point I've made as to why I've made the change and why it doesn't ruin or unduly balance the game. If you'd answer the questions and points I've put to you why the changes are perfectly fine, I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

 

[Chuggi]

Ok, you know I'm not going to read all that. I still stand by my gameplay vs realism argument. So it's your mod, you can do what you like.

 

[Wodan]

What, exactly, is your gameplay argument? I looked back, and all I see about Praets is "they'd be too easy to get".

Simply adding a requirement of Iron won't change diddly. Iron is plentiful.

The only time it's even questionable about getting is if you do a custom map and overcrowd it, and in those games you simply have to do an early war (probably with Axes) anyway: whether you're Rome or not, you need to get expansion room. So if you're Rome, you simply pick your target as a neighbor who has Iron.

 

[Chuggi]

That's your opinion, isn't it? Maybe iron is plentiful in this mod, but in the vanilla game you sometimes have to find them and even build a city in a poor location just so you can secure it.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Ease-up Wodan... it's clear Chuggi has no argument... the only thing he keeps saying is it would be "too easy to get" ergo making the game "unbalanced"... even though he fails to address the fact that it's not exactly uncommon for Rome to start with Iron in their BFC or within a simple one-city expansion to get iron in most games anyways... plus the fact he thinks getting swordsmen with copper is too easy, but getting macemen with copper is perfectly fine, logical and reasonable.

I've never lost a game to Rome, even if they start with iron in their BFC... not exactly an uncommon thing to have happen... nor have I ever considered Rome starting with Iron in their neighborhood completely unbalanced and a ruined game experience.

Oh, and I've never altered any of the resources... they appear just as often or not as they do in the vanilla game... Chuggi just doesn't want to admit that if Rome starts with access to Iron (which happens more then he's willing to admit) that the game isn't totally ruined. He also doesn't want to discuss why it's okay for macemen to be built with copper in medieval times... because Firaxis is all-knowing and every decision they make is always best for us... he defends Firaxis like every decision they make comes from Mt Olympus.

I hope Chuggi realizes he is essentially arguing that if Rome can actually build their UU, the game is over and it's unfair. I'm beginning to think he's just here to piss in the thread, cuz he certainly won't discuss anything objectively.

Chuggi needs to spend less time worrying about the Wolfshanze Mod and more time releasing his anyways!

 

[Wodan]

I hope Chuggi realizes he is essentially arguing that if Rome can actually build their UU, the game is over and it's unfair.

Well yes that's my point. It has nothing to do with what resources it requires, it's the outcome when it does happen. Frequency is not the way to balance the game. Frequency adds game variety, which is an entirely different thing than balance.

Anyway I don't think the Roman UU is overpowered. Simple Axes can take them on. All you have to do is compare on a hammer-cost basis.

 

[nv_civ]

Hum.. Forgive me to say I am missing the point in the last few exchanges. So Wolfshanze built a mod that quite a few Civ-users (and Firaxis customers by the way) seem to enjoy, as evidenced by the size of his audience. Me being one of them. Chuggi may disagree with certain aspects of it (as I do and I am sure several others), but overall it is a big improvement and a big (and unpaid, to the best of my knowledge) job - the guy and his team deserve credit, as all the other moders who forego their own (and often very limited) free time to improve our gaming experience.

I am all about accuracy (I am a scientist, following a research career where accuracy is crucial to get you from A to B) - but come on guys, let us not overdo it..You (and we as users) are all on the same boat!

 

[nv_civ]

Here are some thoughts about v2.80 and future updates:
Overall very good, despite some minor problems (which you anyhow seem to have accounted for in the new update). I have to say I did not notice any big difference with the "piratesmod" - what is it meant to do? I did find some barbarian triremes from time to time near the poles, but I think this is not new.

I agree with previous comments - as it stands the game is slightly unbalanced, in the sense that there is now a wealth of 2WW units to choose from, but once you enter the modern era your options are vastly limited to these of the vanilla version. Of course the same argument could go for other eras, but I personally find myself playing the modern era the longest, so it would be nice to have a bit more to choose from. The poor greeks seem also to have attracted very modest changes in the appearance of their modern era units (unlike, say, the Germans). Same goes for some other civilizations (I happened to play with the Greeks this time).

I also notice that most of your efforts so far have concentrated on units -how about some new buildings/wonders or even some new random events? Any plans of doing something in these lines?

Finally, in my opinion there are two major areas that could add huge value to the game but they are consistently underplayed (maybe for a reason - I am talking as a mere user) : I have already posted you my views about one of these, the UN, you said you are unsure, so I am not going to argue further on it this time. The second is "space conquest". As it stands, it all comes down to the construction of a spaceship - nothing exciting. Would it be possible to add a bit more to it (say satellites that can be controlled like units to spy on opponents). Of course one could say, why stop there, construct a second planet that can be colonized..But I guess that would be too much for a mod, it would actually make it a new game!

 

[Wolfshanze]

A quick note here...

On the Greeks (especially "modern" Greeks), a lot of what I put into the mod I get from others... and simply-put, there's not much out there for modern Greek (and some other nations) forces. People tend to make a lot of models for Germany, England, France, etc, but when it comes to the "lesser" powers, they're a little slower to get units, especially modern.

I know you say you spend a lot of time in the modern era, and while I certainly wouldn't hesitate to agree what you say is what you do, my own research (and own experience) finds that most players of Civ4 are either done or near-done playing the game once they reach modern times. Once I reach jets, mech infantry and the like, my games are either done or just winding-up to completion... and from a few polls and questions I've put out there, most Civ players (certainly not all) also share that similarity of ending games by the modern age.

This probably explains why there's a lot more ancient, medieval and industrial units to choose from in the database then there are modern ones... it's simply a matter of interest and use, as everyone plays these ages, but there's a large portion of Civ players that are basically done playing by the modern age.

Once again, not saying you don't spend a lot of time in the modern era... I'm sure there are those that do... and I'm not saying I'm deliberately ignoring the era in flavor units... to the contrary, I'm usually hunting to fill the later-ages with custom units because I want the game to be covered from stone-age to nuclear age... it's just there's not a lot out there, but I do try and sneak in what I can with each release.

In fact, there's quite a large number of mods out there that mostly cover ancient to medieval and/or Renaissance but there's few that go to the extent mine does in covering the industrial age and modern age (when I say modern, this includes WWII, though I know you are referring mostly to current technology... by strict Civ4 terms, WWII is considered "Modern" by the game). I do my best to cover all ages, but with some nations (like Greece) it's just harder to find the modern stuff.

 

[Xenomorph]

I have to say I did not notice any big difference with the "piratesmod" - what is it meant to do? I did find some barbarian triremes from time to time near the poles, but I think this is not new.

The Pirates Mod is a simple mod that really only does one thing; when the game spawns a barbarian ship than can carry units (like the galley, galleon, or transport), there is a 50% chance that it will place units into that vessel appropriate to the era you are in (warriors and axemen in galleys, etc). As a result, whenever you see a barbarian galley or galleon, you'd best destroy it as you may otherwise find yourself facing a barbarian raiding party.

I also notice that most of your efforts so far have concentrated on units -how about some new buildings/wonders or even some new random events? Any plans of doing something in these lines?

JKP's custom events would be great. If Wolf ever wants to add those in, I'm game. Heck, I managed to add a new National Wonder in my mod that allows a city that is built on or near tundra to avoid starving do to a lack of food. Fun, that one.

I have already posted you my views about one of these, the UN, you said you are unsure, so I am not going to argue further on it this time.

The biggest problem with adding more stuff to the UN is that it requires coding (either Python or SDK, I'm not sure). Either way, making code up from scratch is rather impossible if you don't know anything about coding in either language.

The second is "space conquest". As it stands, it all comes down to the construction of a spaceship - nothing exciting. Would it be possible to add a bit more to it (say satellites that can be controlled like units to spy on opponents). Of course one could say, why stop there, construct a second planet that can be colonized..But I guess that would be too much for a mod, it would actually make it a new game!

Again, adding new options for the space race requires coding, likely SDK changes, and that would mean some major changes to gameplay. Unless someone else can provide the code to pull it off, it's not likely going to happen.

 

[Onionsoilder]

One thing I have noticed is with Wolfshanze is that civilizations seem much more likely to massive DOW. I often see groups of 3-4 different civilizations teaming up on one individual one, even when all civs are of the same religion, pleased, etc. I like this aspect, as it seems more realistic, but what doesn't seem realistic is that every other civilization is reluctant to team up and fight the groupers, leading to every civilization getting picked off one by one. So just a suggestion, though I'm not so sure how difficult it would be, but could you program the A.I. to make it more likely for the defenders to team up? So instead of having a 4 vs 1, followed by another 4 vs 1, then another 4 vs 1, there would be one massive WWI-styles 4 vs 4 match?

 

[Wolfshanze]

Who wouldn't want to get-in on the 4 vs 1 action? Piling on happens all the time...

But who in their right mind is going to side with the "1" guy when he's fighting 4 opponents? That wouldn't be more realistic... nations have a tendency not to side with someone who's clearly getting outnumbered.

 

[Xenomorph]

I've seen cases of 4v4. You have to wait until Defense Pact has been discovered, though.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Who wouldn't want to get-in on the 4 vs 1 action? Piling on happens all the time...

But who in their right mind is going to side with the "1" guy when he's fighting 4 opponents? That wouldn't be more realistic... nations have a tendency not to side with someone who's clearly getting outnumbered.

Yes, but even with defensive pacts, 4 vs 4s rarely happen... usually 4 people declare war on one guy, then the other civ in the pact only declares war on one of the four, not all four...

 

[NovaDream]

I notice piling on happening in the early game and post Feudalism, more 2v2 4v4, usually because of vassal states and the Apostolic Palace. I like this because it adds tension to the gameplay. I don't however, IMO notice an increased occurrence of this in the Wolfshanze MOD.