BTS Roleplaying Challenge: Brennus

[Firewind]

Ok, since Slobberinbear makes it look so fun, I've decided to try running a Celtic roleplaying challenge. I'll freely admit that I'm nowhere near his caliber of playing, nevermind the bulk of frequent players here (I tend to lurk around Warlord, making brief forays into Noble from time to time). Thus, my challenge probably won't be anywhere near as interesting as his will be, but I'm hoping it'll be fun, and I might even learn a thing or two.

I've chosen to play as the Celts, being Celtic myself (Welsh). Brennus is my chosen leader - with Charismatic and Spiritual as traits, I feel he will be a good leader to use either for war or for peaceful building, as needed.

I've come up with a bundle of rules defining their restrictions. Feel free to comment on any of them, or suggest ones I should add or take away.

1. Theocratic - will not allow other religions into the empire. All cities must have a missionary available before being founded if a religion is present. The Holy Shrine -must- be built as soon as possible.
2. Must not chop forests outside the BFC. Jungles may be chopped as we see fit.
3. Must trade resources where and when possible, attaining the best available price for our goods, fair or not.
4. If another civilization makes an arrogant demand, we MUST go to war with them for better or worse.
5. May not trade away spiritual or artistic techs. (Practical techs may be traded).
6. Must not start wars without RP provocation.
7. No Slavery Civic, no Vassals, no Capitulation.
8. Must raze all captured cities in war.

Once I have the logistics and such ironed out, I'll post the starting screenshot. I play every night most of the time, usually just after college, so I'll try to take notes and make a full report of my turns nightly.

On that note, should I play a set number of turns a night, or just play what feels right? The former is more even, but may get repetitive or boring over time for me. The latter will result in more sporadic bursts of posting and reports each night, depending on what I got done, but means I can get to what I feel is a milestone each time I report.

 

[Elrohir]

No Slavery Civic, no Vassals, no Capitulation.

Why? I mean didn't the Celts have some form of slavery? (I know they did sacrifice some people for rare religious offerings) Maybe some sort of compromise - only slavery for religious related buildings, or something. And as for the Vassal thing, maybe it could be allowed if they belong to your state religion, or something - a brother tribe in the faith, maybe.

I dunno, just throwing some interesting ideas out.

 

[Firewind]

No Slavery was a suggestion from my friend, who has some interest in the ancient Celts and has done a little studying. While they may have made religious offerings, each person had their jobs to fulfill - slaves were for the wealthy and those who wished for a comfortable life, something which didn't appeal to them. As for Vassals, they are by their very nature inferior to their master - and the Celts have no interest in carrying anyone who cannot hold their own weight. Vassalizing is just a complex form of slavery at the end of the day, to boot - which is why I've ruled it out along with slavery.

Interesting ideas, but from my last hour's discussion and pondering, not in fitting with Celtic belief or culture.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Just one word... "Stone'enge"

 

[madscientist]

Not sure of all these but here it goes

[*]Theocratic - will not allow other religions into the empire. All cities must have a missionary available before being founded if a religion is present. The Holy Shrine -must- be built as soon as possible.

Not sure about the logistics of this, especially since theology is a late religious tech. Perhaps you mean to stay in theocracy when available but that doesn't fit Brennus who's favorite civic is organized religion.

[*]Must not chop forests outside the BFC. Jungles may be chopped as we see fit.

I don't see the point for this.

[*]Must trade resources where and when possible, attaining the best available price for our goods, fair or not.

OK

[*]If another civilization makes an arrogant demand, we MUST go to war with them for better or worse.

Sounds like the Celtic thing to do. What if they are pleased or friendly and make a request, that OK?

[*]May not trade away spiritual or artistic techs. (Practical techs may be traded).

Good. You may want to make a list of the techs though.

[*]Must not start wars without RP provocation.

Nah, I think Brennus can declare war at cautious or worse. I think Pleased or better he should not be able to.

[*]No Slavery Civic, no Vassals, no Capitulation.

OK, you will not accept an AIs capitulation, how about a fight to the death, never peace once war starts? I think Slavery and Vassalage are OK. The one you do not want to free religion.

[*]Must raze all captured cities in war.
.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Here's another, must found cities on hills only. Regenerate the starting map until you get a start with a few hills in the capital. I think there is an option for "Hilly" terrain I just do not recall it's proper name. Also. every city must have a dun within a reasonable time (gotta build it before a library say, but Ok for a granery first). All cities must have a castles before teching economics.

Late game ideas. Gotta start on late game wonders as soon as available (you are charamatic). Means start to building Broadway as soon as you tech electricity, rock N Roll and Christo redentor as soon as you get radio, Hollywood as soon as you get Mass Media.

Some other worker related items. Forts must be built in territory within cultural bounds, but not in a city's BFC, exceptions natural defenses such as forrests and jungles. For the reason Mathematics should be prioritized.

Oh, yeah. Stonehenge is required victory and must be built as soon as reasonably possible. If you miss out on it attempts must me made to get your hands on it even if you have to take it from another Ai on a different continent. This is the only exception to the rule all captured cities must be razed.

Some suggestions.

 

[Firewind]

Not sure about the logistics of this, especially since theology is a late religious tech. Perhaps you mean to stay in theocracy when available but that doesn't fit Brennus who's favorite civic is organized religion.

Theolcracy isn't that late, not to me usually anyway, and as long as I move quickly I should be able to nab it before I risk getting more than one religion (especially since I'll also be spamming my founded religion into my cities).

I don't see the point for this.

I can't use outside forests for chop-rushing, for instance. If it's not in my BFC I can't use it.

Sounds like the Celtic thing to do. What if they are pleased or friendly and make a request, that OK?

Requests won't trigger war, but they won't be accepted either - trades, on the other hand, are fine.

Good. You may want to make a list of the techs though.

Well any tech which gives a religion is out. Music and Drama are both out, as well, along with Writing and Alphabet (Writing was a secret for the Druids to know). I'll make a more comprehensive list later.

Nah, I think Brennus can declare war at cautious or worse. I think Pleased or better he should not be able to.

He might declare at cautious or worse, if there's a reason. The Celts weren't conquerors, as long as they were left alone and their lands left untouched, they were quite content not to bother anyone else. Of course, any attempt to steal land will be provocation for war.

OK, you will not accept an AIs capitulation, how about a fight to the death, never peace once war starts? I think Slavery and Vassalage are OK. The one you do not want to free religion.

Once war starts, peace can only be bought via a suitable tribute - and it must be something which outweighs the benefits and losses of continuing the war versus ending it now. I.E. if we could earn more from sacking the opponent's land and routing them utterly than they can give us to buy peace, then let there be fire and razing.

Here's another, must found cities on hills only. Regenerate the starting map until you get a start with a few hills in the capital. I think there is an option for "Hilly" terrain I just do not recall it's proper name.

I'd rather not regen the map, but favoring hills was a plan to begin with due to the Dun benefit. Taking that as a rule should be fine.

Also. every city must have a dun within a reasonable time (gotta build it before a library say, but Ok for a granery first). All cities must have a castles before teching economics.

That makes sense, to an extent. I like Duns for the promotion bonus (I'm quite the fan of Guerilla 3 promotions, and coupled with Charismatic and a Barracks I'm only one or two fights away from getting it in any eligible unit with a Dun), and I like Castles simply because castles are cool. Yeah, I think that can be a nice rule to go with.

Late game ideas. Gotta start on late game wonders as soon as available (you are charamatic). Means start to building Broadway as soon as you tech electricity, rock N Roll and Christo redentor as soon as you get radio, Hollywood as soon as you get Mass Media.

Not quite sure of your reasoning here. Not too harsh a rule, but could you explain why, for my curiosity?

Some other worker related items. Forts must be built in territory within cultural bounds, but not in a city's BFC, exceptions natural defenses such as forrests and jungles. For the reason Mathematics should be prioritized.

Forts... Interesting. Sounds like a plan.

Oh, yeah. Stonehenge is required victory and must be built as soon as reasonably possible. If you miss out on it attempts must me made to get your hands on it even if you have to take it from another Ai on a different continent. This is the only exception to the rule all captured cities must be razed.

But of course, what's a Celtic civilization without Stonehenge?

 

[madscientist]

Not quite sure of your reasoning here. Not too harsh a rule, but could you explain why, for my curiosity?

:

More to do with the Charismatic trait and making the people more happy. Plays about Brennus, Songs about Brennus, Movies about Brennus. After thousands of years of success, I think he would be entitled to it. One way of relating the techs to a past civilization. Also something to strive for so we don't lose the Celtic flavor. Also puts a little choice in the later game teching, you may not want electricity that early if you have to dedicate a city to it's production the next turn. Similar to Slobbering bear's dilema about medicine/envirnmentalism.

The Christo redentor is a religious symbol late in the game, sort of bring's Stonehenge (the earliest religious wonder) full circle to the latest, CR.

Any idea of what the Celts view on Corps would be?

Any limits on victory conditions?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Maybe I've been reading too many fantasy novels, but I would expect

1) Stonehenge
2) No chopping of the sacred groves
3) Brendan voyage

 

[Firewind]

Hmm, I see your point with that. Sounds good, I'll go with it.

Interesting point on Corps. After asking my friend about it, he thinks that locally founded corporations would be acceptable - as long as they aren't fielded overseas or to other countries. I.E. if I use a corporation, only I can use it, and I have to found it. I don't found it, I don't get to use it. (I'm not that experienced with Corps anyway so... )

As for victory conditions - I'm not sure, but since the Druids guard their religious secrets, active religion spreading is out, so A.P. isn't very feasible. Conquest isn't in the Celtic style, and I'm disabling Time since it makes me worry too much on my score. So, Domination, Spaceship, U.N., and Culture sound good?

 

[slobberinbear]

Hope you have fun with this Firewind. It is a blast, but I had no idea posting the game was so time-intensive. It's a labor of love.

I like all of the RP suggestions but have nothing new to add. I don't see anything wrong with early warring with Gallic Warriors, but then again I'm no Celtic scholar. There is nothing like sending a pack of Gallics with Guerrilla II screaming across the hills at high speed.

 

[Cer]

Conquest isn't in the Celtic style, and I'm disabling Time since it makes me worry too much on my score. So, Domination, Spaceship, U.N., and Culture sound good?

I can definitely see culture being a good celtic victory-- celtic culture is something of a legend at least all over the english-speaking world... celts' descendants have emigrated quite a lot. Somehow spaceship and celts just doesn't seem right. (Celts in modern day UK/Ireland/near there don't seem to be much in to making space rockets and shuttles, to my knowlege.)

If you're a "raze the enemy cities" type, it would make sense to win by conquest rather than by throwing settlers all over newly depopulated areas (that is, domination without captured cities).

 

[slobberinbear]

I wouldn't disable the victory conditions, Firewind ... let the AI go for whatever victories it chooses. The limits should be just on you, imposed voluntarily as part of the challenge.

 

[Firewind]

Aye, that's what I mean. I'm disabling Time entirely, but the AI can go for Conquest if they like. Since that means overrunning my cities, good luck to them, I'm pretty damn good at playing defensive when I want to

And Cer, I'm not the razing enemy cities type - but the Celts wouldn't be interested in subjugating outsiders to their culture, they'd just raze the city to the ground and then build a new settlement of their own nearby if it was appropriate. Having no Conquest but Domination victories means that there's even more of a challenge to winning.

And the Celts might not be much into it, but the British, who include at least two modern day Celtic peoples (The Welsh and the Scottish) are contenders for space. It's not likely to be a victory condition I go for unless it becomes a blatantly obvious choice, but I don't think it should be disallowed.

I like all of the RP suggestions but have nothing new to add. I don't see anything wrong with early warring with Gallic Warriors, but then again I'm no Celtic scholar. There is nothing like sending a pack of Gallics with Guerrilla II screaming across the hills at high speed.

Aye, the Celts will probably go to war - but they won't go to war unless there's a reason, although very close cities could be construed as a reason as the opponent may be trying to steal Celtic land with them. Basically, they'll war over maintaining their territory, or insults.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Stonehenge was not build by Celts (contrary to common misconception).

http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/faqs/stonehen.html

No, neither the druids nor the Celts built Stonehenge. Stonehenge was built long before the Celts arrived in Britain. But you don't have to take my word for it. Here are the opinions of a number of experts.

"No stage of the building of Stonehenge is later than about 1200 B.C., and any connection with the Druids, who flourished a thousand years later, is purely conjectural" (Jacquetta Hawkes ed., Atlas of Ancient Archaeology. New York: Barnes and Noble Books, 1994. 33).

"The early belief that the monument was built as a temple for sky worship has never been definitively proved. Even more fanciful was an earlier notion that Stonehenge was connected with the Druids, a caste of Celtic priests" (Compton's Encyclopedia. )

[According to Geoffrey of Monmouth, a twelfth-century author, Stonehenge was built by giants.] "So far as Geoffrey's giants have any reality, they are the pre-Celtic megalith-builders, imagined as huge because of the size of the stones" (Geoffrey Ashe "Stonehenge." The Arthurian Encyclopedia. Ed. Norris J. Lacey. Peter Bedrick Books: New York, 1986. 529.

 

[slobberinbear]

All true, Julian, but that's not the point.

My guess is that Firewind is going for "Celtic flavor" and trying to translate that into game terms that will be fun and provide a challenge. Historical accuracy is probably not his main objective. If you asked 100 Civ players if Stonehenge was "Celtic enough" to build, how many do you think would say no? Especially since Charismatic and Stonehenge are made for each other?

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Yep - gamewise it makes sense of course, Celts start with mysticism iirc which makes it even more tempting.

 

[Firewind]

Beyond the benefit of free monuments in every city, I like Stonehenge for centering the map - it helps me decide where to prioritise my explorations.

I'm just now getting the starting screens for the game - I just got in from college, so I'm just unloading my general buzz into a friend or two before I focus.

 

[Firewind]

Ok, here's my start point.

As you can see, I have a VERY strong start. Three clams, stone, on a coastal hill with a tribal village nearby. This suggests to me that I should shoot for Fishing and Masonry as fast as I can (after founding a religion since I have Mysticism).

Just to summarise, the full rules:

• No Conquest victory
• Only one Religion (Theocracy is a must)
• Must not share religion
• Must not share religious or artistic techs
• Locally founded Corps only, no spreading Corps to rivals
• No chopping forests outside the BFC
• Must trade resources whenever possible
• Must go to war over arrogant demands
• Must not start war without provocation
• Must raze all captured cities
• Must only found cities on Hills
• All cities must have a Dun
• All cities must have a Castle when possible.
• Must start on all modern Wonders as soon as available
• Must build forts on all squares outside of BFC that aren't forest or jungle.
• Must build Stonehenge
• When at war, will not go to peace without suitable tribute

Quite a sizable list of restrictions. Let's see how it goes, shall we?

 

[madscientist]

The question is which hill to settle one? My guess would be the NW hill as this allows more land to work and less sea squares, but depends on the turf in the north. Send the warrior to teh stone then decide. Etiher way no fresh water for the capital, the first problem with your restrictions.

Tech I would go Fishing/mining/BW/masonry/wheel/archery (if no close copper)/AH then start on the religious techs.

Build order: warrior/workboat/warrior/settler/worker/workboat/stonehenge. Let the second city worry about defensive units, the capital should be a production machine.

Question on corps: Do the Celts have to adopt mercantilism or state property once another AI founds a corp to prevent it's spread to you?

 

[Firewind]

Tech I would go Fishing/mining/BW/masonry/wheel/archery (if no close copper)/AH then start on the religious techs.

Remember that I need to spam a religion as soon as I get it - researching it myself would at least give me the benefit of the holy city and increased culture. Fishing makes a lot of sense as an immediate beeline, but I don't want to miss out on a religion.

Question on corps: Do the Celts have to adopt mercantilism or state property once another AI founds a corp to prevent it's spread to you?

I have no idea, I've never played a game that lasted long enough for corps to appear I suppose I should if they pop about, but I'm planning on trying to found the contradictory corps so others can't influence me as much. We'll see what happens when it happens.