Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by stmartin, Jan 3, 2009.
Actually all the graphics in this mod seem to be "borrowed" from Koei's ROTK game . . . .
Looks great. Unfortunately I probably will wait until June to play it after I return to China for a holiday.
One balancing suggestion: Lu Bu can be given a hero of Lu Bu himself, which starts with 1 or 2 guaranteed wins each round. This is both historically accurate and counters Cao Cao's rush a bit.
The Qing Zhou soldier as per description is too strong and not quite historically accurate. Their discipline is questionable (taking their general Xiahou Dun hostage) and were defeated by Zhang Xiu several times. The Guandu battle barely mentions the Qing Zhou soldier. In my opinion, the best UU for Cao Cao is either the Hu Bao Qi (translated "tiger and panther knights, swift Calvary with extra moves and withdraw chances) which are far more famous and historically important or a special catapult (which is invented by one of Cao's advisers, Liu Ye).
The best foot soldier of the time (not counting the supposedly strong barbarian soldiers) are from Dan Yang where Sun Ce and Yuan Shu draw the bulk of their armies from, and both Liu Bei and Cao Cao have benefited from their ferocious fight spirits.
Another suggestion without having played the MOD:
Food supply for the armies was a crucial issue in the Three Kingdom period. This can be modded by adding a supply wagons unit, which is weak and slow, but the only type of units allowed to take medic promotions (apart from Heroes, perhaps). All Land units (maybe also cargo units boarding the ships?) take damage every turn in enemy borders (cf: RFC's Russian Unique Power), but the presence of a supply wagon heals that effect. The unit is available to be built at the start of the game, siege unit class (so it can be flanked by calvary's flanking attacks, very importantly, but not by collateral damage). It can be used to create a supply camp (even in enemy borders) which is no longer vulnerable to flanking, gains a bit more strength, gains medic 2 in addition to medic 1, but becomes immobile and can be damaged via collateral. It takes a turn for a supply wagon to become a supply camp and vice versa.
Since many battles of the period are related to food supply, it feels wrong to leave it out (it may already be in the game, though, which I cannot testify). Some techs can give the supply wagon more strength/less vulnerable to flanking, etc, but I leave it for the developers to consider whether they like the unit.
Of course, food, as well as hammers, should be allowed to produce the supply wagon.
Yeah that sounds like itd be the reason, Steam thinks my game is fully up to date though
Ignore me for I am a fool!
I havn't actually installed the expansion yet
Yes, you are correct, all the leaderheads are from KOEI's ROTK 11, just as we have openly stated in the first post. They are really great.
Lu Bu will be a really strong combat hero in the coming version. Liu Ye's Pi Li machine and Dan Yang's elite soldiers are already in the game. Qing Zhou
Army is not the most strong uu in the game.
Giving the food supply unit a medic promotion is an interesting idea. Two months ago I thought about the food supply mechanics for a moment. That design includes turning population into laborer specialist to transport food in the city to the frontline, and setting up battleground barracks on a plot to store and supply food to nearby plots. This design is probably too complex and not too fun. However, the problem is, is a supply wagon unit with medic promotion and the ability to settle down into a camp enough to represent the role of food supply at that time? Can we dig deeper and make something even better in this direction?
The food wagon idea is already implemented in another BTS mod: Charlemagne.
But how much food is enough? 1 wagon for a stack of 30 units? Do heroes need food? Should wagons lower maintenance costs of armies outside your territory?
I would stay away from wagons for now and concentrate on other more "fun" stuff like stability.
lol, AP, I doubt the Maya SG players will agree that stability is the "fun" stuff.
Maybe we should have... plague as well?
Thanks for the reply. I am very glad that Pi Li machine and Dan Yang soldiers are in the game. (are the Hu Bao Qi in? They really should) But I really do not like the attention Qing Zhou army gets, it is more like a propaganda that KOEI creates.
(I will quote a bunch of Chinese texts, hope they will display correctly, all from the Records of Three Kingdoms which is the formal historical texts by Chen Shou).
From the biography of Cao Cao (武帝传
(Translate: In the winter, （Cao Cao) accepts the capitulation of more than 300,000 yellow turban soliders, and more than 1 million male and female yellow turban followers. He uses the best of them and call them the Qing Zhou soldiers.)
This is the familiar creation of the Qing Zhou soldier, which was the basis of Cao Cao's personal army. However, they really do not live to the reputation as elite fighters. It follows soon in the same biography:
(Lu Bu fields his army and sent his calvary to rout Qing Zhou army. The Qing Zhou army fled and Cao Cao's formation was disrupted).
That was the Qing Zhou army's performance in front of Lu Bu's calvary.
No mention of the group was made again in Cao Cao's biography, but more to follow in other generals' biography (Yu Jin) we found this: (于禁传
((after being defeated by Zhang Xiu) （Yu Jin) saw a dozen injured peasent walking (half?) naked on his way to Cao Cao's camp, and inquired the reasons. They told him that they were robbed by the Qing Zhou army)
This shows that the Qing Zhou army was not disciplined at all. The biography then followed with how Yu Jin defeated the rebelling Qing Zhou army and earned Cao Cao's trust.
In the biography of the Caos and the Xiahous (诸夏侯曹传, we also see this:
((Lu Bu) sent a general to trick Xiahou Dun and took him hostage (with some of his own soldiers), and asked for ransom. Dun's army was shocked in awe)
Though not explicitly mentioned, it is very possible that Xiahou Dun was in charge of the Qing Zhou army at the time. They were either involved in taking their own commander hostage or not reacting well to the situation.
Those are all the mentions of the Qing Zhou army in the records, which are all negative.
On the other hand, Hu Bao Qi has received favourable mentions, mostly in the biographies of the Caos and the Xiahous (诸夏侯曹传
(Cao Chun, who is a cousin of Cao Cao, led the Hu Bao Qi to besiege Nan Pi.)
(Cao Chun's calvary killed Yuan Tan, Yuan Shao's eldest son.)
(Cao Chun's calvary captured Ta Dun Shan Yu, leader of the Northern nomadic barbarians.)
(In his war on Jing Zhou, Cao Chun tracked Liu Bei at Chang Ban, took his two daughters and supplies, and captured his routed soldiers.)
They also featured in the war against Ma Chao: (in Cao Cao's biography, 武帝纪
(Cao Cao fixed a date to war with Ma Chao, first using light infantry to taunt them and fought for a long time, then sent the Hu Bao Qi to flank them, heavily defeated Ma's army)
The Hu Bao Qi then becomes the elite group that only trusted generals (from Cao's family) are allowed to lead:
(Cao Xiu and Cao Zhen have served or led the Hu Bao Qi. Both are important generals from the Cao family after Cao Cao's death)
These are all from the Record.
The ROTK barely mentions the Hu Bao Qi (and its leader Cao Chun) at all but recorded the story of Yu Jin punishing the rebellious Qing Zhou soldiers faithfully.
So there may be a case of Qing Zhou soldier in the game, but they really do not deserve the 50% bonus against other troops. If they are to be included as a UU (which there may be good reasons), they should be slightly weaker than the normal footman but significantly cheaper to represent the ease that Cao Cao got such a large army raised. When the techs progress more, they will definitely be replaced as the bulk of the army. And the Hu Bao Qi should be in if not already so.
No, apparently they have 100% bonus from an earlier post... which is clearly a huge exaggeration of their fight strength. I would advocate changing them to strength 4 (maybe starting with combat 1 so the penalty is not so huge) but a LOT cheaper.
Yeah, I noticed (but I never played Romance of the Three Kingdoms).
Just downloaded the new version.
Wow bruce you really can read classical Chinese that well.
I think the Qing Zhou army should be a glorified spearman with only 3 strength but 50% against melee, based on your research. They should be plentiful and cheap (warrior would be even better but unfortunately you already have copper/iron when playing as Cao Cao) but give him an advantage against Lu Bu's army (if not their cavalry).
Thanks AP. Well, doing that kind of research is partly my job
Let's hear from the team on what they think. I am equally eager to hear about their comments on Hu Bao Qi (tiger and panther calvary).
This is an awesome mod.
I just ran it for some time, but there are too many civs for my poor old computer to handle. Is there a scenario with fewer civs by any chance?
...after finally installing the thing it seems that the Sanguo maps and scenarios are not showing up on the menu. I attempted the earlier advice of selecting the maps straight from the folder but this brought up a 'which program would you like to use to open this file window.'
I definitley have the mod loaded and the icons have changed (like the Red Hare busy icon), yet the scenario and maps still do not show.
Well, it always struck me as odd why Yuan Shu never does well in my previous games. It happens to be because he's surrounded by enemies: Sun Ce hates him (his father being Yuan Shu's subordinate at one time), Liu Bei hates him (he's got the Rebellion holy city after all and has pretensions to being emperor), and he's in a war with the Prince of Chen. Cao Cao eventually kills him usually. Everybody is at least -14 with him because of "past events."
I reversed the tables. I declared war on the Liu scion that Sun Ce is warring with so that I have at least a temporary truce with him, I concentrated all my initial troops on capturing Xu Chang and "rescuing" the emperor, and also got Qiao. Lu Bu was a nonfactor and got eliminated by Cao Cao quickly. Cao Cao declared war on me no less than FIVE times (!) with stack after stack against the walls of Xu Chang, and even got my half-cousin Yuan Shao to send 2 stacks against me. I beat them all back and I'm about 20 moves from a cultural victory. Sun Ce, the rascal, declared war on me, but the stupid AI doesn't know how to land troops across the river, so eventually we made peace. Liu Biao and his vassal were essential allies against all my enemies; he even captured Luoyang after I made peace with Cao and vassalized him.
BTW, having universal suffrage (or the equivalent) to start with is suicide, since you have zero happiness. I switched to representation (or the equivalent in this mod) as quickly as I could.
An interesting fact: in RFC terms,
Xu Chang = Denver
Qiao = New Orleans
I haven't decided which is Chicago yet.
Great mod!! Been a fan of the ROTK games from Koei for a while so its nice to see this for Civ.
Played games as Lu Bu and Yuan Shu so far for a little bit of an extra challenge.
Found the trick to Lu Bu is to just stack all ur starting units in ur capital, and attack when Cao Cao reaches the gates with all the crossbows, then rush the unique unit, after that it's kind of too easy to go on a killing spree all over china.
Yuan Shu i had a lot of trouble at first but then found the trick is to do an early conquest of Sun Ce's capital to get the Dan Yang armies on your side, otherwise Cao Cao will step all over u with no access to iron or copper. Also like someone said, starting off with the emperor civic activated is horrible for happiness and its suicide to use it early game.
I also tried some games on the larger map, are there any plans to populate that with pre-set cities like the smaller one? Or have different scenarios at different timelines?
Supply wagons are a cool idea, i remember in the ROTK games it was always very important.
Can't wait until heroes are added in the next version, this is the most fun i've had in a civ mod in a long time, thank you
Did the pedia say so? I hope not. Yuan Shao is Yuan Shu's half-brother, not half-cousin (there isn't such a thing as a half-cousin, since whatever you define as a half-cousin may still be called a cousin in European culture, I think).
The two Yuans have the same father, with Yuan Shao being older but his mother is a concubine, and Yuan Shu is younger and son of the wife. That explains partly why they hate each other: Shao thinks he is older, but Shu thinks he has the proper bloodline. And of course, they are from one of the most powerful and influential families of the time.
Great mod, a lot of work behind clearly. One single remark: the last 1/3 of the game is just tooooooooooooo long and not intersting at all: fight a long and sure fight to reach the land domination limit: I had it palyin Yuan Shao (the yellow guy up north with the huge map) and had it again playing Sun Ce in the smaller map.
I'm maybe going to try it on a random map
Try Lu Bu and Yuan Shu, they are a challenge.
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