Yes, when capturing the city the Portuguese cultural control over surrounding tiles was reset before the Russian stack could advance into it. This caused Prussia to regain control of the tile it had been on and the stack was pushed away. This caused an inconsistency that led to the crash. I reordered when cultural control is reset to avoid that.Wasn't too bothered about that save, I got my Mughal strategy down and got the UHV in another game.
Do you know what the problem was specifically, about Russia capturing Krakow?
Rules do not exist in the real world and anyway who lets themselves be rolled over by an initial attack because otherwise you are not "truly" defending yourself? That's just schoolyard logic.
So, one can only use slaves in Americas and that wasn't a bug that I could not use them even in sub-saharan Africa.Slaves can only be used in the New World as settled specialists or for slave plantations. Your use for slaves is to sell them via diplomacy to other civs that control cities there.
Well, I am glad to know that my game is not bugged, but then again, isn't it weird that no one else can use slaves? I mean come on, the whole economies of the ancient empires of greeks and romans were built on slavery. Like the whole damn thing. They literally collapsed for that exact reason, because there were not enough conquest anymore, not enough new slaves and as a result a collapse of the old system and a gradual evolution into medieval serfdom system from the times of Diocletianus.
I understand, indoctrination, white guilt and everything
not the way some people in the high echelons of power want us to believe.
not the way (((some people in the high echelons of power))) want us to believe.
Well, instead of being sarcastic you could've just explained all of that to me in good faith. Which you still did, after being sarcastic. Anyway, I thank you for the explanation and it actually makes sense to me. After all sometimes all we (or any other dumbass for that matter, even if he's "one of those people") need is just some proper explanation provided in good faith. I would recommend doing that thing more often to anyone any day. Thanks.Yes, the trans-Atlantic slave trade is implemented with its own unique mechanic, but that is in addition to how in theory every civ can base its economy around slave labor via adopting the Slavery civic, which many civs that historically did so are already incentivized to do. I for one see two good reasons for that decision:
First, that it allows European civs to make heavy use of slave labor in their colonies while having an entirely different economic system back home, which is pretty much what historically happened.
Second, that it captures the uniquely racialized dynamic of Trans-Atlantic slavery, which more than any other system of slavery before or since had completely separated spheres of slave capture, slave use and slave-good consumption. Slavery in ancient Rome and medieval Arabia was a fact of daily life even (or especially so) in the most developed urban centers far away from the war-fronts that brought a steady stream of new slaves. You also had more fluidity between free men and slaves, there are plenty of occasions where free men became enslaved or slaves became freed over the course of their lives, and Turkish history especially is rife with stories of slave castes that in an ironic twist became ruler castes as well. Trans-Atlantic slavery on the other hand had very rigid rules for who could or could not become a slave, and most slaves were working on American plantations to produce luxury goods for far away European markets that had entirely different systems of social stratification in place.
Do you want to discuss geopolitics leading up to WW1 or do you wanna discuss defensive alliance rules? You're kind of jumping back and forth and I'm not sure which one is informing the other here.Okay, explain to me how your rules for DoC defensive alliances would handle the following situations:
As a courtesy to you, I will limit myself to pointing out that phrases such as "white guilt" and "people in the high echelons of power want us to believe X" are white nationalist talking points, conspiracy theories, and dog whistles. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were not aware of this and your use of this language was unintentional and coincidental, because white nationalism has no place in this community and I will not suffer people who subscribe to this vile ideology. Do not make me regret that decision.So, one can only use slaves in Americas and that wasn't a bug that I could not use them even in sub-saharan Africa.
Well, I am glad to know that my game is not bugged, but then again, isn't it weird that no one else can use slaves? I mean come on, the whole economies of the ancient empires of greeks and romans were built on slavery. Like the whole damn thing. They literally collapsed for that exact reason, because there were not enough conquest anymore, not enough new slaves and as a result a collapse of the old system and a gradual evolution into medieval serfdom system from the times of Diocletianus.
I mean, you find the transatlantic slave trade important enough a concept to implement it in the mod, yet ignore everything else. I understand, indoctrination, white guilt and everything, but damn, there were so much more in history. Medieval slave trade by turks and arabs brought us the word slave itself. It came from the ethnonym of slavic peoples. So many slavs were taken as slaves by turkic raiders and sold to arabs or byzantines, that the word itself became synonymous with servitude in every major language of the western europe including English, French, German, Spanish. There were so many slavic slaves in Islamic Spain that at times they created their own small rebel kingdoms there. How can we simply brush aside all of that? Why the only slavery that HAS TO BE implemented is the transatlantic one? I don't get it. And I do hope that in the future the concept would either disappear completely or will be extended in order to represent the history as it was, not the way some people in the high echelons of power want us to believe.
As I said to the previous guy who answered my question: instead of being sarcastic, in your case, I guess, instead of being aggressive and accussive, you could've done this in good faith (again, partially you did, I am thankful for that), in a much shorter message, capturing the most important aspects of the issue, -as the guy before you did -, without spending your precious time and nerves (and here I am not sarcastic a bit) on this whole "ah, you are an evil X go away from my forum" thing.Do you want to discuss geopolitics leading up to WW1 or do you wanna discuss defensive alliance rules? You're kind of jumping back and forth and I'm not sure which one is informing the other here.
As a courtesy to you, I will limit myself to pointing out that phrases such as "white guilt" and "people in the high echelons of power want us to believe X" are white nationalist talking points, conspiracy theories, and dog whistles. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were not aware of this and your use of this language was unintentional and coincidental, because white nationalism has no place in this community and I will not suffer people who subscribe to this vile ideology. Do not make me regret that decision.
I'll try to answer your questions assuming they were asked in good faith despite the above and your unnecessarily accusatory tone, because the answer may be of interest of everyone. My patience with you however is pretty thin already so take that into account in the future.
1. Slavery and slave trade are a general feature of human history and civilisation, found across many cultures and all periods of history at least since the agricultural revolution, including the modern day. Your accusation that I, or any reasonable person educated in history, is denying that is wrong.
2. That said, over the course of human history, despite the shared name, slavery has taken different forms in different societies and different historical periods. Also, other social institutions/norms/forms of production that do not share its name are functionally indistinguishable from at least some form of slavery.
3. The development of this mod is not just an exercise of historical representation, but also needs to capture any historical phenomenon in game mechanics that are historically appropriate, i.e. in upsides/downsides, overall effects on the world, incentives to use them etc. Those obviously have to be different for different forms of slavery that existed in history because they have been different in the real world as well.
4. The slavery civic already exists and every civilisation can adopt it since very early in the game. That is a very obvious fact that should already satisfy your desire to see this historical phenomenon represented. The civic allows you to capture enemy workers, and increases production on plantations and mines. This is a very abstract but not inaccurate representation of general features that were true for all forms of historical slavery, but especially those practiced in the classical mediterranean and the medieval Islamic world: the displacement of defeated populations for the benefit of the victor, and the use of a cheap source of labour to assist labour intensive economic sectors like mining and agriculture. Is it perfect? No, it does not capture all dimensions that slavery could have in a society, for example the use of slave military units etc. But neither does the Free Enterprise civic capture all possible effects of having a free market economic system and I do not see you complain about that.
5. Despite that, the transatlantic trade, of which the transatlantic slave trade is a crucial component, is one of the most transformative historical events for the entire world in recorded history. The historical effect of this event that spanned multiple centuries shaped almost every aspect of the history of the Americas, as well as the regions of Western and Central Africa that were affected by it. It is therefore totally reasonable to represent it in a separate mechanic, whose existence does not diminish or soften the existence of other forms of slavery represented in the civic. Mechanics like trading slaves through the diplomacy interface and engaging in chattel slavery are significantly different than what the civic would allow, hence they exist for this context, and cannot easily be extended to other regions of the world without eliding the important differences between them. African warlords did not capture slaves in their African hinterlands to send them to work their own plantations, they did so to sell them to Europeans and get access to European goods, especially weaponry. It is European colonists who used African slave labour, exclusively in the Americas, not in Europe itself. Hence the transatlantic slave trade has historically a clear regional dimension.
6. And now we are leaving the question of historical representation for a moment, and it bears repeating in many contexts, the absense of a feature in this mod is not an indication of a particular agenda. I am one person developing the mod, and there are lots of more important things to focus on. Hold me to account for the content I am adding, but it is not legitimate to infer any position from content that is not in the mod. In this case, many of the comparisons I made between the transatlantic slave trade and "other" slavery did not account for some of the historical events you mentioned. For example, Muslim slavery relying on slave raids in Christian Europe, e.g. by Moorish pirates or most importantly, Tatar raids in Slavic Europe. The same is true for African slaves traded by Muslims along the East African coast. Those things aren't really represented by any of the existing slavery mechanics, but neither would they be accurately represented by just extending the existing rules designed for the transatlantic slave trade to these civs and places. I would love to revisit this, and come up and implement rules and mechanics that represent it. But so far, it hasn't been a very high priority. Why? Because there is no Tatar civ that would benefit from it. Because there are no African civs along the East African coast that would interact with it. The existence of a Nigerian civ could cause me to rethink how slavery works because Benin opposed the slave trade but the Sokoto Caliphate made extensive use of slaves and if they were in the game I would suit the rules to capture that. But right now they aren't, so those things do not exist either, and that is the only reason why.
I am tired though. Tired because typing all this up cost me 30 minutes, even though most of this is actually pretty easy to infer if you have minimal critical thinking skills and as much historical knowledge as your bluster implies. Those are 30 minutes I could have been closer to actually implementing something like I just talked about, and to be honest I would have much preferred that.
In conclusion, if you actually are a white nationalist, I hope you read this and then eff right the eff off away from this forum so I don't have to read garbage like that anymore.
An apologist for white nationalism is a white nationalist. You do not have permission to play my mod, and I don't want to see you post here again.Even if I were a white nationalist, that alone wouldn't make me an evil person, no matter what you might think about it.
That is the trade-off. Do you want a game where massive world wars can break out with reasonable frequency, or do you want a game where the player can forge defensive pacts without the risk of tying themselves to an AI that suffers a psychotic break and declares war against every great power in Eurasia?I do worry that large world wars would stop happening, though.
I checked this save, and noticed there was a rounding error (Python rounds down instead of toward zero, leading to more negative values), which made a difference of -14 instead of -21 in your equal group. I think that's already significantly less punishing. I also included a cap that excludes extreme values from vassals.Save attached. There are a few reasons why this outcome doesn't make sense to me:
1. The asymmetry of it. To all the civs at war with me, due to their relative positions on the scoreboard, Japan is considered to be in the lStronger group, and therefore they're receiving zero foreign stability penalty for Japan's negative attitude toward them. In fact, they're probably getting a net stability bonus because their relative equals include their war allies and they're stacking up a bunch of mutual military struggle modifiers. We're all at war and our total power counting my vassals is fairly close, why is the stability impact so lopsided?
2. The potential for abuse of the way the lEqual group is defined. Now that I know that it will always be a certain number of civs, one easy solution to this problem, without changing the code, is to get one of my peaceful vassals into the group. In this example, all I'd need to do is gift Mexico some more cities and tech and they would easily have the 1400 score needed. Then their +100 attitude would cancel out all the warring civs, and in times of peace would probably keep me at stable all by itself. In other scenarios, I know that I can safely declare war on a civ in the lWeaker group because the stability penalty is capped, and to avoid declaring war on a civ in the lEqual group accordingly.
3. It makes playing this kind of world war scenario much less fun. This is partly my fault for not understanding ahead of time how this would work, but after all the war declarations my thinking was "how do we win this war without losing cities in North America, or having vassal Spain eliminated when my forces are all in southeast Asia and the Americans just teched to Battleships vs my Cruisers" not "how do I sign peace ASAP with everyone in the lEqual group and avoid capturing their cities so my stability doesn't suffer". I was having a lot of fun playing out the war turns and felt that I had just broken the Americans with an amphibious fork of Washington and Philadelphia, when I checked the stability adviser and realized that no, I was actually in danger of just collapsing and effectively losing the game.
It is perfectly fine to use a mechanic that is not by itself very realistic (defensive pacts that do not cancel) in order to reach an outcome that is realistic (large world wars between two allied blocs). In this view, defensive pacts are used to abstract the complex diplomatic games that can't properly be represented in the mod.
Patches for the game, the mod, or wine? I have 64-bit Wine 4.11 staging and recently updated to 1.16.1 of the mod. I was running into these errors on 1.15, and I think on 1.14, but I don't think I had them on either an older version of the mod or an older version of Wine (a 3.x release maybe?), or maybe a 32-bit version of Wine.I frequently got these crashes until one of the latest patches (only when playing on Linux, win7 and win10 worked fine); haven't encountered them since then.