Bug Reports and Technical Issues

[Leoreth]

Regardless, I have now extended the requirement to include each religion's historical area (I was under the assumption that this was already the case) which definitely includes Greece proper.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Just realised you did not attach a save for this one.

Here's one that actually caused a crash. A couple turns after the save.

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "BugEventManager", line 400, in _handleDefaultEvent
File "CvRFCEventHandler", line 603, in onBeginGameTurn
File "Stability", line 53, in checkTurn
File "Stability", line 581, in completeCollapse
File "Stability", line 536, in secedeCities
File "RFCUtils", line 1896, in killUnits
RuntimeError: unidentifiable C++ exception

 

[Nyayr]

Regardless, I have now extended the requirement to include each religion's historical area (I was under the assumption that this was already the case) which definitely includes Greece proper.

Nice, ^^ I reckon Persia or Egypt might develop islam before the Arabs, cause one game with the Arabs islam was already founded at their start

 

[Leoreth]

That would be indicative of overall tech speed issues I think.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Just started playing 1.15 (I thought I already had it but turns out it was 1.14, oops, so I downloaded the current version yesterday) and noticed a couple of things:

1. It looks like when a new civ pops up nearby and doesn't instantly declare war on the player, the two civs are instead instantly in a non-negotiated unbreakable ceasefire and the player can't declare war on them until the ceasefire expires. Playing as Greece I've seen this with Phoenicia, Persia and Rome. Usually I wait till the new civ penalty period is up before declaring war on a new civ (I hate having my units defect), but there are times when an early war is necessary and the defection penalty is acceptable. To reiterate, when a new civ appears and does not instantly declare war on the player, the player should always have the option of instantly declaring war on the new civ. There is no historical precedent for blocking this; quite the contrary, many new civilisations have had to fight for their existence against their will and from their very start.

2. Not so much a bug as a conceptual issue:

For their UHV the Greeks need to be first to discover Philosophy. Discovering Philosophy founds Buddhism. There may be a mechanism in the regionalisation to prevent Buddhism being founded ahistorically in e.g. Athens but as it happens I had already built Alexandreia tes India on the Indus (forward settling India, trying to nab Marble and Horses off them), so whee, that is now the Buddhist holy city. (Well, at least building the shrine there will earn me some money someday and the extra Culture from it will help keep Indian Culture off "my" stolen resources.) I didn't convert to Buddhism, but it's likely to spread to other cities via Persia.

Which brings me to the main issue: hopefully I can clean up the remaining classical wonders before the cities I want to build them in get a non-Pagan religion, because:

* Classical wonders require having no state religion and no religion in the city

I already had a minor religion problem due to Judaism spreading to some of my cities even before I captured Jerusalem. Fortunately so far it's only in cities that don't want to build any more classical wonders - for example I built the Hanging Gardens in Babylon before Judaism spread to Babylon, and that's OK as I don't want to build further classical wonders in Babylon. But I'm about to build the Great Library in Alexandreia. So far Alexandreia is free of religion but what happens if Judaism or Buddhism appear in that city while it's building the wonder? With the number of Wonders per city now limited by Culture (maximum two for Developing Culture), the Wonders UHV could get tight if key industrial cities get a religion too soon. That won't affect my current game as I've already built the four UHV Wonders, but I would like to get in as many Classical Wonders as possible.

Actually I just tested the religion-in-the-city rule and it allowed me to queue the Great Library in Babylon, which even has a Synagogue built already. So maybe I've misread the rule? Or maybe it was removed and the Changelog was not updated.

 

[1SDANi]

Just started playing 1.15 (I thought I already had it but turns out it was 1.14, oops, so I downloaded the current version yesterday) and noticed a couple of things:

1. It looks like when a new civ pops up nearby and doesn't instantly declare war on the player, the two civs are instead instantly in a non-negotiated unbreakable ceasefire and the player can't declare war on them until the ceasefire expires. Playing as Greece I've seen this with Phoenicia, Persia and Rome. Usually I wait till the new civ penalty period is up before declaring war on a new civ (I hate having my units defect), but there are times when an early war is necessary and the defection penalty is acceptable. To reiterate, when a new civ appears and does not instantly declare war on the player, the player should always have the option of instantly declaring war on the new civ. There is no historical precedent for blocking this; quite the contrary, many new civilisations have had to fight for their existence against their will and from their very start.

2. Not so much a bug as a conceptual issue:

For their UHV the Greeks need to be first to discover Philosophy. Discovering Philosophy founds Buddhism. There may be a mechanism in the regionalisation to prevent Buddhism being founded ahistorically in e.g. Athens but as it happens I had already built Alexandreia tes India on the Indus (forward settling India, trying to nab Marble and Horses off them), so whee, that is now the Buddhist holy city. (Well, at least building the shrine there will earn me some money someday and the extra Culture from it will help keep Indian Culture off "my" stolen resources.) I didn't convert to Buddhism, but it's likely to spread to other cities via Persia.

Which brings me to the main issue: hopefully I can clean up the remaining classical wonders before the cities I want to build them in get a non-Pagan religion, because:



I already had a minor religion problem due to Judaism spreading to some of my cities even before I captured Jerusalem. Fortunately so far it's only in cities that don't want to build any more classical wonders - for example I built the Hanging Gardens in Babylon before Judaism spread to Babylon, and that's OK as I don't want to build further classical wonders in Babylon. But I'm about to build the Great Library in Alexandreia. So far Alexandreia is free of religion but what happens if Judaism or Buddhism appear in that city while it's building the wonder? With the number of Wonders per city now limited by Culture (maximum two for Developing Culture), the Wonders UHV could get tight if key industrial cities get a religion too soon. That won't affect my current game as I've already built the four UHV Wonders, but I would like to get in as many Classical Wonders as possible.

Actually I just tested the religion-in-the-city rule and it allowed me to queue the Great Library in Babylon, which even has a Synagogue built already. So maybe I've misread the rule? Or maybe it was removed and the Changelog was not updated.

Judaism is an exception.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Judaism is an exception.

Ah, that would explain it. Potential issue remains for Greeks and Buddhism. However I sent my two free Bhikkus to the biggest Indian cities and so far Buddhism hasn't shown up outside India, so maybe it's not going to be a major issue. I've finished my Classical period and switched to Orthodoxy so it won't bother me again this game. Forward settling India turned out to be very expensive due to distance calculations and forgoing a cheaper city closer to home - Settlers also being particularly expensive for Greece under Republic. Perhaps once I build the shrine, the income from the Indian cities will offset that.

 

[1SDANi]

Ah, that would explain it. Potential issue remains for Greeks and Buddhism. However I sent my two free Bhikkus to the biggest Indian cities and so far Buddhism hasn't shown up outside India, so maybe it's not going to be a major issue. I've finished my Classical period and switched to Orthodoxy so it won't bother me again this game. Forward settling India turned out to be very expensive due to distance calculations and forgoing a cheaper city closer to home - Settlers also being particularly expensive for Greece under Republic. Perhaps once I build the shrine, the income from the Indian cities will offset that.

Religions have trouble spreading in areas they weren't historically present, so anywhere weast of Persia will be really hard for it to spread to, though not impossible.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

1. It looks like when a new civ pops up nearby and doesn't instantly declare war on the player, the two civs are instead instantly in a non-negotiated unbreakable ceasefire and the player can't declare war on them until the ceasefire expires. Playing as Greece I've seen this with Phoenicia, Persia and Rome. Usually I wait till the new civ penalty period is up before declaring war on a new civ (I hate having my units defect), but there are times when an early war is necessary and the defection penalty is acceptable. To reiterate, when a new civ appears and does not instantly declare war on the player, the player should always have the option of instantly declaring war on the new civ. There is no historical precedent for blocking this; quite the contrary, many new civilisations have had to fight for their existence against their will and from their very start.

IIRC, this was introduced to fix the problem of newly spawned civs always leaving their capital undefended on the first turn, allowing a sneaky human to completely wipe them out right as they spawn if they have a mounted unit nearby.

For their UHV the Greeks need to be first to discover Philosophy. Discovering Philosophy founds Buddhism. There may be a mechanism in the regionalisation to prevent Buddhism being founded ahistorically in e.g. Athens but as it happens I had already built Alexandreia tes India on the Indus (forward settling India, trying to nab Marble and Horses off them), so whee, that is now the Buddhist holy city.

Why do you ahistorically found Alexandreia tes India before Aristoteles had time to think about some stuff then?

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Why do you ahistorically found Alexandreia tes India before Aristoteles had time to think about some stuff then?

LOL. Well played. I did jump kinda prematurely outa the frog pond. But that's a Greek tradition. And until India founds Bhopal, it does make for easier Horse resources, which help against Persia. The distance calculation almost killed my economy; I went to 100% tax before clawing my way back.

 

[Leoreth]

Just to quickly supply Word of God although all questions are essentially answered:

1. It looks like when a new civ pops up nearby and doesn't instantly declare war on the player, the two civs are instead instantly in a non-negotiated unbreakable ceasefire and the player can't declare war on them until the ceasefire expires. Playing as Greece I've seen this with Phoenicia, Persia and Rome. Usually I wait till the new civ penalty period is up before declaring war on a new civ (I hate having my units defect), but there are times when an early war is necessary and the defection penalty is acceptable. To reiterate, when a new civ appears and does not instantly declare war on the player, the player should always have the option of instantly declaring war on the new civ. There is no historical precedent for blocking this; quite the contrary, many new civilisations have had to fight for their existence against their will and from their very start.

I agree that this is historically wrong, but it's necessary because too many exploits were possible that relied on killing a new civ quickly (e.g. before it has any flips) and abuse AI vulnerabilities such as leaving the capital defenseless. I know that it's annoying in particular if defections come into the mix, and I want to make this work better in the future so it's not as annoying. However the potential for abuse is too high to remove the initial armistice.

2. Not so much a bug as a conceptual issue:

For their UHV the Greeks need to be first to discover Philosophy. Discovering Philosophy founds Buddhism. There may be a mechanism in the regionalisation to prevent Buddhism being founded ahistorically in e.g. Athens but as it happens I had already built Alexandreia tes India on the Indus (forward settling India, trying to nab Marble and Horses off them), so whee, that is now the Buddhist holy city. (Well, at least building the shrine there will earn me some money someday and the extra Culture from it will help keep Indian Culture off "my" stolen resources.) I didn't convert to Buddhism, but it's likely to spread to other cities via Persia.

Is it a conceptual issue? You are right that religions have regions associated with them, and you need to have cities in these regions to found a religion when you discover the associated tech. This rule was implemented to avoid having to tailor the tech tree and everyone's research priorities so that they found the "right" religions in the "right" places. I think it's appropriate for a Greek city to become the Buddhist holy city if it is in a Buddhist region (like India).

Which brings me to the main issue: hopefully I can clean up the remaining classical wonders before the cities I want to build them in get a non-Pagan religion, because:

I already had a minor religion problem due to Judaism spreading to some of my cities even before I captured Jerusalem. Fortunately so far it's only in cities that don't want to build any more classical wonders - for example I built the Hanging Gardens in Babylon before Judaism spread to Babylon, and that's OK as I don't want to build further classical wonders in Babylon. But I'm about to build the Great Library in Alexandreia. So far Alexandreia is free of religion but what happens if Judaism or Buddhism appear in that city while it's building the wonder? With the number of Wonders per city now limited by Culture (maximum two for Developing Culture), the Wonders UHV could get tight if key industrial cities get a religion too soon. That won't affect my current game as I've already built the four UHV Wonders, but I would like to get in as many Classical Wonders as possible.

Actually I just tested the religion-in-the-city rule and it allowed me to queue the Great Library in Babylon, which even has a Synagogue built already. So maybe I've misread the rule? Or maybe it was removed and the Changelog was not updated.

Yes, Judaism does not prevent classical wonders. I am not sure if this rule is actually documented anywhere. Likewise, you probably do not have to worry much about Buddhism spreading to the Mediterranean. Religions will not spread to regions they are not historically associated with unless they are your state religion, and even then only at a slower rate.

 

[Leoreth]

Here's one that actually caused a crash. A couple turns after the save.

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "BugEventManager", line 400, in _handleDefaultEvent
File "CvRFCEventHandler", line 603, in onBeginGameTurn
File "Stability", line 53, in checkTurn
File "Stability", line 581, in completeCollapse
File "Stability", line 536, in secedeCities
File "RFCUtils", line 1896, in killUnits
RuntimeError: unidentifiable C++ exception

Went ten turns in without being able to reproduce the issue.

 

[Leoreth]

Seems auto saves overwrote it but I reproduced it with the same results this time with the equally anachronistic Johann Gossler

I cannot open this save, is this from 1.14?

 

[Autumn Leaf]

This rule was implemented to avoid having to tailor the tech tree and everyone's research priorities so that they found the "right" religions in the "right" places. I think it's appropriate for a Greek city to become the Buddhist holy city if it is in a Buddhist region (like India).

I actually liked the 1.14 innovation that detached some religions from the tech tree and based them in world events instead - founding Buddhism by building a Hindu temple, for example, IIRC. It was a little clumsy but somehow felt more realistic than "researching" a religion. Since the Indian UHV demanded a bunch of temples, it synergised well.

For example, you could bind Islam to the Arabian spawn or to a nest of conditions causing it to appear when the rechnological and cultural environment is right for it.

As it stands, with tech tree based religions I sometimes have to distort my research path to avoid e.g. founding Zoroastrism in Samarkand before Persia spawns, or having Islam pop up in a random ME city centuries too early. Although there was that one Greek game where I didn't switch away from Pantheon after founding Orthodoxy (I was chasing Wonders), with the result that Rome adopting Orthodoxy caused an instant Schism.

 

[Leoreth]

Maybe we can start a new thread to compile ideas for the founding conditions for all religions? I am not opposed to such a system, I just didn't like that it was basically half and half with some religions still founded from technologies and others through other means. I didn't have enough time/attention to create an entirely new rule set so I reverted to the tech based ruled.

 

[merijn_v1]

On the C++ runtime error, I got it very consistently on turn 3. (5 out of 5 of my test games) It's on a local branch however.

 

[Leoreth]

Which scenario? Can you run a debug DLL against it?

 

[merijn_v1]

3000 BC. I'll try the debug DLL.

EDIT:
I ran de debug DLL against it. I got the same message. Do I need to do something special with the debug DLL?

 

[1SDANi]

3000 BC. I'll try the debug DLL.

EDIT:
I ran de debug DLL against it. I got the same message. Do I need to do something special with the debug DLL?

Have you pressed control alt p in visual studio when the DLL attaching popup appears? This enables debuging.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, you need to attach Visual Studio to the BtS process so it can parse the stack trace produced by the error.