Magma_Dragoon
Reploid
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Or if you aren't but plan on letting any city grow in the future. It's amazing in civ5 how fast that +20 happiness can evaporate down to -1.
Building quests
- Thread starter ggmoyang
- Start date
Or if you aren't but plan on letting any city grow in the future. It's amazing in civ5 how fast that +20 happiness can evaporate down to -1.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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- Apr 3, 2004
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True (just one of my issues with the Clinic as a starting building, 1 extra health is totally useless Until you start getting to that limit.)
But city defense is the same... it is only useful if you ever might be not at peace with someone.
It is definitely poorly balanced... (because city defense is more rarely used especially by human players) But that could be solved by making it higher (say +20-+35 city strength)
Acken
Deity
Didn't someone say there were multiple levels of bonuses for extra health ?
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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Yes but there are cut off
10+ health gives you Intrigue defense and some other benefit
and there may be a benefit for 20+ health
Acken
Deity
What are the penalties beyond -10% culture/science for unhelath ?
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Other factions can gain more intrigue when your health falls below a certain point as well.
HecatesLover
Chieftain
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Magma, the health bonus is per clinic. So every clinic you build is worth 1 sci and 2 health. I am sure that adds up to an amount that is much more noticeable.
My pre-release theorycrafting on each of the bonuses:
Clinic: City hp / +1 Health. No contest. I personally will avoid negative health as much as I can.
Old Earth Relic: no maintenance / +1 Culture. Again no contest. It is not a hard decision to trade in energy for more culture which is basically what this is.
Trade Depot: +1 energy / +1 production. For a building that I am more than likely going to put in every city either bonus is just gravy but production is just simply stronger. Maybe if the energy were +3 it would be a tougher choice.
Laboratory: Extra expedition module on explorers / +1 Science. I know fallen satellites will happen all throughout the game but I doubt I'll need the extra modules all that often past the beginning and honestly I'll bet most of the expedition targets will be consumed by the time this building comes up. Plus there is a virtue which makes the extra expedition module here completely useless and Supremacy 1 is the same bonus. Either the virtue or Sup 1 is likely to be more than you need in that regard.
Recycler: +10% worker rate / +1 food, This one is a hard choice. It will likely come down to your planned strategy. If you are going down Prosperity and will be getting the bonus to Terrascapes the worker rate will pay off very well as they take a long time to build (15ish turns according to the stream). I am sure there are other improvements we will want to consider that take a while to build as well.
Pharmalab: +1 Science / +1 Health, Another one of the hard choices. Extra Science always pays off. However the first tier of negative health has a 10% national science penalty. If the health bonus can keep you out of the negative then it likely will be worth more than the +1 science.
Cytonursery: +5% production for military units / +1 production. Another tough choice. Being able to build/replace military units is a big deal when you need to. Otherwise general production is better. I think I will favor the straight production since it still applies to military.
Ultrasonic Fence: +1 to radius / trade convoys will not be attacked by alien units. I doubt I'll ever play a game where I don't want to international trade routes so trade convoy immunity all the way.
Vivarium: +1 Science / +1 Food. A hard choice. The food will probably push you over a threshold to get another population which is in itself 1 more science plus a worked square. However population is gained gradually and has other costs associated with it. If you are working to keep health under control the +1 science will likely be the better choice.
Network: No maintenance for the building / +1 Culture. Same as above for the Old Earth Relic. You are given the choice to trade energy for Culture. Really a no brainer in favor of Culture.
Thorium reactor: +2 Energy / +1 Production. A little bit better than the Trade Depot for the energy but still a little low to be competing with Production.
Repair Facility: +1 orbital coverage / ?. Cannot analyze unknowns.
Observatory: +2 defense for the city / +2 movement for naval units. If you are on a Pangaea map the city defense is more than likely the better choice. If you use naval units at all the movement is a huge freaking deal. Any bonus that competes with movement better be freaking amazing if it is to be considered.
Launch Complex: +1 orbital coverage / +10% production for orbital units. Unfortunately every satellite I've heard of has been a quick assembly. On the streams they always talk about how its just a 4 turn build and such. Maybe there are some high value sats that take a while to make but even then those are probably combat sats and we'll want to be able to deploy them extra far so they have a greater impact on combat.
Alien Preserve: +5 heal rate / +1 Energy and +1 Science. I need to know more about this one. Both bonuses are potentially amazing. Especially if the +5 heal rate is automatic without taking turns to heal or if it applies to all instances of healing like high Harmony in miasma.
(Xenofuel Plant??? Xenonursery???): one time boost of +450 / +5 Xenomass (probably per faction bonus). That is a big science bump. This decision is largely going to be decided by if you could use more Xenomass (you might just be swimming in it already) as Harmony and what time in the game you get this. 450 science could be an entire tech if you get this early enough.
Auto plant: +1 trade route limit / +1 Energy. No freaking contest. A single international trade route will get your more Energy than that and extra Science to boot.
Institute: +5% Science (in cities with an Institute) / a free tech. A more later/give me now choice. I would generally decide for the more later but free techs on the tech web can be extremely good. Using a freebie to pick up a high value bonus early can translate into a lot gained overall. See the MadDjinn stream for a great example.
Xeno Sanctuary: +2 Culture / +2 Food. This one just smacks me in the face with how hard of a choice it is. The food translates into +1 higher maximum population in every city with a Xeno Sanctuary. The Culture adds up to a lot of virtue advancement. I love both.
My pre-release theorycrafting on each of the bonuses:
Clinic: City hp / +1 Health. No contest. I personally will avoid negative health as much as I can.
Old Earth Relic: no maintenance / +1 Culture. Again no contest. It is not a hard decision to trade in energy for more culture which is basically what this is.
Trade Depot: +1 energy / +1 production. For a building that I am more than likely going to put in every city either bonus is just gravy but production is just simply stronger. Maybe if the energy were +3 it would be a tougher choice.
Laboratory: Extra expedition module on explorers / +1 Science. I know fallen satellites will happen all throughout the game but I doubt I'll need the extra modules all that often past the beginning and honestly I'll bet most of the expedition targets will be consumed by the time this building comes up. Plus there is a virtue which makes the extra expedition module here completely useless and Supremacy 1 is the same bonus. Either the virtue or Sup 1 is likely to be more than you need in that regard.
Recycler: +10% worker rate / +1 food, This one is a hard choice. It will likely come down to your planned strategy. If you are going down Prosperity and will be getting the bonus to Terrascapes the worker rate will pay off very well as they take a long time to build (15ish turns according to the stream). I am sure there are other improvements we will want to consider that take a while to build as well.
Pharmalab: +1 Science / +1 Health, Another one of the hard choices. Extra Science always pays off. However the first tier of negative health has a 10% national science penalty. If the health bonus can keep you out of the negative then it likely will be worth more than the +1 science.
Cytonursery: +5% production for military units / +1 production. Another tough choice. Being able to build/replace military units is a big deal when you need to. Otherwise general production is better. I think I will favor the straight production since it still applies to military.
Ultrasonic Fence: +1 to radius / trade convoys will not be attacked by alien units. I doubt I'll ever play a game where I don't want to international trade routes so trade convoy immunity all the way.
Vivarium: +1 Science / +1 Food. A hard choice. The food will probably push you over a threshold to get another population which is in itself 1 more science plus a worked square. However population is gained gradually and has other costs associated with it. If you are working to keep health under control the +1 science will likely be the better choice.
Network: No maintenance for the building / +1 Culture. Same as above for the Old Earth Relic. You are given the choice to trade energy for Culture. Really a no brainer in favor of Culture.
Thorium reactor: +2 Energy / +1 Production. A little bit better than the Trade Depot for the energy but still a little low to be competing with Production.
Repair Facility: +1 orbital coverage / ?. Cannot analyze unknowns.
Observatory: +2 defense for the city / +2 movement for naval units. If you are on a Pangaea map the city defense is more than likely the better choice. If you use naval units at all the movement is a huge freaking deal. Any bonus that competes with movement better be freaking amazing if it is to be considered.
Launch Complex: +1 orbital coverage / +10% production for orbital units. Unfortunately every satellite I've heard of has been a quick assembly. On the streams they always talk about how its just a 4 turn build and such. Maybe there are some high value sats that take a while to make but even then those are probably combat sats and we'll want to be able to deploy them extra far so they have a greater impact on combat.
Alien Preserve: +5 heal rate / +1 Energy and +1 Science. I need to know more about this one. Both bonuses are potentially amazing. Especially if the +5 heal rate is automatic without taking turns to heal or if it applies to all instances of healing like high Harmony in miasma.
(Xenofuel Plant??? Xenonursery???): one time boost of +450 / +5 Xenomass (probably per faction bonus). That is a big science bump. This decision is largely going to be decided by if you could use more Xenomass (you might just be swimming in it already) as Harmony and what time in the game you get this. 450 science could be an entire tech if you get this early enough.
Auto plant: +1 trade route limit / +1 Energy. No freaking contest. A single international trade route will get your more Energy than that and extra Science to boot.
Institute: +5% Science (in cities with an Institute) / a free tech. A more later/give me now choice. I would generally decide for the more later but free techs on the tech web can be extremely good. Using a freebie to pick up a high value bonus early can translate into a lot gained overall. See the MadDjinn stream for a great example.
Xeno Sanctuary: +2 Culture / +2 Food. This one just smacks me in the face with how hard of a choice it is. The food translates into +1 higher maximum population in every city with a Xeno Sanctuary. The Culture adds up to a lot of virtue advancement. I love both.
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
I did us all a favor...
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
I generally agree, HecatesLover! Good analysis.
The laboratory bonus for explorers might be viable if it restocks them out in the field. Not having to return 30 tiles with your 2 starting explorers is useful. Then again, due to upkeep and lost time, it might be better to just construct new ones and destroy the "empty" ones. Or use them to block the excavation site from access by the AI.
About the 10% worker rate from Recycler, I'm very curious about rounding. Many tiles don't need 10 turns to be improved, especially when you have another bonus already (e.g. from being PAC or the prosperity virtue). It also depends very much on whether all those stack multiplicative or additive.
About cyonursery, I tended to have 1-3 specialized military cities with high production. But apparently, there are no XP buildings anymore, so I guess only the buildings that give +production for units would give an incentive to centralize military production. But there aren't many of them, either (repair facility, anything else?), so we will probably build units anywhere, even in low-prod cities.
In summary, since 5% is always weaker than 1 prod if you don't have at least 20 prod, I'd say the straigh prod bonus is better (it affects everything).
Disagree on the vivarium. I will build it if I need food, especially in dry areas where there is none (desert bonus!). So this is the "bad soil" counter, and I would never want to dilute that role. This will also help cities to get started at all, so it is very powerful if rush-bought for midgame expansion.
On all others, I fully agree.
The laboratory bonus for explorers might be viable if it restocks them out in the field. Not having to return 30 tiles with your 2 starting explorers is useful. Then again, due to upkeep and lost time, it might be better to just construct new ones and destroy the "empty" ones. Or use them to block the excavation site from access by the AI.
About the 10% worker rate from Recycler, I'm very curious about rounding. Many tiles don't need 10 turns to be improved, especially when you have another bonus already (e.g. from being PAC or the prosperity virtue). It also depends very much on whether all those stack multiplicative or additive.
About cyonursery, I tended to have 1-3 specialized military cities with high production. But apparently, there are no XP buildings anymore, so I guess only the buildings that give +production for units would give an incentive to centralize military production. But there aren't many of them, either (repair facility, anything else?), so we will probably build units anywhere, even in low-prod cities.
In summary, since 5% is always weaker than 1 prod if you don't have at least 20 prod, I'd say the straigh prod bonus is better (it affects everything).
Disagree on the vivarium. I will build it if I need food, especially in dry areas where there is none (desert bonus!). So this is the "bad soil" counter, and I would never want to dilute that role. This will also help cities to get started at all, so it is very powerful if rush-bought for midgame expansion.
On all others, I fully agree.
HecatesLover
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2014
- Messages
- 82
On the Lab. The other expedition bonuses are added to explorers in the field so I think it is safe to assume this one does too. My problem comes from the fact that Supremacy 1 gives the exact same bonus and a virtue that is available on the 3rd selection gives even better. I'd rather go for Sup 1 or the virtue if I want extra expedition modules than to give up effectively a 50% increase in the output of a science building.
Good catch on the Vivarium. I forgot that it was a food building meant for desert cities. I agree the fact that you are making a Vivarium for the purpose of pumping food does give more weight to the food option.
Good catch on the Vivarium. I forgot that it was a food building meant for desert cities. I agree the fact that you are making a Vivarium for the purpose of pumping food does give more weight to the food option.
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
You're right. I'll probably take the bonus science almost every time. Except maybe the extra expedition is exactly what I need at the very moment the quest pops up.
Then again, you give up a whole lot of science for those modules... Yeah, I'll probably take science 98% of the time.
Inhalaattori
Emperor
From the GameSpot LP (one of the few good ones):
Observatory: +2for city/+2
for naval units
Does this mean you get +2 movement for all naval units globally from now on? Or does it mean that ships build in cities with observatory get +2 movement.
+2 city strength is nothing. I dont understand why they are making lot of these quest rewards so unbalanced. They really should change most of them.
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
Those might just be placeholders due to the preliminary character of the footage we've seen. They still have 3 weeks for finetuning. The preview versions are in a very good shape for the time being (very few real bugs so far, looks better than many titles on release day). And balancing is very difficult when only a handful of people play the game, they can never unveil as much as a community of many thousand skilled players (+ many many casuals).
Let us not forget the above facts. This is far from the being final product, and we know way more details than most publishers would reveal before release.
Don't get me wrong, this thread is a good one and might even help the devs, but there is no reason to fear. They supported and patched civ 4+5 commendably, they will get this one balanced as well. It would however be unrealistic to not allow them a patch or two after release for the details.
Inhalaattori
Emperor
But the thing is that some of these are so clearly unbalanced that there is no reason to even test them. Like Auto plant or Old Earth Relic bonus. Energy is extremely easy to get when generators give you +2 energy from the start. Why would you ever choose the +1 energy option. They both should be at least +2 energy.
SupremacyKing
Prince
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- Jun 19, 2014
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- 564
Personally, I think the +1 radius is great. It means that your fences would have a total radius of 3 which means your entire territory could be alien free if you build your cities within 6 tiles of each other and build fences in them. Having my entire empire be alien free automatically would be pretty great!
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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- Apr 3, 2004
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- 12,418
Easier would be bringing generators down to 1 energy (get it into balance with the other resources.)
aguliondew
Prince
I think some are underestimating how strong a energy focus civ looks like in BE. Negative health hit science and culture first, then production, and finally growth/intrigue. Energy does not decrease from health. With the industry virtue investment you will gain double the amount of energy you normally would gain every ~70. With the final bonus in industry the time it takes ~35turns to do that.
At first I was thinking a energy based civ would be the same as it was in civ 5. Then I saw investment and though why would their be a 100 energy cap on that? Then I came to realize how quickly you can get large sums of energy from trade/espionage every few turns. So investment would be OP without the cap.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13436655&postcount=115
At first I was thinking a energy based civ would be the same as it was in civ 5. Then I saw investment and though why would their be a 100 energy cap on that? Then I came to realize how quickly you can get large sums of energy from trade/espionage every few turns. So investment would be OP without the cap.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13436655&postcount=115
Gamewizard
Emperor
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2011
- Messages
- 1,234
ICS generator and foreign trade route spam FTW! Gonna be like Scrooge McDuck, swimming in my energy vault, and throwing balls of energy at anything that tries to touch me!
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