But think of the children!

[Yeekim]

*laughs while attending a free Masters program*

 

[rah]

State bought or Company bought? (or Merit)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's hard to size up a person in a 30 minute interview. I always thought a few steps down the line when hiring. The training an mentoring invested is not trivial. So without additional evidence, a degree (appropriate) was always considered a tie breaker.

It's hard to size someone up in 30 minutes, but I'm not convinced most degrees convey significantly more information.

For those that do, if we're talking about programming, accounting, economics, finance, anything in engineering, etc then the degree conveys at least basic knowledge of these respective topics, so yes in present day you'd prioritize having over not having unless convinced otherwise by something else.

Notably these fields can largely prove knowledge via tests anyway, which makes traditional 4 years for them questionable.

 

[rah]

It's hard to size someone up in 30 minutes, but I'm not convinced most degrees convey significantly more information.

No argument there. It's just another data point. And tests are just another data point but aren't always definitive. I've seen people test well that were well deficient in other areas.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

No argument there. It's just another data point. And tests are just another data point but aren't always definitive. I've seen people test well that were well deficient in other areas.

Sure, but if someone can write a program for you or solve an engineering problem you've a (IMO superior) substitute for a degree. Doesn't work as nicely for all vocations, but certainly for those it has less doubt than the degree.

 

[rah]

Sometimes. But not always. I've hired over a 100 analysts/devs/programmers/operators. No two have ever been the same.
I was hiring a SAS programmer once so the programming test was in SAS. The guy I ended up hiring (from another game site) had never programmed in the language so scored pretty bad. (and he didn't have a degree). I knew he was proficient in another language. Turned out to be the smartest guy I ever hired. But if I hadn't know about his other skills prior, I would have never hired him. Especially based on how he scored on the test.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sometimes. But not always. I've hired over a 100 analysts/devs/programmers/operators. No two have ever been the same.
I was hiring a SAS programmer once so the programming test was in SAS. The guy I ended up hiring (from another game site) had never programmed in the language so scored pretty bad. (and he didn't have a degree). I knew he was proficient in another language. Turned out to be the smartest guy I ever hired. But if I hadn't know about his other skills prior, I would have never hired him. Especially based on how he scored on the test.

I'm advocating for more efficient substitutes for college degrees per the topic of this thread, not suggesting to throw out other useful means of evaluation!

 

[rah]

College degrees are just one means of evaluation. If it's a requirement and lacking, but you still like the candidate enough, I've always been able to convince HR to look the other way on that one. (across 5 different companies)
No one method or even multiple methods is perfect. The company that is hiring is within it's right to set whatever requirements it feels necessary. (not including those categories legally protected of course)

And most of the time it comes down to the personal preferences of the hiring manager. Some put more weight in a degree than others.

I'll admit to using it as a tie breaker a few times, lacking more concrete information.

 

[Ferocitus]

*laughs while attending a free Masters program*

Well done, Balti vend!
Down here I got a tax-free scholarship for a PhD without completing under-grad work.
I hope the co-mingling of our tears for the USA help them see that there are alternatives to crippling student debt.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can get merit scholarships in the USA too, or at least you could when I was in college.

 

[Yeekim]

Well done, Balti vend!
Down here I got a tax-free scholarship for a PhD without completing under-grad work.
I hope the co-mingling of our tears for the USA help them see that there are alternatives to crippling student debt.

Ačiū!

You can get merit scholarships in the USA too, or at least you could when I was in college.

That's no merit scholarship though - although I do qualify for a small stipend based on grades.
Higher education is free in Estonia since 2012. Thought I'll take advantage while it lasts, even though it's pretty brutal while working full time.
I suspect my family is starting to forget what I look like.

 

[innonimatu]

If a company is hiring an entry level position, that might be exactly what it is. "ENTRY" meaning it's the intention to nurture that person along the path to greater things.

You mean most companies there still provide career options? Because on my side of the Atlantic that seems almost extinguished, and people only "rise" by moving jobs. Shortsighted management... and I have the impression that the idea was imported together with the "business schools" plaguing universities.

Speaking of education, in my country we've gotten to the point where classes are often given in english by non-fluent teachers who privately complain that the quality of teaching is degrading, just so the courses can be peddled to foreigners. University as a business. Or the business school taking over (ideologically) the university. The locals (who actually fund these universities and are supposed to be served by them) be damned. Tough because many no longer believe they have a future in the country those are probably pleased with such an "internationalized" teaching, "making them ready for an international career" or whatever.
And the boni wonder why nationalism is rising in Europe among a sizable portion of the population. ... it's a defense reaction against the crap we're having dumped on us by out stupid rulers.

Student loans also arrived here about a decade ago, but fortunately the bank's push for that coincided with the financial crisis and people (temporarily!) got a salutary aversion to debt and have been avoiding them.

It seems to me that the problem in the US is that universities have become so used to charging huge tuition fees that changing the system will threaten the incomes of a lot of very influential people. The academia is influential. The loans feed ever-increasing university budgets, and those budgets increase the demand for more loans...

 

[Estebonrober]

You mean most companies there still provide career options? Because on my side of the Atlantic that seems almost extinguished, and people only "rise" by moving jobs. Shortsighted management... and I have the impression that the idea was imported together with the "business schools" plaguing universities.

Speaking of education, in my country we've gotten to the point where classes are often given in english by non-fluent teachers who privately complain that the quality of teaching is degrading, just so the courses can be peddled to foreigners. University as a business. Or the business school taking over (ideologically) the university. The locals (who actually fund these universities and are supposed to be served by them) be damned. Tough because many no longer believe they have a future in the country those are probably pleased with such an "internationalized" teaching, "making them ready for an international career" or whatever.
And the boni wonder why nationalism is rising in Europe among a sizable portion of the population. ... it's a defense reaction against the crap we're having dumped on us by out stupid rulers.

Student loans also arrived here about a decade ago, but fortunately the bank's push for that coincided with the financial crisis and people (temporarily!) got a salutary aversion to debt and have been avoiding them.

It seems to me that the problem in the US is that universities have become so used to charging huge tuition fees that changing the system will threaten the incomes of a lot of very influential people. The academia is influential. The loans feed ever-increasing university budgets, and those budgets increase the demand for more loans...

I don't agree with your populism often because I think its largely just reactionary in nature and not conducive to solving the problems, but I think you got some of the problems pinned down here. Some companies still provide career paths and options, but they are getting more rare all the time. Community schools still put together good programs that are applied science programs that are immediately useful in the associated field @TheMeInTeam. Usually through an internship or clinical setting for example. This would be where I would start. I think you can sell the American public on making these free for everyone immediately.

 

[rah]

You mean most companies there still provide career options?

Most of the ones I've worked at did. The cost of training is expensive. But today's workers would rather jump around to try to get more decent increases faster. While that works for awhile, the pattern starts to look like a negative and then you'd better be really really good, or it could haunt you.
I have never discouraged someone from moving on to more money, but I usually offer the advice to them to not do it too much.

 

[Ferocitus]

Community schools still put together good programs that are applied science programs that are immediately useful in the associated field.

Without independent data, from many sources collected over several years, the most you can really assert is that...
Some community schools still put together good programs that are applied science programs that might be immediately useful in some associated field.

Unsupported claims can be summarily dismissed.

 

[Lexicus]

You mean most companies there still provide career options? Because on my side of the Atlantic that seems almost extinguished, and people only "rise" by moving jobs.

This is mostly true over here as well. If it isn't true in rah's company then his is an exception, not the rule.

But today's workers would rather jump around to try to get more decent increases faster.

Yeah, see, no, today's workers are responding sensibly to the fact that hardly any employer offers a career path. I mean, forget advancement, most jobs these days aren't even stable or secure.

 

[rah]

Some of today's youths are not patient enough to take advantage of offers of a career path. It doesn't mean they don't exist..
But will concede that INITIALLY job hopping will produce higher salaries more quickly. Still not convinced of the long term effect. We'll see how that plays out down the road. But yes, cradle to grave is not the standard anymore.

 

[Lexicus]

Some of today's youths are not patient enough to take advantage of offers of a career path. It doesn't mean they don't exist..
But will concede that INITIALLY job hopping will produce higher salaries more quickly. Still not convinced of the long term effect. We'll see how that plays out down the road. But yes, cradle to grave is not the standard anymore.

I'm not claiming that they don't exist, only that they are extremely rare. You're trying to blame "kids these days" for not being patient enough but that is complete nonsense, the reality is that people go from employer to employer now because the nature of work has changed from when you were young.

 

[rah]

No, I also blame the corporations. Every corporation tries to keep the best and the brightest. To not do so is just bad business. But corporations have stopped trying to keep the not so bright. Which unfortunately is most of the people. Especially as they get older. They just don't advertise it.
But I've seen some younger ones that jumped around and finally hit a ceiling, where if they had stayed in fewer places they might have cracked that ceiling.
Which is better in the long term, I'm just not sure. (heck I haven't worked for every company and can't know everything) But most companies will try to make long term plans for the best. If you're one of the best, patience might serve you better.

 

[Lexicus]

If you're one of the best, patience might serve you better.

Hey I have an idea, let me try to write my landlord a rent check for 1200 patiences, I'm sure he'll take those instead of dollars.