Hmm... my relatives were under occupation and yes, Italians and Germans looked like representatives of two different biological species. As a result, Italian officers are walking through the village, knocking on the windows and warning "the Germans are coming!".
It is not surprising that even Italian fascists and Nazis are really two CATASTROPHICALLY big differences, but the difference is still in the degree of radicalism. Mussolini passed segregation laws not only for blacks, but also for Arabs. And back in 1937, when Italy was not a lapdog of the Third Reich. In other words, the same basic principles (the primacy of the nation) generate similar trends. At the same time, the policy gets tougher over time – the Third Reich also seemed quite herbivorous at first.

Leninism is a direct continuation of international Marxism a strand of international communism that was a serious force in world politics well before WW1. Lenin didn't really invent anything new,


In reality, Lenin literally turned the basic principles of social democracy upside down. The Marxists were fixated on the destruction of the "bureaucratic-military state machine." The result of the Bolshevik coup turned out to be diametrically opposite - because after the first attempts it turned out that the Marxist model of the economy and the state does not work from the word "at all".
It's only when Stalin came to power that the Soviet Union started changing into its own thing.

It was Stalin who just gave Lenin's bureaucratic-police state complete forms.
 
Hmm... my relatives were under occupation and yes, Italians and Germans looked like representatives of two different biological species. As a result, Italian officers are walking through the village, knocking on the windows and warning "the Germans are coming!".
It is not surprising that even Italian fascists and Nazis are really two CATASTROPHICALLY big differences, but the difference is still in the degree of radicalism. Mussolini passed segregation laws not only for blacks, but also for Arabs. And back in 1937, when Italy was not a lapdog of the Third Reich. In other words, the same basic principles (the primacy of the nation) generate similar trends. At the same time, the policy gets tougher over time – the Third Reich also seemed quite herbivorous at first.
The thing to remember is that when people talk about Fascism not being racist it's a statement relative to the baseline of the time. And the baseline of human behavior in general and western civilization in particular at that time is still very racist to our modern eye. This was a time when it was acceptable for progressive western democracies to both firmly espouse the ideals of liberty, fraternity and equality whilst at the same time maintaining massive colonial empires with a permanently oppressed nonwhite majority underclass in them. And this was not seen by anyone as a contradiction because to the than current mind it simply was not one.

In reality, Lenin literally turned the basic principles of social democracy upside down. The Marxists were fixated on the destruction of the "bureaucratic-military state machine." The result of the Bolshevik coup turned out to be diametrically opposite - because after the first attempts it turned out that the Marxist model of the economy and the state does not work from the word "at all".
Another example of how reality shatters beautiful theories with through application of ugly facts. The whole Russian Civil war is a fascinating era of political and social experimentation containing everything from anarchist socialism and anarchist ultranationalism to well just about everything else. One could spend a lifetime studding it and not get the whole picture. At least that is my impression of it based on my limited understanding.

It was Stalin who just gave Lenin's bureaucratic-police state complete forms.
I basically feel that the Stalin vs Lenin dynamic is much like that between Cesar and Augustus. Cesar brought down the republic but it was Augustus who solidified and established the empire to come afterward. Equally Lenin brought down the monarchy and established something, but without Stalin to solidify and fully cement it things could have gone in any number of different ways from that point on.

Plus I think that from a gameplay perspective it makes more sense to put Socialism and Liberalism, the two foundational ideology of mid-century Europe early rather than late on the research tree so that they have time to spread.
 
They are on my list of things to look at in depth once I can work seriously on this again rather than just make the occasional discussion post.
Okay.

Reading your conversation about ideologies, I had 2 more ideas as religion replacements:
Well I had very similar ideas. Renaming it to Ideologies, like in Final Frontier and some mechanics similar to Dune Wars.

1) Liberalism
Found by a starting tech that is available to all western civs.
Shrine: Statue of Liberty

2) Marxism
Found by starting tech available to Soviets and China.
Shrine: Lenin Mausoleum

3) Nationalism
I'd prefer this name over Fascism. Broader and less "dark". Fund in the later part of the 1st era
No shrine. If possible there should be even no holy city.

4) Divine Destiny
Japan funds it automatically.
Shrine: Imperial Palace

5) Obedience
" Yuri's will is my will. I... must... obey..."
Obviously Yuri auto funds it.
Shrine: Yuri's HQ

6) Globalism
Basically GDI propaganda but broader, not so restricting and we can use GDI name for the civ.
Starts spreading in the 3rd era but no holy city and shrine at that point. Once GDI is formed as a civ, its capital becomes the "holy city" and can build the shrine too.

7) Tiberian Paradise (or Technology of Peace)
Basically Nod propaganda but again, it is broader. Starts spreading with tiberium itself.
Shrine: Temple Prime in Nod capital.
8) Anarchism
Starts spreading in the 1st era but no funding tech or holy city. Cities with it could have a chance to rebel and become barbarian (similar to revolutions).

9) ???
Something for the mutants maybe. Just a quick idea.
 
Sorry for the delay, it's my birthday:D

The thing to remember is that when people talk about Fascism not being racist it's a statement relative to the baseline of the time. And the baseline of human behavior in general and western civilization in particular at that time is still very racist to our modern eye. This was a time when it was acceptable for progressive western democracies to both firmly espouse the ideals of liberty, fraternity and equality whilst at the same time maintaining massive colonial empires with a permanently oppressed nonwhite majority underclass in them. And this was not seen by anyone as a contradiction because to the than current mind it simply was not one.

The fact is that the policy of racial segregation was, in principle, atypical for Catholics. "Democratic Catholics"/the French, without batting an eye, gave full citizenship to the entire population of the West Indies back in the 1830s. Since the 1870s, Algerians could claim French citizenship, and then almost all residents of the new colonies received this right with a certain time interval.
"Decree No. 137 of the Government of National Defense of October 24, 1870, prepared by the Minister of Justice Adolphe Cremier, regulating the issue of naturalization of Algerian residents. According to him, an Algerian Muslim could become a full-fledged French citizen only if, upon reaching the age of 21 (in the absence of a criminal past), he wrote to the head of the Arab bureau of his district with a statement that he was under the jurisdiction not of local traditional law, but of French civil law. This provision was included in the "Code de l'endizhen" adopted on June 28, 1881, describing the system of colonial administration in Algeria, India and Indochina. According to the Code, the entire local population of the colonies was divided into two large categories: evolution and originals. The former were full citizens of France, the latter were non–assimilated residents of the colonies. To move from one category to another, it was necessary to be able to read and write in French, and to come under the jurisdiction of French civil law"..
In Portugal, the same scheme has been in effect since 1910.
After the First World War, the British began to give up the positions of the white masters.
That is, all this is no longer fashionable.

The whole Russian Civil war is a fascinating era of political and social experimentation containing everything from anarchist socialism and anarchist ultranationalism to well just about everything else. One could spend a lifetime studding it and not get the whole picture.

Yes, I get carried away too:)

At the same time, the nuance is that
a) the Leninists were actually already quite marginal within the framework of the second International, as discussed below.
b) following the results of the revolution, they themselves perfectly realized their break with the rest of the socialists, creating the 3rd International.
I basically feel that the Stalin vs Lenin dynamic is much like that between Cesar and Augustus.

In general, you are right, but… The nuance is that the Soviet model acquired its most radical forms already during the Civil War (military communism). At the same time, the preservation of small-peasant land use was considered as an annoying compromise, and in 1920-21 the Bolsheviks already tried to carry out quasi-collectivization in the Crimea with the usual result in the form of famine on the peninsula. The NEP was seen as a rollback. Thus, Stalin simply returned to the uncompromising model (however, the last remnants of "entrepreneurship" were already finished off under Khrushchev). That is, the Soviet "principate" was already created by "Caesar", August simply had more opportunities to consistently design the model.

Plus I think that from a gameplay perspective it makes more sense to put Socialism and Liberalism, the two foundational ideology of mid-century Europe early rather than late on the research tree so that they have time to spread.

The fact is that it won't be too historical. The revolutionary Marxists were the guiding and guiding force in the left movement only from their own point of view. In fact, the First International was totally dominated by anarchists (63% against 31% among Marxists). In the second International, which broke away from the anarchist mainstream, reformists prevailed even before the First World War. He, in principle, has not gone anywhere – this is the Social International, with the Labor Party, etc. In general, supposedly mainstream Soviet-style Marxism is actually a "late religion". The latter are disliked by the mechanics of the vanilla game, but this does not prevent them from being extremely successful in reality. It seems to me that it's better to just remove this glitch. It is not difficult (high speed of distribution + at times cheaper missionaries).
 
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Sorry for the delay, it's my birthday:D



The fact is that the policy of racial segregation was, in principle, atypical for Catholics. "Democratic Catholics"/the French, without batting an eye, gave full citizenship to the entire population of the West Indies back in the 1830s. Since the 1870s, Algerians could claim French citizenship, and then almost all residents of the new colonies received this right with a certain time interval.
"Decree No. 137 of the Government of National Defense of October 24, 1870, prepared by the Minister of Justice Adolphe Cremier, regulating the issue of naturalization of Algerian residents. According to him, an Algerian Muslim could become a full-fledged French citizen only if, upon reaching the age of 21 (in the absence of a criminal past), he wrote to the head of the Arab bureau of his district with a statement that he was under the jurisdiction not of local traditional law, but of French civil law. This provision was included in the "Code de l'endizhen" adopted on June 28, 1881, describing the system of colonial administration in Algeria, India and Indochina. According to the Code, the entire local population of the colonies was divided into two large categories: evolution and originals. The former were full citizens of France, the latter were non–assimilated residents of the colonies. To move from one category to another, it was necessary to be able to read and write in French, and to come under the jurisdiction of French civil law"..
In Portugal, the same scheme has been in effect since 1910.
After the First World War, the British began to give up the positions of the white masters.
That is, all this is no longer fashionable.
I did not know that about the French. Shows how much I paid attention in history class I guess. As for the British sure, they had some pretense of a commonwealth but realistically Indians and especially Africans were newer considered as equal up until the very end.

Yes, I get carried away too:)
Same here. On the plus side it is what makes this a fun distraction I can do on the quick without the mass effort I need to actually work on the mod.

In general, you are right, but… The nuance is that the Soviet model acquired its most radical forms already during the Civil War (military communism). At the same time, the preservation of small-peasant land use was considered as an annoying compromise, and in 1920-21 the Bolsheviks already tried to carry out quasi-collectivization in the Crimea with the usual result in the form of famine on the peninsula. The NEP was seen as a rollback. Thus, Stalin simply returned to the uncompromising model (however, the last remnants of "entrepreneurship" were already finished off under Khrushchev). That is, the Soviet "principate" was already created by "Caesar", August simply had more opportunities to consistently design the model.
And crucially to remain in power for decades as a stabilizing factor which is primarily what I was referring to with that comparison. Imagine if either of the two (Augustus or Stalin) had died within a decade of taking power as Lenin had. Would the system have remained as they put it together or would it have collapsed or changed as individuals with very different interpretations of the same base idea (say Trotsky) came into power.

The fact is that it won't be too historical. The revolutionary Marxists were the guiding and guiding force in the left movement only from their own point of view. In fact, the First International was totally dominated by anarchists (63% against 31% among Marxists). In the second International, which broke away from the anarchist mainstream, reformists prevailed even before the First World War. He, in principle, has not gone anywhere – this is the Social International, with the Labor Party, etc. In general, supposedly mainstream Soviet-style Marxism is actually a "late religion". The latter are disliked by the mechanics of the vanilla game, but this does not prevent them from being extremely successful in reality. It seems to me that it's better to just remove this glitch. It is not difficult (high speed of distribution + at times cheaper missionaries).
It's late game in the regular CIV4 timeline. But our timeline here is from the 1900's to just about the 2030's. And in that respect the Russian Revolution of 1917 is right in the middle of the first quarter. Or roughly half way into era 2 / 6 timeline vise.
 
Starts spreading in the 1st era but no funding tech or holy city. Cities with it could have a chance to rebel and become barbarian (similar to revolutions).
The idea is very interesting. But,
1. as far as I understand, it requires serious modding
2. Does not really correspond to historical nuances
a) technically anarchist ideas are older. However, modern anarchism really "starts" in the 1840s.
b) the "barbarian" anarchists were extremely noticeable, but they were still a minority in the anarchist "international"
c) anarchist radicals are not only Makhno, but also Spain of the 1930s and ... at one time they controlled no less territory, there than the Marxists. That is, if they are "barbarians", then they are very advanced. It is necessary to give these citizens fat bonuses. + Reflect their specific impact on stability until victory. For they committed terrorist attacks in the same Catalonia on an industrial scale, and for decades.
 
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We should all do well to keep in mind that the mod still should strive to simulate the Command and Conquer world. So we shouldn't stray that far from that.
Also note that in terms of ideologies and how they map to the real world we have to look at both civics and religions. As in using vanilla civics Stalinism is Communism (religion) + State Property + Police State.
 
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I did not know that about the French. Shows how much I paid attention in history class I guess.

No, they just don't tell such details in history lessons. I was just interested in the topic – there's a huge pile of interesting stuff there.

And crucially to remain in power for decades as a stabilizing factor which is primarily what I was referring to with that comparison. Imagine if either of the two (Augustus or Stalin) had died within a decade of taking power as Lenin had. Would the system have remained as they put it together or would it have collapsed or changed as individuals with very different interpretations of the same base idea (say Trotsky) came into power.

In principle, the external situation pushed the Bolsheviks to a mobilization scenario with a rigid vertical of power. Stalin's own views evolved greatly and his victory was largely predetermined by the fact that he was followed by a core of managers who were objectively interested in expanding their powers. But the objective prerequisites are very far from everything, the role of the individual was nevertheless huge, you are right.

It's late game in the regular CIV4 timeline. But our timeline here is from the 1900's to just about the 2030's. And in that respect the Russian Revolution of 1917 is right in the middle of the first quarter. Or roughly half way into era 2 / 6 timeline vise.

Yes, but the original game is usually dominated by the first three religions. Bolshevism finds itself in the role of Confucianism (or Taoism – it is technically achievable quite early). Of course, these are not classical late religions, but… Naturally, nothing prevents the use of "undifferentiated" communism that arises at the beginning of the game (especially since an alternative timeline is present by default, maybe Einstein didn't like Bakunin either).
The nuance is that you also need to distribute a NOD and a competitor. That is, the spread of religions in any case will have to be modified, it seems to me. And by applying a modification to revolutionary Marxism, you can get a more historical version.
 
No, they just don't tell such details in history lessons. I was just interested in the topic – there's a huge pile of interesting stuff there.
There is that too. But there is also the fact that school was like 20 years ago and I genuinely didn't care about these things or really anything they may or may not have tried to teach me back then.

Yes, but the original game is usually dominated by the first three religions. Bolshevism finds itself in the role of Confucianism (or Taoism – it is technically achievable quite early). Of course, these are not classical late religions, but… Naturally, nothing prevents the use of "undifferentiated" communism that arises at the beginning of the game (especially since an alternative timeline is present by default, maybe Einstein didn't like Bakunin either).
In terms of ideologies and how they map to the real world we have to look at both civics and religions. As in using vanilla civics Stalinism is Communism (religion) + State Property + Police State. So timing it is a function of timing the entire package and limited by the last piece you can unlock.

The nuance is that you also need to distribute a NOD and a competitor. That is, the spread of religions in any case will have to be modified, it seems to me. And by applying a modification to revolutionary Marxism, you can get a more historical version.
My intention with NOD is for it to be a late game religion with something of a twist in that it combines with FFH style civ spawn and unique technology mechanics. As in, the guy that gets the nod holy city can build a wonder (no GP required) that spawns NOD as a civilization and lets him switch to it. And that also triggers an event that (if I can code this) hands the entire empire of that player to the NOD civ and (I know I can code this one) spreads NOD to a bunch of cities on the planet randomly. So it gets a head start. And players that convert to NOD get access to unique Tiberium related techs as well as some other mechanics thus making it feel like a FFH religion more than a vanilla CIV one.

But I don't want to go too deep down that path because my development plan for this is roughly:
  1. Create a pre-alpha that has the tech tree end at the end of Red Alert 2 with placeholder art and assets
  2. Fill out the art and assets whilst bug testing and balance testing
  3. Add Yuri, turrets and other things that require DLL coding with placeholder art and assets
  4. Fill out the art and assets whilst bug testing and balance testing
  5. Finally add the Tiberium timeline with placeholder art and assets
  6. Fill out the art and assets whilst bug testing and balance testing
I think that possibly, optimistically I might be able to complete step 1 this year. Maybe. Spring next year is more realistic. But even in the most optimistic timeline of events the Tiberium stuff wouldn't be done by this time next year or possibly the year after that. And a lot can change until that point.
 
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See my comment on how religions and civics map to the real world vs game for an understanding of how I view this.

Well, the nuance is that conditional Stalinism as an ideology was widespread and actively influenced the political situation far beyond the borders of the USSR and the Soviet bloc. At the same time, he competed with historically earlier alternative leftists

My intention with NOD is for it to be a late game religion with something of a twist in that it combines with FFH style civ spawn

Now it's clear. However, we still have a competitor of the NOD, which, without cheap missionary work, faces a marginal status that is incomparable with the old ideologies.

I think that possibly, optimistically I might be able to complete step 1 this year. Maybe.

In principle, I can edit ХML and remember how to insert units is also not a problem. Plus, the principle of "whatever you do, the main thing is not to work," has not been canceled either. So I can handle part of the routine quite well.
 
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The idea is very interesting. But,
1. as far as I understand, it requires serious modding
Not really.
Events can do this:
  1. Random chance to fire event if X religion is present in city.
  2. Spawn random amount of barbarian units.

Does not really correspond to historical nuances
Doesn't matter. The C&C universe has Tesla, prism and other nonsense weapons and other stuff, that are inaccurate not only historically but scientifically too. So let's not hang on such negligible inaccuracies. Civ4 has some too. I understand that this part of history may be your thing but the aim is not a historically accurate mod. It's more of a diesel/nuclear/cyber-punk world.


Now it's clear. However, we still have a competitor of the NOD, which, without cheap missionary work, faces a marginal status that is incomparable with the old ideologies.
There are other ways to spread a religion, not only missionaries. We can tinker with buildings religion spread rate, have events and python/dll code spread it. So no worries ;)
 
Another thing to add, although again this era is very much not on the schedule right now, is that I do not necessarily want the late game to be a duality between just NOD and GDI. If I can get FFH style religion linked techs and units to work that promises to leave room for a nonaligned path as well. Anyway, enough about this for now. I have a big job related thing tomorrow and depending on how that goes I might be free or very busy in the next weeks. So wish me luck.
 
Doesn't matter. The C&C universe has Tesla, prism and other nonsense weapons and other stuff, that are inaccurate not only historically but scientifically too. So let's not hang on such negligible inaccuracies.

However, why allow inaccuracies if you can avoid them by simply using an adequate historical prototype :) ? For example, in Russia there were two main trends of anarchism - relatively peaceful supporters of Kropotkin and the so-called "unmotivators"/"Black Banner" (the same, yeah).
Unmotivated - because they practiced terror against any, however small, representative of the government or the bourgeoisie. And yes, one of the centers of activity of the "Black Banner" was... Bialystok. Featured in the Second Tiberium War.
And these devils were not exclusively a Russian glitch. In general, this mechanic may a) not be limited to anarchists b) it will also work for late game. The NOD is a terrorist organization. The spread of "religion" = random generation of NOD infantry in the vicinity of the city, etc.

There are other ways to spread a religion, not only missionaries. We can tinker with buildings religion spread rate, have events and python/dll code spread it. So no worries ;)


Well, I didn't mean specific ways to increase the rate of spread of "religion", but the fact of the fast and the furious. Just cheap missionaries is the easiest option.

However, we are really getting ahead of ourselves.
 
Well, knock on wood I think things went reasonably well. Hopefully. It's not every day a necromancer offers to pay you way too much gold to ask questions to go hunting after barbarians holding some pointless trinket for his collection.

Back on topic however I'll try and finish up a skeletonized version of the tech tree by the end of the week for you to see, job permitting.
 
Random question. Do you guys think that it's possible to code a building such that it disables all Great Person growth in the city it's built in?
 
Random question. Do you guys think that it's possible to code a building such that it disables all Great Person growth in the city it's built in?
-200% :gp:
 
Some thoughts on civics:
  1. I think that there is no place in the mod for a slavery equivalent. Sacrificing population to boost production is just not something that I see being in keeping with the timeline of a world where Hitler was erased from the timeline.

  2. The religion category should remain mostly the same, just renamed. It controls the dynamic of religion spread and that's just too important to cut out or change significantly other than new names and lore.

  3. Some civics will be restricted by religion but these should be very limited in number like in FFH. I do not want to have a complex interplay of X allows Y but forbids Z because I personally don't like such systems.
    Also, because they all fall into the Tiberium era they are not shown here.

  4. Getting rid of some of the pre-modern civics such as vassalage in my view necessitates the addition of a new category that handles just the military side of things.

  5. For the other civics I've looked at the suggestions put forward here as well as some of my own ideas and come up with the following. Note that all names are WIP.
Government
I do not think this category needs to change much. It covers all the bases neatly and what little needs to change I think I've covered.
  1. ???
    default civic - no effect

  2. Absolutism / Dictatorship
    Vanilla monarchy civic but with high instead of medium upkeep.

  3. Representation
    Same as vanilla. I like this civic and I do not think it needs to change.

  4. Federation
    See City States from FFH. Basically a civic that reduces maintenance for when you want to build wide.

  5. Universal Suffrage
    Same as vanilla. I do not really think this needs to change.
Labor
This category needs the most work in my view.
  1. Transitional Workforce
    default civic - no effect

  2. ???

  3. ???

  4. Public works
    Same as vanilla serfdom. I think it fits both lore vise and as a mechanic that needs to be retained.

  5. Service Economy
    Vanilla Cast System. I like this civic and think it represent sour current western economy based off specialist services rather than manufacturing well.
Legal
This category needs some work. Same as Labor.
  1. ???
    default civic - no effect

  2. ???

  3. ???

  4. Police State
    +25%:espionage:in all cities
    +1:c5happy: from Security Bureau, Prison etc.

  5. Free Speech
    Same as vanilla.
Economy
I do not think this category needs to change much. The vanilla civics do a good job and translate well into the period this mod covers. So there is no need to change those. The only real change is the addition of some extra stuff.
  1. Decentralization
    default civic - no effect

  2. Free Market
    Same as vanilla.

  3. State Property
    Same as vanilla.

  4. Autarky
    Vanilla mercantilism

  5. Environmentalism
    Same as vanilla

  6. War economy
    A version of the Bannor Crusade Civic from FFH.
Military
  1. ???
    default civic - no effect

  2. Conscription
    Can conscript units from the Infantry line.

  3. Professional
    Bonus XP - basically the bonus from vassalage has been moved here.

  4. Fanaticism
    -50% war weariness
    Can train certain unique units.

  5. I am not sure what to do here. Part of me wants it to be some sort of civic to represent the late game use of robots, cyborgs and cloned units.
Religion / Ideology
I do not think this category needs to change much. Things need to be renamed but that's about it for now at least.


Take a good look at this and share your comments and suggestions. But if you do suggest civics for the empty slots please keep in mind to design with mechanics in mind first and lore second. History is wide enough that we can always find an explanation for any mechanic. But bad mechanics can't be excused by anything. Also note that this list deliberately excludes any Tiberium or Yuri related content. Yes I have plans for those but not now.
 
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